Early Christians Believed in 3 Heavens

Ran77 · Aug 16, 2005

skylark1 said:
From what I have read of the writings of the Early Church Fathers, at times they contradict each other. I believe at times they were simply offering their opinion. These men did not claim to be prophets.

Did someone claim that these men were prophets?

My premise is that early Christians interpreted (opinion) the Bible in the same manner which the LDS do today. I don't see where the confusion on this comes in.

skylark1 · Aug 16, 2005

Ran77 said:
Did someone claim that these men were prophets?

My premise is that early Christians interpreted (opinion) the Bible in the same manner which the LDS do today. I don't see where the confusion on this comes in.

Hi Ran,

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I appreciate the time that you put into it. If you actually read my post, you should notice that I did not claim that anyone claimed that these men were prophets. You would alos notice that I am not confused. Perhaps if you quoted my entire post, rather than the small portion that you did, it would become more evident to you. Maybe this last portion would have helped:

Therefore, while a great deal of his writing contains sound and valuable exposition of the Scriptures, one should be careful in accepting all that he wrote. Nowhere in scripture are we told that the less worthy Christians will only be in the presence of the Holy Ghost, those a little more worthy in the resence of the Son and Holy Spirit, and only the most worthy in the presence of the Father.

Fit4Christ · Aug 16, 2005

Ran77 said:
I noticed that you erred on the understanding of this passage. That is, in thinking that the glory of the position people hold is not connected to the level of heaven in which they exist. All of it fits nicely with the LDS beliefs. In the clouds (heaven), we will serve in the heavenly version of deacons. The knowledge and duties of this position would be less than the higher offices/levels of heaven and would be comparatively lesser in glory. Promotion would move them to the next office/level and entail more knowledge and duties in order to fulfill this position and have an increased amount of glory because of it. Eventually, the highest office/level would be reached when they gained enough knowledge to perform the duties required of a perfect man.

Hold the fort! Confusion

! I thought that the lds cannot progress beyond their level of heaven?? How can you be promoted, even up to "a perfect man" if you cannot cross the boundaries of your kingdom levels?

It mirrors, then as now, the priesthood ranks. A member of the priesthood in today's LDS Church has duties of his office in which he serves. There is a corresponding (earthly) glory attached to it. More knowledgable men, who are willing to perform the duties of service, may be promoted to Bishop and eventually to Stake President (or similarly high calling). A greater earthly glory is attached to these men because of the knowledge they have obtained and their willingness to serve long hours.

The LDS believe there will be important work to do throughout eternity. Glory being attached to an office - which is based on what level of heaven you obtain - doesn't conflict with our beliefs.

Since you mentioned it, why don't you expand on this in my thread about the ECF and the Priesthood? I only asked 4 simple questions.

Ran77 · Aug 16, 2005

Tawhano said:
And that terminology is taken out of context by you because of the very same LDS teachings as it is with the scripture in which Origen quotes from.

Then it won't be necessary to repeat what I said concerning Origen. Just read it again.

Tawhano said:
He isnt speaking of glories as in places or heavens, he is speaking of glories as in the position the person holds, he is talking about individuals not individual heavens. He confirms what you deny in that the scripture is talking about the glory of the individual and not the glory of a different heaven.

Well, let's see:

"there are numerous individuals, especially those who, coming from the school of Marcion, and Valentinus, and Basilides, have heard that there are souls of different natures, who object to us, that it cannot consist with the justice of God in creating the word to assign to some of His creatures an abode in the heavens, and not only to give such a better habitation, but also to grant them a higher and more honourable position; to favour others with the grant of principalities; to bestow powers upon some, dominions on others; to confer upon some the most honourable seats in the celestial tribunals; to enable some to shine with more resplendent glory, and to glitter with a starry splendour; to give to some the glory of the sun, to others the glory of the moon, to others the glory of the stars; to cause one star to differ from another star in glory."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure abodes and habitations are places and not offices. Your assertion is incorrect. This discusses a better location that is tied to a more honorable position - pretty much like I stated in my last post.

Tawhano said:
I dont think so, you are grasping at straws. There is no mention of the three levels of anything here. You pulled this phrase out of context and assign your own interpretation to it. He is speaking of the three levels that make up what he calls the world; the lower part, the earth and heaven. This is what the entire book is about, the world and Gods dealings with its inhabitants.

