America' Christian Foundation

What was America founded on?

  • Christianity (Puritan Calvanism)

  • Secular Humanism (atheism)

  • Liberal Political Philosophy

  • Conservative financial self interest

  • Any, none, all of the above (explain)


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gladiatrix

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phaedrus said:
gladiatrix said:
when religion was one of the root causes of the Revolution... This is an oversimplified summary and I invite any readers to follow the links provided for an excellent indepth discussion of this historical period.

There is NOTHING remotely democratic about Christianity....
Religion was one of the root causes of eglatarian political philosopy:

Care to support that with a concrete example of a religiously-based government (one where clerics run the show)? I challenge you to show me any government run by clerics and/or heavily influenced by them that
  • was extremely repressive (discrimination upto murder) of those who oppose it's dogmas (the Dark Ages)
  • hasn't desolved into a tyranny [Ex. Afganistan under the Taliban)
  • or exacerbated secterian violence (the "Irish troubles, for instance).
Do remember that you have YET to provide a single solitary example of ANY Christian principle written into the Constitution (the CURRENT document whose laws govern this land).

phaedrus said:
"Let us recollect the situation of France seven hundred years ago, when the territory was divided amongst a small number of families, who were the owners of the soil…Soon, however, the political power of the clergy was founded, and began to exert itself: the clergy opened its ranks to all classes, to the poor and the rich, the villain and the lord; equality penetrated into the Government through the Church..."(Taken from: DEMOCRACY IN AMERICA BY ALEXIS DE TOCQUEVILLE)

You can post quotes from now til the end of time. De Tocqueville gives not a single instance of any government that validates his ASSERTION that when the " the political power of the clergy was founded, and began to exert itself: the clergy opened its ranks to all classes, to the poor and the rich, the villain and the lord". Quotes without evidence to back up the assertions made within them are worthless and merely serve to illuminate one man's OPINION on the subject.

I find this particular ironic since de Tocqueville was a Frenchman whose monarchial government was sanctioned by the "divine right of kings" that was buttressed by an incredibly rich, power religious elite. Here, from my post # 89that you simply fail to answer any point I remind you of this:

In France before the upheaveal, the society of France, known as the ancien regime, was structured thus (from top to bottom):
  • The King whose power was considered absolute. He ruled under the Christain concept of the "divine right of kings" and was backed in this by the most powerful, wealthiest group, the First Estate.
  • The First Estate was composed of the clergy, which was divided into "higher" and "lower" clergy. "Although there was no formal demarcation between the two categories, the upper clergy were, effectively, clerical nobility, from the families of the Second Estate.demarcation between the two categories, the upper clergy were, effectively, clerical nobility, from the families of the Second Estate." Notice the religiously-sanctioned concentration of power here.
    From The First Estate
    Although some great churchmen came out of this system, much of the higher clergy continued to live the lives of aristocrats, enjoying the wealth derived from church lands and tithes and, in some cases, paying little or no attention to their churchly duties. The ostentatious wealth of the higher clergy was, no doubt, partly responsible for the widespread anticlericalism in France, dating back as far as the Middle Ages, and was certainly responsible for the element of class resentment within the anticlericalism of many peasants and wage-earners.
  • The Second Estate was the nobility.
  • The Third Estate was everyone else (98% of the population) NOT in the other two.

The bottom-line here is that the first two Estates, comprised of just 2% of the population, was in control of the vast majority of the nation's wealth and power.
Religion was used to justify this class stratification (divine right of kings, overlords) and the Revolution was a revulsion against this sort of religiously-sanctioned authoritarianism.

This is why I find your quoting de Tocqueville so VERY ironic (well....another irony meter bits the dust!)
phaedrus said:
Putting the French Revolution at the feet of Christian faith ignores that fact that the 'cult of reason', reflected the moral consensus at the time. Oversimplified? I pointed out the dangers of priestcraft and the establishing a Federal clearical institution.
So you pointed out the dangers of "priestcraft"? This is nothing but a slam against Catholics. How is the "pastorcraft" of Protestantism any better? An examination of history shows that Protestants have been as vicious when it comes to those who didn't hoe their "doctrinal row" as any Catholic persecutor. Sorry, but your dig of "priestcraft" is just that, a not-so-veiled insult to Catholics.

