DaveS said:
There interpretations were based on the Word of God just like yours. Some of them were disciples of and were directly taught by the apostles themselves. Others were only once removed from the apostles.
Doc
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Early Christians Believed in 3 Heavens
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There interpretations were based on the Word of God just like yours. Some of them were disciples of and were directly taught by the apostles themselves. Others were only once removed from the apostles.
Doc
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Ran77 said:No, that sounds correct to me.
I believe my original point was that the LDS interpretations of the scriptures are very similar to the early Christians - not that they are an exact duplicate. However, I probably am not seeing the significance that this difference makes as you are. Feel free to elaborate.
I thought I did in post #43. I highlighted this portion of your post in my response:
Here you are saying persons get promoted to the next office/level. Please elaborate on this.
Also, you are saying that eventually, a person can attain perfection. My understanding of lds reasoning is this means a person can be like Jesus or greater (a god of his own world). My understanding is also that this "perfection" can only be obtained by being in the highest of the CK.
So, I am confused as to what you are actually saying? Please feel free to elaborate.
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fatboys
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Fit4Christ said:
I guess what really irritates me is that you know what we teach. Time and time again we have taught that we can be perfect. It is commanded that we do so. We can become like Jesus only as we approach perfection through obedience. Through our mortal lives this would not be possible except through the atonement of Christ. And you know we have never taught that we can equal or be greater than Christ or God. So my question would be, why do you continue to ask? Is that you really did not understand through some confusing remarks that have been made? I really do not understand.
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Rescued One
...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
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buddy mack
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what if i were stuck lets say on the lower heaven, and i wanted to visit my sister who was on the second heaven, but my wife who is on the hightest of heavens and got word to heavenly father that i was not a good boy here on earth and she wish that i not visit my sister, but she wouldnt mind if i may a visit to see the kids who are with her, so heavenly father give permission for me to visit the kids and when i get there i am forced to pay back child support for the past 10 million years, what do i do then?
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buddy mack said:
Pray for forgiveness. "Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors..."
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Rescued One
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fatboys said:
Your Prophet Lorenzo Snow believed he could be as great as God.
"When he was a young man, Lorenzo Snow (who later became the 5th LDS Prophet) was promised by the Lord through the Patriarch to the (LDS) Church that through obedience to the gospel he could become as great as God, and you cannot wish to be greater." (Search These Commandments, 1984 Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, page 151)
"Elder (Lorenzo) Snow expressed this new found understanding in these words: As man now is, God once was; As God now is, man may be. Later the Prophet Joseph Smith assured him: Brother Snow, that is true gospel doctrine, and it is a revelation from God to you." (Search These Commandments, 1984 Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, page 152)
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Rescued One
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Fit4Christ said:yeah, I hear there's an opening as an lds spiritual prison guard...
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buddy mack said:
You can't pay it back then anyway. If you're assigned to the lowest heaven, you have to stay there forever and you can't visit people in higher heavens. Sorry.
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Fit4Christ said:
This is your contribution to the topic in post 43: Hold the fort! Confusion ! I thought that the lds cannot progress beyond their level of heaven?? How can you be promoted, even up to "a perfect man" if you cannot cross the boundaries of your kingdom levels?
I'm reading it and I do not see any elaboration on; how being very similar rather than being exact duplicates, makes a significant difference to the topic. How does this apply to early Christians believing in 3 Heavens?
However, your question about crossing the boundaries of kingdom levels? The progress in question all happened within the same kingdom boundary. Only progress within the Celestial kingdom is being considered. I don't know if that is where our confusion may be coming from. The Celestial kingdom is also believed to be sub-divided into three levels.
Keep in mind that the LDS believe a person must be baptized into Christs Church in order to enter the Celestial kingdom. This analogy speaks of those filling offices within the Church. Considering that the Telestial kingdom would contain those who make no attempt to follow Gods laws, it would be inappropriate to use this analogy and refer to them as deacons. Deacons are believers at an early stage of their learning and development.
Fit4Christ said:
On which part of it; the mortal side of the analogy that compares our mortal experience in the Church, or the heavenly side of the analogy where the analogy teaches that we can expect to serve and grow like we did in mortality?
I would have to do some study to be sure I understood what the LDS view is regarding progress within the Celestial kingdom. Limits to a person's Celestial glory is tied to the ordinances that are performed here in mortality. With that in mind some progress would not be possible. For example, without a temple marriage I could not progress to the highest level of the Celestial kingdom.
If I were to compare the text, from this section of the apocrahpa, to our beliefs I would say that this is the progress of those who have done what is neccessary during mortality to obtain the Celestial kingdom. Then during the hereafter they will gain knowledge and learn how to apply it. They would do this by serving in, what we understand here, to be offices / callings. This would continue, moving up in understanding and responsibilty of office until we reached a point where no more could be added to us. We would have reached the pinnacle of what man might become - the perfect man.
Fit4Christ said:
I think my comments above address this.
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Ran77 said:
I stand corrected. The they is most certainly the presbyters mentioned above that chapter and not the heretics to whom the book is addressing. I believe where I went wrong is trying to tie that part into the three heavens part your post was asserting. After reading your post again I found that even though your post was about the three heavens that part was only about progression on earth. I didnt understand where you saw Irenaeus speaking of people going to different heavens according to their works and with that though in mind I misread his statement. I apologize for my misguided accusation.
With that I must withdraw myself from this discussion having damaged my credibility with my error.
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Tawhano said:
I would like to say that I have a great amount of respect for a person who is willing to keep their mind open during a discussion. I see someone that can apologize for having misunderstood a presentation/argument as somene with an open mind and looking for the truth.
I tip my hat to you sir.