Ok, let's see:

"may be raised regarding all celestial and terrestrial creatures, and even those of the lower world as well"

Celestial, that's one; terrestrial, that's two; and those of the lower world, that's three. This discusses how the creatures will be raised and as part of this it states that the third classification will be raised of the lower world. In order for there to be a lower there has to be a higher, and in this case it is the celestial and terrestrial that are mention as a part of this sentence. The "and even" is an inclusion of the lower world to the previously mentioned celestial and terrestrial. In simpler terms, it means that three like things are being compared here. The last of the items tells us that it involves worlds, or as we like to refer to them "levels of heaven."

Tawhano said:
I dont think you really researched this at all.

I'll classify this with your conclusion about my reasons for doing so.

However, I do love to point out a flawed argument. To not have researched it at all would mean that I took no (zero, zilch, nada) actions to discover this information. The fact that I produced eight (?) posts on the topic is evidence that I have done some research. This is a careless statement that weighs against a person's credibility.

Tawhano said:
All you have done so far is pull stuff out that has the same words you use and assign your definition to it. Reading the entire text shows that the author isnt portraying that definition at all.

Obviously you haven't read the entire text. These seem to be unfounded assumptions. Feel free to trot out the surrounding text to prove that this is not what the author was proposing.

Tawhano said:
I think at best you can show that these church fathers had some different views than the religions they professed. I think its a stretch to say they believed as you do.

Prove it.

Ran77 · Aug 16, 2005

intrepid said:
Your conclusion here seems to say that Christ will not be in the CK with Heavenly Father. My understanding is that achieving the Third Level of the CK (the pinnacle) results in that person, and his eternal family, becoming a God figure with dominion over his realm (like Heavenly Father). If correct, isn't that what will eventually happen to Christ? If not Him, then who?

If that's not correct, then wouldn't Christ at least be in the CK with Heavenly Father? Again I must ask, if He can't make it, then who could?

In either case, Christ would not be in the TK at all.

No doubt, Christ is worthy of the Celestial Kingdom. The LDS do not believe otherwise. This separation, between Christ and God the Father, is more stewardship. As far as I have been able to read both of Them will dwell in the Celestial kingdom.

As to Christ gaining dominion over His realm - it seems as though Christ will gain dominion over the Terrestrial kingdom. At this point we have no scripture, or opinion of early Christian leaders, to give us further clarification. I hope that answered your question.

Ran77 · Aug 16, 2005

skylark1 said:
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I appreciate the time that you put into it.

I's sorry you took it that way.

skylark1 said:
If you actually read my post, you should notice that I did not claim that anyone claimed that these men were prophets. You would alos notice that I am not confused.

I too am glad for your thoughtful response.

If you actually read my post, you should notice that I did not claim that you were confused. I perceive confusion and have placed no blame for it on anyone. Hey, it could be my lack of communication skills.

skylark1 said:
Perhaps if you quoted my entire post, rather than the small portion that you did, it would become more evident to you. Maybe this last portion would have helped:
Therefore, while a great deal of his writing contains sound and valuable exposition of the Scriptures, one should be careful in accepting all that he wrote. Nowhere in scripture are we told that the less worthy Christians will only be in the presence of the Holy Ghost, those a little more worthy in the resence of the Son and Holy Spirit, and only the most worthy in the presence of the Father.

Actually, I believe my reading of your post would have more to do with the content of it becoming more evident than the act of quoting it. And I did read it all.

Since I am not claiming that any of this is scripture, the fact that nowhere in scripture does it say something, has little bearing on what I have been trying to communicate. Perhaps if you read all of my posts it would become evident that I am focusing on how early Christians believed about these topics and how they interpreted scriptures related to them.

Ran77 · Aug 16, 2005

Fit4Christ said:
Hold the fort! Confusion ! I thought that the lds cannot progress beyond their level of heaven?? How can you be promoted, even up to "a perfect man" if you cannot cross the boundaries of your kingdom levels?

I believe the divisions being discussed here are in the Celestial kingdom. Likening it to offices of the Church it would be most logical to assume that it is discussing members of the Church and not humanity in whole.

Fit4Christ said:
Since you mentioned it, why don't you expand on this in my thread about the ECF and the Priesthood? I only asked 4 simple questions.

If I get the opportunity - I might.

Fit4Christ · Aug 16, 2005

Ran77 said:
I believe the divisions being discussed here are in the Celestial kingdom. Likening it to offices of the Church it would be most logical to assume that it is discussing members of the Church and not humanity in whole.