I find your quoting de Tocqueville as saying "the political power of the clergy was founded, and began to exert itself: the clergy opened its ranks to all classes, to the poor and the rich, the villain and the lord; equality penetrated into the Government through the Church" to be ironic a second time (darned irony meter goes back to shop again!!! This could get expensive...). You do know that he was a Catholic and by "clergy" he meant "priests". I wonder what he would have thought of your notion of "establishing a Federal clearical institution", since it is clear from your posts that you mean a Protestant "Federal clearical institution" (why else would you say " I pointed out the dangers of priestcraft", for instance?)

As for "establishing a Federal clearical institution"(~~shudder!!!~~~), well that's old-hat===>it was called the Inquistion.

phaedrus said:
On balance the First Amendment is Christian to the core.

If the First Amendment is "Christain to the core", I challenge you to show me from the Bible where there is any regard for freedom of either speech or religion. I showed why the opposite was true in my second post to you (totally ignored of course).
 
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gladiatrix

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phaedrus said:
Sociopath4Jesus said:
Ok fine, the decision is clearly an affirmation of the Christian content of our laws ...

For the third time, this nonsense is not part of the decision! It's dicta. Arrogant dicta, according to Justice Brennan, and aberrant dicta according to Justice Scalia. Meaningless. Tripe.
I understood you the first time, I just disagree. This 'arrogant dicta', as you put it, reflects the moral consensus.

Consensus of whom? The majority of Christians at that time? Well I hate to break it to you but the expressed purpose of the First Amendment and the Constitution in general is to see to it that the rights of the minority (presumably non-Christains) don't get trampled on by the majority/"consensus"(Christians?). The is something that just eats the palladins of the Religions Right alive because they wish it were not true and are desperate to rewrite history to show that "it just ain't so" (the Constitution isn't really a SECULAR document that doesn't mention god at all, let alone the Christian one...the founders "intended" otherwise. If so, why not simply make Christianity the state religion, if it was really so important to them, as religion history-revisionists claim?)

Now, back to the Holy Trinity case..... Note the following cases can be accessed at the site FINDLAW.

First of all, Holy Trinity, far from having any bearing on establishment clause jurisprudence, dealt with the importation of foreign laborers. It was summarized in a 1917 case called Scharrenberg v. Dollar Steamship Company as follows:

The purpose of this alien labor legislation was declared by this court almost thirty years ago, in Holy Trinity Church v. United States to be, to arrest the bringing of an ignorant, servile class of foreign laborers into the United States, under contract to work at a low rate of wages, and thus reduce other laborers engaged in like occupations to the level of the assisted immigrant.

Second, what one needs to remember is that the statement by Judge Brewer, so treasured by religious-right historical revisionists is not a case for them at all since what they are bruiting about is nothing but an POSTSCRIPT or DICTA, an UNOFFICIAL DECLARATION, it has NOTHING to do with the decision. They haven't hesitated to present this postscript/dicta/unofficial declaration as though it were the decision of the Court, which is at best a very willful misrepresentation of this case. (Repeated now for the umpteenth time, just to let phaedrus know he can't get away from just how IRRELEVANT to his argument Brewer's off-topic comment is)

Also consider this.... The opinion of a judge which does not embody the resolution or determination of the court and is made without argument, or full consideration of the point, and is not the professed deliberation of the judge himself. (BUSINESS LAW: PRINCIPLES AND CASES, 1978 FOURTH UCC EDITION, LUSK, HEWITT, DONNEL and BARNES, page 1333.)

In the Supreme Court's 1892 Holy Trinity vs. United Statesdecision Justice David Brewer wrote that "this is a Christian nation." Brewer's statement occurred in dicta,a legal term meaning writing that reflects a judge's personal opinion, not an official court pronouncement that sets legally binding precedent. In other words, there is no "force of law" behind someones off-topic opinion. NOTE: From the context of the quote, it is clear that Brewer only intended to acknowledge that Christianity has always been a dominant force in American life (no kidding!.... a real "duh!", IMO.)