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Ran77 said:
The significance or similarity was this idea of progression. It was my understanding that such a thing cannot happen in the lds afterlife.
So you are saying that once one is assigned the CK lower level, it is possible to progress to the 2nd and/or then highest level, eventually? After meeting certain requirements, I'm sure, right?
I understand the significance of lds baptism to the CK.
I'm only talking about the afterlife side of things.
Please do so, and share what you've come up with.
If someone is assigned the CK, highest level, due to what they have done in their mortal state here on earth, do they still have to work on achieving this "pinnacle" or "perfect man" state of being? They just may start at a higher "office" or "calling" and have less to overcome to become perfect?
I think my comments above address this.
I think so, too.
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buddy mack
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in this vast universe of ours why can't there be unlimited amount of heavens, why just yesterday i was at the golf course during sundown, the temperter went from like 105 to 104 the birds were singing, the deer were eating, and i was scorning, and as i was stare-ing out at the dark blue skies, i was thinking, this is what heaven must be like. the greens were green the flowers were bloomed in vast amount of colors, even in the summer time. it was such peace and tranquillity. for one moment in time all was at peace with the world, then from behind my back came a fighter jet and scared the U-no what out of me.
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Tawhano said:
On the contrary, a man who is willing to concede his error, gains credibility.
At least in my book.
FWIW
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gort
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Tawhano said:
The first 3 books deal with heretics of Iranaeus' day. The 5th book, which Ran quoted from does speak of biblical truths.
However, there is an admitted translation problem, particularly the last 5 chapters, with the greek translated into latin in the 1500's. That, coupled with the obscurity of Iranaeus' writings (at times) may pose a problem.
I'll provide the documentation this eve.
Regardless, we'll work with what we got.
You does get up in the morning and put yer pants on one leg at a time, don't ya?
<><
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Ran77 said:Daneel started the LDS Validy thread which challenged LDS claims that our beliefs most closely mirrored the beliefs of early Christians. Since then I have spent a good amount of time looking into it. While there is nothing wrong with Daneel's thread, I decided to start new threads based on a single topic rather than lump them all in together. I did this because I have been finding a lot of material for the LDS position and would rather keep the discussion on a single topic at a time.
I decided to address the topic of the LDS view of three heavens. More accurately this should probably be refered to as the LDS map of existence. In it we have three kingdoms/levels of glory to which mortals will sent after their judgment and a level of no glory which is Outer Darkness. The three kingdoms are seen as the Telestial, the Terrestrial, and the Celestial kingdoms. The Celestial kingdom is also believed to be further divided in three levels. Also, this map of existense would include the place where souls go while they await judgment. This temporary dwelling is divided into two places and are known as Paradise and the Spirit Prison.
The reason I chose this as the first topic to explore is that I felt it was the most uniquely LDS belief that I could discuss. I don't know of any other faith (and I could be wrong) that shares our view on this topic. If the most divergent of our beliefs is supported by the early Christians...Well, I think you get the point.
I am going to make a series of posts. I have a lot of material and I don't want any single post to be too arduous to get through. I will also group them by author. The first one will be the shortest segment since it is sharing this post with my opening dialogue.
IRENAEUS
This verse makes a very unmistakable statement that a distinction exists about where we will be in the hereafter.
[They say, moreover], that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundred-fold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold: for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second will dwell in paradise, the last will inhabit the city; and that was on this account the Lord declared, In My Fathers house are many mansions. For all things belong to God, who supplies all with a suitable dwelling-place; even as His Word says, that a share is allotted to all by the Father, according as each person is or shall be worthy.
Three separations are mentioned; as well as, the inclusion that everyone will have a suitable dwelling-place. The criteria for this are based on what has been produced. Those who produce greater works are given a greater reward. Consistently through these texts, people are judged on their works with greater works receiving greater reward and those wanting to claim that works are unnecessary receiving a mediocre reward.
This is followed immediately with this:
The presbyters, the disciples of the apostles, affirm that this is the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved, and that they advance through steps of this nature; also that they ascend through the Spirit to the Son, and through the Son to the Father, and that in due time the Son will yield up His work to the Father, even as it is said by the apostle, For He must reign till He hath put all enemies under His feet.
Separation is again connected to the Spirit, the Son, and the Father. While this talks about gradation, I believe it references our progress while here on Earth.
I believe the bible only identifys 2 heavens, the first and the second heavens. First heaven is the sky and the second heaven is the spiritual realm where gods throne is.
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Genesis 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
that would be the sky heaven
Matthew 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
and that would be the other heaven, the kingdom of heaven. not the sky.
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2ducklow said:
Maybe someone who knows more about the original (greek?) can shed some light on it. Based on the english translation I feel that we are talking about two different meanings of the word being compared to each other as if they were the same.
I agree that the first usage you site is talking about the sky. So, at this point lets continue to use that term instead. The second is talking about the place where God dwells and the hoped for destination by all of us in the afterlife. I don't see that this qualifies them to be the first heaven and the second heaven, because it is lumping together two unlike things.
I have heard the argument (I believe GWiT presented it on this thread already) that the three heavens are sky, outer space, and God's abode. The first two compare like things; the sky exists above the ground and outer space exists above that. Where is God's abode? Is it literally above outer space as with the relationship between the first two? We know that it isn't, but I will give it to you than at the time the biblical texts were written that they did not know this.
In that sense, the abode of God could be considered above outer space. Does that belief negate the possibility that the three kingdoms / glories I have been discussing are above outer space? Will everyone have a dwelling in the afterlife above outer space.
The heavens and the Kingdom of Heaven are not like items.
I think this line of logic would go farther if you can produce a verse, or a series of concurrent verses, that discusses these different heavens all at the same time.
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