Still, I thought that, according to the lds POV, once you were assigned a Celestial Kingdom, say the lowest level of CK, you could not progress beyond that. I'm pretty sure that's what I was told on a thread recently. So, you still lost me as how any progression can occur. Was I told incorrectly previously?

If I get the opportunity - I might.

That would be great.

skylark1 · Aug 16, 2005

Ran77 said:
If you actually read my post, you should notice that I did not claim that you were confused. I perceive confusion and have placed no blame for it on anyone. Hey, it could be my lack of communication skills.

I read your post. If you were not implying that I was confused, then I do not know who you were referring to when you responded to my post.

Actually, I believe my reading of your post would have more to do with the content of it becoming more evident than the act of quoting it. And I did read it all.

Since I am not claiming that any of this is scripture, the fact that nowhere in scripture does it say something, has little bearing on what I have been trying to communicate. Perhaps if you read all of my posts it would become evident that I am focusing on how early Christians believed about these topics and how they interpreted scriptures related to them.

I read all of your post, and also took the time to locate and read the quotes that you gave in context. I do not think that all of the quotes that you provided reflect the same opinion that Irenaeus offfered, but maybe I'll have time to respond to some of those later.

You wrote:

Did someone claim that these men were prophets?

My premise is that early Christians interpreted (opinion) the Bible in the same manner which the LDS do today. I don't see where the confusion on this comes in.

I disagree.

CorTortilla · Aug 16, 2005

skylark1 said:
Hi Corey,

Where in the Catechism of the Catholic Church can I find this belief?

What I read is the following, and there is no mention there being three levels of heaven:

1023 Those who die in God's grace and friendship and are perfectly purified live for ever with Christ. They are like God forever, for they "see him as he is," face to face:596

By virtue of our apostolic authority, we define the following: According to the general disposition of God, the souls of all the saints and other faithful who died after receiving Christ's holy Baptism (provided they were not in need of purification when they died, or, if they then did need or will need some purification, when they have been purified after death,) already before they take up their bodies again and before the general judgment - and this since the Ascension of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ into heaven - have been, are and will be in heaven, in the heavenly Kingdom and celestial paradise with Christ, joined to the company of the holy angels. Since the Passion and death of our Lord Jesus Christ, these souls have seen and do see the divine essence with an intuitive vision, and even face to face, without the mediation of any creature.597

1024 This perfect life with the Most Holy Trinity - this communion of life and love with the Trinity, with the Virgin Mary, the angels and all the blessed - is called "heaven." Heaven is the ultimate end and fulfillment of the deepest human longings, the state of supreme, definitive happiness.

1025 To live in heaven is "to be with Christ."598 The elect live "in Christ," but they retain, or rather find, their true identity, their own name. 599
For life is to be with Christ; where Christ is, there is life, there is the kingdom.600

1026 By his death and Resurrection, Jesus Christ has "opened" heaven to us. The life of the blessed consists in the full and perfect posession of the truits of the redemption accomplished by Christ. He makes partners in his heavenly glorification those who have believed in him and remained faithful to his will. Heaven is the blessed commuinity of all who are perfectly incorporated into Christ.

1027 This mystery of blessed communion with God and all who are in Christ is beyond all understanding and description. Scripture speaks of it in images: life, light, peace, wedding feast, wine of the kingdom, the FAther's house, the heavenly Jerusalem, paradise: "no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived what God has prpared for those who love him."601

1028 Because of his transcendence, God cannot be seen as he is, unless he himself opens up his mystery to man's immediate contemplation and gives him the capacity for it. The Church calls this comtemplation of God in his heavenly glory "the beatific vision.":
How great will your glory and happiness be, to be allowed to see God,to be honored with sharing the joy of salvation and eternal light with Christ your Lord and God, . . . to delight in the joy of immortality in the Kingdom of heaven with the righteous and God's friends.602

1029 In the glory of heaven the blessed continue joyfully to fulfill God's will in relation to other men and to all creation. Already they reign with Christ; with him "they shall reign for ever and ever."603

2 Corinthians 12:2, I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know-God knows.

skylark1 · Aug 16, 2005

CoreyZallow said:
2 Corinthians 12:2, I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know-God knows.

The Jews taught that the first heaven was the atmosphere, the second was the sun, moon, and stars, and the third was where God's throne is located.

What were you taught in your catechism class concerning the existence of three levels of heaven? I saw no mention of this in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

CorTortilla · Aug 16, 2005

skylark1 said:
The Jews taught that the first heaven was the atmosphere, the second was the sun, moon, and stars, and the third was where God's throne is located.