In addition, in the landmark 1978 decision TVA (Tennessee Vally Authority) v. Hill, which was not an establishment clause case BTW, Chief Justice Burger, in reference to the continual use of Brewer's statement on statutory construction, wrote for the majority:

This Court, however, later explained Holy Trinity as applying only in 'rare and exceptional circumstances. . . . And there must be something to make plain the intent of Congress that the letter of the statute is not to prevail.' Crooks v. Harrelson, 282 U.S. 55, 60 (1930).

Chief Justice Brennan, in his dissent to Lynch v. Donnelly, says, "By insisting that such a distinctively sectarian message is merely an unobjectionable part of our 'religious heritage,' the Court takes a long step backwards to the days when Justice Brewer could arrogantly declare for the Court that 'this is a Christian nation.'"

When one examines just what the Supreme Court "thinks", it is NOT surprising to find that each Justice seems to have their own view of what the founding fathers "intended". But even Justice Scalia publicly admitted that Holy Trinity Church v. United States, 143 U.S. 457, 12 S. Ct. 511 (February 29, 1892), was an "aberration" (although his reference was somewhat oblique in this regard.) See his [Scalia's] dissent for Lee v. Weisman, 505 U.S. 577 (1992), at 640). I mean when one of the darlings of the Religious Right pans the Trinity case dictum as tripe, that really says a lot. Note that justices from BOTH sides of the political spectrum disagree with Brewer's comments.

After having said all this, I hope that it is abundantly clear just how irrelevant to the "cause" of those hawking "the US is a Christian" nation, Holy Trinity really is. It is yet another example of just how far the Religious Right will go in bending the truth to concoct a nice little propaganda piece.

phaedrus said:
It [the dicta] is often criticized for being ineffectual but that is due to the rise of pragmatic and inductive legal reasoning.

Too bad for you that people actually will use their REASON to see just how irrelevant and beside-the-point Brewer's comment was. Not to mention the FACT that this irrelevant comment is being dishonestly passed off as though it were some significant DECISION by the whole court.

phaedrus said:
The concept of what O.W.Holmes called, 'the mystic undertone' is often disparaged but it is still indispensable.

Care to support this claim with the facts? In other words,
  • Care to explain just what "mystic undertone" is?
  • Why is it relevant?
  • How is it relevant (any instances where a "mystic undertone", provided we know what that is and why it's relevant, applies to explaining/clarifying/illuminating a particular principle or subject)?

phaedrus said:
As for the quote from Scalia, it doesn't change the foundational role of Christianity in American governanace.
In this case, the very fact that such a stauch opponent of the separation of church and state as Scalia dismissing this comment as "aberrant" should tell you just what Brewer's comment is really worth toward validating the assertion that "the US is a Christian nation" rif from his buds on the Religious Right is===>ZERO! I can see why you are so eager to dismiss Scalia's comments.

Dozens of state constitutions, the Mayflower Compact, the Divine Providence of the DoL, the charters of the early colonies, even the substantive reasoning of the First amendment have one transendant element in common. Their reasoning was and is Protestant theology transformed into political theory.

First, guess what, the Mayflower Compact and the DoL aren't the govening documents of this land (get over it!). BTW, you have yet to connect "divine providence" to ANY principle in the Constitution, the governing LAW of this land.

Second, there is NOTHING remotely Christian about the First Amendment. In fact the Bible flatly contravenes the notion of religious freedoom and freedom of speech. From my earlier post #90 whose arguments you completely ignored....
How did Christianity contribute to the writing of the Constitution , especially in light of the fact that some Christains are alway trumpeting that this is a "Christian nation founded on Christian principles". But it that really true? Let's look at:
  • A = Constitutional principle
  • B = What the Bible says on the subject

(A)FREEDOM OF SPEECH. I don't find in the Bible any defense of freedom of speech.
(B) On the contrary: "he that doubteth is d@mned" (Romans 14:23); "there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers...whose mouths must be stopped.." (Titus, 1:10-11); and "These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: ......and he that soweth discord among brethren." (Proverbs 6:16-19). The last passage could be construed as being against democracy, since anyone who runs for office against an existing administration is sowing discord.

(A)RELIGIOUS TOLERANCE. This is embraced in both the original Constitution (Article VI, paragraph 3) and in the First Amendment. Yet in the Bible we have:
(B) "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" (Exodus 20:3) ; "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" (Exodus 22:18); "He that sacrifice unto any god save the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed" (Exodus 22:20); "He who is not with me is against me" (Matthew 12:30, Luke 11:23); "he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him" (Leviticus 24:16). [Such stoning was actually carried out, in 1 Kings 21:13] Anyone proselytizing for another religion is to be put to death, and if that person is a member of your family, you are to strike the first blow to kill him or her (Deuteronomy 13:5-10). "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." (Luke 19:27). The practice of "shunning" someone who disagrees with you on religious matters is advised in 2 Thessalonians 3:14.
Adapted/Quoted FROM Christian Bible Foundations of the U.S.A

BTW, just when are you going to support you assertion that there are Christian principles in the Constitution (the only one I can find is that slavery is condones, something the Bible does in spades).
 
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phaedrus

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I challenge you to show me any government run by clerics and/or heavily influenced by them that

I challenge you to show me any government run by antitheistic philosophies that has not resulted in repression and genocide. China, Russia, and Nazi Germany would be the most obvious modern examples.

Do remember that you have YET to provide a single solitary example of ANY Christian principle written into the Constitution (the CURRENT document whose laws govern this land).

No of course I didn't, I just cited every living document from the period and you ignored them. Clericalism was rejected in this country for purely relgious, reasons.

De Tocqueville gives not a single instance of any government that validates his ASSERTION

Yes he does, he is examining the United States half a century after it started. As to your take on the history of the French you have completely ignored that the Reign of Terror was a campaign against both the Church and State and resulted in anarchy at its most vial extreme.

So you pointed out the dangers of "priestcraft"? This is nothing but a slam against Catholics.

I find this absurd characterization completely baseless. Priestcraft was a commonly used term among the FF and if you don't know that, then you don't know your history.

If the First Amendment is "Christain to the core", I challenge you to show me from the Bible where there is any regard for freedom of either speech or religion. I showed why the opposite was true in my second post to you (totally ignored of course).

I did repeatedly and you ignored it. I have religious convictions against bringing the Biblical support for these principles but I will quote De Tocqueville one last time since you obviously didn't bother to read the earlier quotes:

In the United States the sovereign authority is religious … there is no country in the whole world in which the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the soul of its utility, and of its conformity to human nature, than that its influence is most powerfully…

Religion in America takes no direct part in the government of society, but it must nevertheless be regarded as the foremost of the political institutions of that country… Indeed, it is in this same point of view that the inhabitants of the United States themselves look upon religious belief. I do not know whether all the Americans have a sincere faith in their religion, for who can search the human heart? …but I am certain that they hold it to be indispensable to the maintenance of republican institutions…

Whilst I was in America, a witness, who happened to be called at the assizes of the county of Chester (State of New York), declared that he did not believe the existence of God, or in the immortality of the soul. The judge refused to admit his evidence, on the ground that the witness had destroyed beforehand all the confidence of the Court in what he was about to say. The newspapers related the fact without any further comment.( The New York "Spectator" of August 23, 1831)

There are persons in France who look upon republican institutions as a temporary means of power…When these men attack religious opinions, they obey the dictates of their passions to the prejudice of their interests. Despotism may govern without faith, but liberty cannot…

In France I had almost always seen the spirit of religion and the spirit of freedom pursuing courses diametrically opposed to each other; but in America I found that they were intimately united…they mainly attributed the peaceful dominion of religion in their country to the separation of Church and State. I do not hesitate to affirm that during my stay in America I did not meet with a single individual, of the clergy or of the laity, who was not of the same opinion upon this point…

They are carried away by an imperceptible current which they have not the courage to stem, but which they follow with regret, since it bears them from a faith they love, to a skepticism that plunges them into despair.

(Taken from: DEMOCRACY IN AMERICA BY ALEXIS DE TOCQUEVILLE)
 
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phaedrus

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gladiatrix said:
Consensus of whom? The majority of Christians at that time? Well I hate to break it to you but the expressed purpose of the First Amendment and the Constitution in general is to see to it that the rights of the minority (presumably non-Christains) don't get trampled on by the majority/"consensus"(Christians?). The is something that just eats the palladins of the Religions Right alive because they wish it were not true and are desperate to rewrite history to show that "it just ain't so" (the Constitution isn't really a SECULAR document that doesn't mention god at all, let alone the Christian one...the founders "intended" otherwise. If so, why not simply make Christianity the state religion, if it was really so important to them, as religion history-revisionists claim?)