What were you taught in your catechism class concerning the existence of three levels of heaven? I saw no mention of this in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Well, somebody asked what Heaven looked like according tot he Bible, and my teacher gave us a few Scripture passages including this one. Then somebody asked "So, Heaven has 3 different levels?" And he said "Well, yes, thats what this verse seems to be implying."

Doc T · Aug 16, 2005

skylark1 said:
You wrote:
Did someone claim that these men were prophets?

My premise is that early Christians interpreted (opinion) the Bible in the same manner which the LDS do today. I don't see where the confusion on this comes in.

I disagree.

I shall look forward to your argument to the contrary.

Doc

~

Doc T · Aug 16, 2005

skylark1 said:
The Jews taught that the first heaven was the atmosphere, the second was the sun, moon, and stars, and the third was where God's throne is located.

If you don't mind, could you provide the source for this information.

Thanks

Doc

~

skylark1 · Aug 16, 2005

Doc T said:
If you don't mind, could you provide the source for this information.

Thanks

Doc

~

I don't recall where I first read this, but a quick search turned up the following:

Heaven

(1.) Definitions., The phrase "heaven and earth" is used to indicate the whole universe (Gen. 1:1; Jer. 23:24; Acts 17:24). According to the Jewish notion there were three heavens, (a) The firmament, as "fowls of the heaven" (Gen. 2:19; 7:3, 23; Ps. 8:8, etc.), "the eagles of heaven" (Lam. 4:19), etc. (b) The starry heavens (Deut. 17:3; Jer. 8:2; Matt. 24:29). (c) "The heaven of heavens," or "the third heaven" (Deut. 10:14; 1 Kings 8: 27; Ps. 115:16; 148:4; 2 Cor. 12:2).

(2.) Meaning of words in the original, (a) The usual Hebrew word for "heavens" is shamayim, a plural form meaning "heights," "elevations" (Gen. 1:1; 2:1). (b) The Hebrew word marom is also used (Ps. 68:18; 93:4; 102:19, etc.) as equivalent to shamayim, "high places," "heights." (c) Heb. galgal, literally a "wheel," is rendered "heaven" in Ps. 77:18 (R.V., "whirlwind"). (d) Heb. shahak, rendered "sky" (Deut. 33:26; Job 37:18; Ps. 18:11), plural "clouds" (Job 35:5; 36:28; Ps. 68:34, marg. "heavens"), means probably the firmament. (e) Heb. rakia is closely connected with (d), and is rendered "firmamentum" in the Vulgate, whence our "firmament" (Gen. 1:6; Deut. 33:26, etc.), regarded as a solid expanse.

(3.) Metaphorical meaning of term. Isa. 14:13, 14; "doors of heaven" (Ps. 78:23); heaven "shut" (1 Kings 8:35); "opened" (Ezek. 1:1). (See 1 Chr. 21:16.) (4.) Spiritual meaning. The place of the everlasting blessedness of the righteous; the abode of departed spirits. (a) Christ calls it his "Father's house" (John 14:2). (b) It is called "paradise" (Luke 23:43; 2 Cor. 12:4; Rev. 2:7). (c) "The heavenly Jerusalem" (Gal. 4: 26; Heb. 12:22; Rev. 3:12). (d) The "kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 25:1; James 2:5). (e) The "eternal kingdom" (2 Pet. 1:11). (f) The "eternal inheritance" (1 Pet. 1: 4; Heb. 9:15). (g) The "better country" (Heb. 11:14, 16). (h) The blessed are said to "sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob," and to be "in Abraham's bosom" (Luke 16:22; Matt. 8:11); to "reign with Christ" (2 Tim. 2:12); and to enjoy "rest" (Heb. 4:10, 11). In heaven the blessedness of the righteous consists in the possession of "life everlasting," "an eternal weight of glory" (2 Cor. 4:17), an exemption from all sufferings for ever, a deliverance from all evils (2 Cor. 5:1, 2) and from the society of the wicked (2 Tim. 4:18), bliss without termination, the "fulness of joy" for ever (Luke 20:36; 2 Cor. 4:16, 18; 1 Pet. 1:4; 5:10; 1 John 3:2). The believer's heaven is not only a state of everlasting blessedness, but also a "place", a place "prepared" for them (John 14:2). (Easton Illustrated Dictionary)