More of the same I see, I don't mind the satire but I am not trying to revise anything. The founders intended to secure the freedom of religion for the religious, this is an historical fact and not subject to these absurd rationalizations.

gladiatrix said:
Now, back to the Holy Trinity case..... Note the following cases can be accessed at the site FINDLAW.

First of all, Holy Trinity, far from having any bearing on establishment clause jurisprudence, dealt with the importation of foreign laborers. It was summarized in a 1917 case called Scharrenberg v. Dollar Steamship Company as follows:

I understand the point of law being discussed and the case law involved. I think its an interesting rant but other then that the respect for the religious tradition embedded in American governance has been lost on you.

gladiatrix said:
Second, what one needs to remember is that the statement by Judge Brewer, so treasured by religious-right historical revisionists is not a case for them at all since what they are bruiting about is nothing but an POSTSCRIPT or DICTA, an UNOFFICIAL DECLARATION, it has NOTHING to do with the decision. They haven't hesitated to present this postscript/dicta/unofficial declaration as though it were the decision of the Court, which is at best a very willful misrepresentation of this case. (Repeated now for the umpteenth time, just to let phaedrus know he can't get away from just how IRRELEVANT to his argument Brewer's off-topic comment is)

If it were an isolated text I might tend to agree but it does not stand alone. I've cited far more then that and it sends you into convulsions. You want to disagree with me or dissent the reasoning of the court on this matter, fine. But don't tell me its irrelevant, when this is decided by the Supreme Court it is law.

gladiatrix said:
Also consider this.... The opinion of a judge which does not embody the resolution or determination of the court and is made without argument, or full consideration of the point, and is not the professed deliberation of the judge himself. (BUSINESS LAW: PRINCIPLES AND CASES, 1978 FOURTH UCC EDITION, LUSK, HEWITT, DONNEL and BARNES, page 1333.)

Ok, I have considered this statement and I'll give it some thought. :scratch: I agree in principle but I fail to see your point.

gladiatrix said:
In the Supreme Court's 1892 Holy Trinity vs. United Statesdecision Justice David Brewer wrote that "this is a Christian nation." Brewer's statement occurred in dicta,a legal term meaning writing that reflects a judge's personal opinion, not an official court pronouncement that sets legally binding precedent. In other words, there is no "force of law" behind someones off-topic opinion. NOTE: From the context of the quote, it is clear that Brewer only intended to acknowledge that Christianity has always been a dominant force in American life (no kidding!.... a real "duh!", IMO.)

Christianity has been a dominant force without the need for legislative authority. Does this tell you anything? I'll skip the rest even though I did enjoy it. I'm about ready to sum up this point but I'm trying to get through the rest of the post. :yum:


gladiatrix said:
After having said all this, I hope that it is abundantly clear just how irrelevant to the "cause" of those hawking "the US is a Christian" nation, Holy Trinity really is. It is yet another example of just how far the Religious Right will go in bending the truth to concoct a nice little propaganda piece.

I fail to see how the Religious Right gains anything from this decision. We are impowered by the fact that the Church is barred from the corrupting influence of political power.

gladiatrix said:
Too bad for you that people actually will use their REASON to see just how irrelevant and beside-the-point Brewer's comment was. Not to mention the FACT that this irrelevant comment is being dishonestly passed off as though it were some significant DECISION by the whole court.

Yea its a shame that REASON is being used to make a point of something that should be obvious. Is the importance of moral consensus so hard to understand?

gladiatrix said:
Care to support this claim with the facts? In other words,
  • Care to explain just what "mystic undertone" is?
  • Why is it relevant?
  • How is it relevant (any instances where a "mystic undertone", provided we know what that is and why it's relevant, applies to explaining/clarifying/illuminating a particular principle or subject)?


  • Yea I sure would, its called moral consensus and I have elaborated on this at length.


    gladiatrix said:
    In this case, the very fact that such a stauch opponent of the separation of church and state as Scalia dismissing this comment as "aberrant" should tell you just what Brewer's comment is really worth toward validating the assertion that "the US is a Christian nation" rif from his buds on the Religious Right is===>ZERO! I can see why you are so eager to dismiss Scalia's comments.

    Like I have been trying to tell you this has nothing to do with the religious right. This is about the importance of religion and morality in American governance, now as to Sacalia's comments, I respectfully dissent. :)

    gladiatrix said:
    First, guess what, the Mayflower Compact and the DoL aren't the govening documents of this land (get over it!). BTW, you have yet to connect "divine providence" to ANY principle in the Constitution, the governing LAW of this land.

    Oh brother, divine providence was the authority they based the United States on and at the dawn of the 21st century we are faced with people who would forget our very foundations. In the light of the previous rant Ben Franklins words seem almost prophetic:

    "I firmly believe...that without concurring aid we shall succede no better then the tower of Bable...worse, mankind may here after from this unfortunate instance of dispair of establishing governments by human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest." (Dr. Benjamin Franklin to the Constitutional Convention, 1787)
 
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gladiatrix

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PART 1.....

phaedrus said:
gladiatrix said:
I challenge you to show me any government run by clerics and/or heavily influenced by them that
I challenge you to show me any government run by antitheistic philosophies that has not resulted in repression and genocide. China, Russia, and Nazi Germany would be the most obvious modern examples.
Points to keep in mind:
1. This would be a good point, but unfortunately for you, we are not talking about races, nationalites, or political systems.

2. Also bear in mind that at no time have I ever made any claims that a secular society would necessarily be any better or has been any better than a religiously-based one.

3. We are talking about a religion, Christianity.
  • A religion that claims to be different from all other religions.
  • A religion that claims to possess the actual words of the One True God™.
  • A religion that claims to be guided by the spirit of God™d.
  • Furthermore, it is you are also claiming that there is something wonderful and special about the power of Christian religion that makes it a safeguard for the kinds of personal freedoms we now enjoy.
  • Yet you can not point to a single country with a religious regime of ANY stripe and say "yes...see how free these people are, because they follow X (Christian?) religious principles".
Worse yet, upon examining the history of this Christianity, we can see that these claims are false.

4. Instead you resort to playing the "moral equivalency" game in the form of:

Well just look! your "antitheistic" (whatever that means) regimes (China, Russia, etc.) do it, too aka genocide, etc. or see, 'you do it (genocide, atrocity-of-choice) too!"

First, this is is an example of what is known as a tu quoque ("you too") fallacy. When the inquities of Christians are enumerated, you attempt to counter with an equal catalog of "atheistic" (I assume that is what you mean when you say "antitheistic") crimes. What someone else does or is alleged to have done is NOT justification for Christians doing the same. This is especially true in light of the supposed occupation of the highest moral ground by Christianity.

Second
, In short, it's very dangerous to cast stones in the "moral equivalency game" when you live in the glass house of "moral superiority." Or to state it another way, it very dangerous for your argument because all you have really succeeded in doing is to show that theists are really NOT "better" than non-theists (antitheists = atheists, secularists?) at promoting the "common good".

6. And just what is an "antitheistic philosophy"? I am assuming that you regard these regimes as "atheistic". Guess what? An atheist is simply someone who lacks belief in any god. There is no "philosophy" that goes with that. Furthermore, the atrocities committed by under the Communists regimes (I again assume that is what you mean) of China and the USSR did NOT kill anyone to promote atheism. Religion was regarded as another competitor for power and its any dissenting adherents were killed for political reason, not religious ones.

Of course, you could be one of those theists who assumes
  • that all non-theists are corrupt, immoral, pleasure-seeking hedonists because they don't live in some kind of God-fear
  • any government composed of non-theists will automatically be evil because such persons don't think they will ever be held accountable for their actions (by an angry God)
and that is what you mean by "anti-theistic", but there is no way to tell from what you wrote.

BTW, Hitler was a Christian, but I'll give evidence for that later......

phaedrus said:
gladiatrix said:
Do remember that you have YET to provide a single solitary example of ANY Christian principle written into the Constitution (the CURRENT document whose laws govern this land).
No of course I didn't, I just cited every living document from the period and you ignored them. Clericalism was rejected in this country for purely relgious, reasons.
No, I didn't "ignore" them (the Mayflower Compact, DoL). You just haven't shown how any of them are relevant to your contention of "America's Christian Foundations". Let's look at the
Mayflower Compact
for instance:
he Name of God, Amen. We whose names are underwritten, the loyal subjects of our dread sovereign Lord, King James, by the grace of God, of Great Britain, France and Ireland King, Defender of the Faith, etc.

Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually in the presence of God, and one of another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil body politic, for our better ordering and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid; and by virtue hereof to enact, constitute and frame such just and equal laws, ordinances, acts, constitutions and offices, from time to time as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the general good of the Colony: unto which we promise all due submission and obedience. In witness whereof we have hereunder subscribed our names at Cape Cod the 11 of November, in the year of the reign of our sovereign Lord, King James of England, France and Ireland the eighteenth, and of Scotland the fifty-fourth Ano. Dom. 1620.

Well, I would certainly say that they advanced the Christian faith when they used it as excuse to kill the Native Americans who were just "naked, Godless, heathens" and establish their colony for the honor of "our King and Country" on land that wasn't theirs to start with. However, I don't see that the "advancing the Christian faith" is in any part of the Constitution. In fact, the First Amendment expressly forbids the advancement of ANY religious faith and doesn't mention any god at all...

Let's take this clause:
combine ourselves together into a civil body politic, for our better ordering and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid; and by virtue hereof to enact, constitute and frame such just and equal laws, ordinances, acts, constitutions and offices, from time to time as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the general good of the Colony: unto which we promise all due submission and obedience.

Christianity is not necessary for coming "together into a civil body politic, for our better ordering and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid; and by virtue hereof to enact, constitute and frame such just and equal laws, ordinances, acts, constitutions and offices, from time to time as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the general good ". This sounds like common sense and is characteristic of most stable human groups from the beginning of time. In other words, there are just some things that people can't do and some things they need to do, IF they are going to maintain a stable group. People have done the above things before without Christianity.

Let's take the Declaration of Independence
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume, among the Powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by [/b]their Creator [/b]with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. [...]

On point of interest here is that there were over 40 alterations in the original draft. It may surprise some that the phrase "pursuit of Happiness" was originally the "pursuit of property" (not a big surprise when many of the framers, such as Jefferson, were wealthy land-owners).

Also many of these men weren't Christians, but Deists which is why you get generic references to "god" as
  • "Nature's God"==>doesn't say the Christian God, but we are just supposed to assume it..right? "Nature's God" sound like something out of a Wiccan text as opposed to a Christian one, IMO.
  • "the Creator" ==>again, this looks more like a Deist reference, not a Christian-specific one, but we are just supposed to ASSUME that it's the Christian God???.
  • Now we get the phrase "Laws of Nature". What is "Christian" about this? As a matter of fact, that sounds very naturalist and quite materialist. But again, I guess we are just supposed to assume that the "laws of Nature" = natural law and divine providence. Unless one just blindly assumes the equation ("laws of Nature" = "divine providence aka the Christian version"), then this phrase is not specifically Christian either.

Once again, where is any of this in the Constitution? If the framers really wanted to have an America with "Christian foundations", why on earth is it not SPECIFICALLY in the governing document of this land? It is NOT.

Also, once again, the DoL is NOT the governing document of this land, even assuming that all of the above references ("laws of nature", "Nature's God", "the Creator") were references to the Christian God. The fact remains that however much the founders may have venerated God (Christian or Deist), they did made the Constitution a SECULAR document for a SECULAR government (no god mentioned, no religious tests for office, no special preference for ANY religion).

No one denies that most of the founders were Christians or Deists, but then you have YET to make the connection between Christianity and any principle in the Constitution...

phaedrus said:
As to your take on the history of the French you have completely ignored that the Reign of Terror was a campaign against both the Church and State and resulted in anarchy at its most vial extreme
??? I never ignored any such thing and said so, but then you just ignored that, too. From my post:
The bottom-line here is that the first two Estates, comprised of just 2% of the population, was in control of the vast majority of the nation's wealth and power. [/b] Religion was used to justify this class stratification (divine right of kings, overlords) and the Revolution was a revulsion against this sort of religiously-sanctioned authoritarianism. Therefore, it is NO surprise that the revolutionists sought to replace what was in their view an oppressive, religiously-sanctioned state, with a secular one. Unfortunately, the revolutionists eventually became as corrupted by power as those they rebelled against and their effort failed (and rightly so). Also, please do not construe this post as a defense of the ruthless authoritarian excesses of the French Revolutionists, because that would not be the truth.
 