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txo/heaven.htm

Heaven

There are four Hebrew words thus rendered in the Old Testament which we may briefly notice. Rakiâa , Authorized Version, firmament. [FIRMAMENT] Shamayim . This is the word used in the expression "the heaven and the earth," or "the upper and lower regions." (Genesis 1:1) Marom , used for heaven in (Psalms 18:16; Isaiah 24:18; Jeremiah 25:30). Properly speaking it means a mountain as in (Psalms 102:19; Ezekiel 17:23) Shechakim , "expanses," with reference to the extent of heaven. ( 33:26; Job 35:5) St. Paulâs expression "third heaven," (2 Corinthians 12:2) had led to much conjecture. Grotius said that the Jews divided the heaven into three parts, viz., The air or atmosphere, where clouds gather; The firmament, in which the sun, moon and stars are fixed; The upper heaven, the abode of God and his angels, the invisible realm of holiness and happiness the home of the children of God.

Source: Smith's Bible Dictionary

Ran77 · Aug 16, 2005

Fit4Christ said:
Still, I thought that, according to the lds POV, once you were assigned a Celestial Kingdom, say the lowest level of CK, you could not progress beyond that. I'm pretty sure that's what I was told on a thread recently. So, you still lost me as how any progression can occur. Was I told incorrectly previously?

No, that sounds correct to me.

I believe my original point was that the LDS interpretations of the scriptures are very similar to the early Christians - not that they are an exact duplicate. However, I probably am not seeing the significance that this difference makes as you are. Feel free to elaborate.

Ran77 · Aug 17, 2005

skylark1 said:
I read your post. If you were not implying that I was confused, then I do not know who you were referring to when you responded to my post.

I wasn't implying that anyone was confused. I said I didn't know where the confusion came from. There is a big difference between recognizing that a series of statements seem to be talking about two separate concepts and making a statement about a person's state of mind. Is there a reason that you seem to want to insist that I made this about a person rather than a situation? I am stating that this was not about a person. If you believe differently, then feel free to call me a liar. Or maybe we can both come to an agreement that I am not calling anyone confused and move on with the topic of the thread. (I prefer the second one.)

skylark1 · Aug 17, 2005

Ran77 said:
I wasn't implying that anyone was confused. I said I didn't know where the confusion came from. There is a big difference between recognizing that a series of statements seem to be talking about two separate concepts and making a statement about a person's state of mind. Is there a reason that you seem to want to insist that I made this about a person rather than a situation? I am stating that this was not about a person. If you believe differently, then feel free to call me a liar. Or maybe we can both come to an agreement that I am not calling anyone confused and move on with the topic of the thread. (I prefer the second one.)

I thought that I had moved on with the topic of the thread.

Edit: Ran, I didn't insist what your intentions were about anything, nor did I call you a liar, nor do I know why you are being so nasty about this. I don't know why I seem to be having such a difficult time communicating. I said that *I* didn't know who you were speaking of. Perhaps I am dense.

I also did not believe or imply that you considered the writings of the early church fathers to be scripture. My point was that the quote that I referenced was quite possibly one lone man's opinion.

skylark1 · Aug 17, 2005

Ran77 said:
THE SHEPHERD HERMAS

III Hermas, Similitude VIII,

The Eighth Similitude deals with being rewarded according to the measure of a persons repentance and good works. In the first chapter an angel hands branches unto people and when he gathers them again they are separated according to the fruitfulness of the branches. (An obvious reference to works.) I count twelve different distinctions among the branches, and hence separations among the people. I dont know if the number of distinctions here is important, but the chapter does a good job of describing a variety of differences in the state in which the branches are returned.

Chapter Two discusses eternal reward. Crowns (signifying kingdoms) are handed out based on the peoples fruits.

The Bible mentions specific crowns being given to believers as rewards. I explained this in a different disscussion, but have no way of knowing if you or other LDS read it. Some of the crowns mentioned are the crown of life, the crown of glory, the crown of rejoicing, the crown of righteousness, and an incorruptable crown. I noted that Revelation 4 tells of the twenty four elders casting their crowns before the throne of the Lord. It doesn't mention that crowns are kingdoms, and neither does this text. What do you base the belief on that crowns signify kingdoms?

]

DaveS · Aug 17, 2005

BTW I'm just wondering how 'because the early Christians believed it' makes what they believed any more true? Their beliefs were based on interpretations by people, not the word of God.

Early Christians Believed in 3 Heavens

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