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gladiatrix

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PART 2.....de Tocqueville as evidence????

phaedrus said:
gladiatrix said:
If the First Amendment is "Christain to the core", I challenge you to show me from the Bible where there is any regard for freedom of either speech or religion. I showed why the opposite was true in my second post to you
I did repeatedly and you ignored it. I have religious convictions against bringing the Biblical support for these principles but I will quote De Tocqueville one last time since you obviously didn't bother to read the earlier quotes:

In the United States the sovereign authority is religious … there is no country in the whole world in which the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the soul of its utility, and of its conformity to human nature, than that its influence is most powerfully…

Religion in America takes no direct part in the government of society, but it must nevertheless be regarded as the foremost of the political institutions of that country…
Well, it seems to me that de Tocqueville is stating quite plainly that religion is not part of the government and actually goes on to claim that it is a political institution! I do agree with him in the sense that I have always thought that religions have been and are political institutions who try to sell people on the notion that they derive their right to govern from some invisible supernatural entity(-ies?) who very conveniently only communicates with the religious leaders who claim (without one iota of evidence) to speak for said supernatural entity (-ies?).

However, he gives not a single example to support his claim that religion [...]be regarded as the foremost of political institutions of that country". It's simply his opinion. Opinions are not evidence of anything except what that particular person thinks (and what that person thinks may simply be false without evidence to say otherwise).

MORE de Tocqueville
Indeed, it is in this same point of view that the inhabitants of the United States themselves look upon religious belief. I do not know whether all the Americans have a sincere faith in their religion, for who can search the human heart? …but I am certain that they hold it to be indispensable to the maintenance of republican institutions…
Brother! what a vague, wish-washy statement! He believes Americans " have a sincere faith in their religion, for who can search the human heart? …but I am certain that they hold it to be indispensable to the maintenance of republican institutions?" He believes what he isn't sure to be true, but is certain of anyway???!!! ===>You do know that this is nothing more than de Tocquevilles very unsupported opinion of what he thinks MIGHT be true? It doesn't mean jack in the way of evidence for "America's Christian Foundations".

MORE de Tocqueville
Whilst I was in America, a witness, who happened to be called at the assizes of the county of Chester (State of New York), declared that he did not believe the existence of God, or in the immortality of the soul. The judge refused to admit his evidence, on the ground that the witness had destroyed beforehand all the confidence of the Court in what he was about to say. The newspapers related the fact without any further comment.( The New York "Spectator" of August 23, 1831)
And a story of a judge who openly discriminates against an atheist is supposed to prove what? Oh, but I keep forgetting that all atheists are liars because they don't live in God-fear...right?? If this story of rampant discrimination is supposed to illustrate "America's Christian Foundations" then it is my fervent hope that the Religious Right never succeeds in taking over.

More de Tocqueville
There are persons in France who look upon republican institutions as a temporary means of power…When these men attack religious opinions, they obey the dictates of their passions to the prejudice of their interests. Despotism may govern without faith, but liberty cannot…
Oh really, like the Chester County Judge who discriminated against an atheist is such an example of "liberty" by the "faithful" as opposed to those bad ole atheists and their "faithless Despotism"? Riiighhhttt! (SSHEEESH!)

MORE de Tocqueville
In France I had almost always seen the spirit of religion and the spirit of freedom pursuing courses diametrically opposed to each other; but in America I found that they were intimately united…they mainly attributed the peaceful dominion of religion in their country to the separation of Church and State. I do not hesitate to affirm that during my stay in America I did not meet with a single individual, of the clergy or of the laity, who was not of the same opinion upon this point…

It would seem to me that the above is NOT evidence of any kind of for "American's Christian Foundations" because de Tocqueville implies that peace and unity are the result of the Separation between Church and State. Remember that in France there was no such thing as any kind of separation between Church and State (remember the Estate system came back after Napoleon, who also derived his power from the Christian "divine right of kings"). That is why their aims were diametrically opposed...each was struggling with the other for power.

Sorry, but no cigar here, either. If anything, it would seem that de Tocqueville has yet to give any kind of evidence to support you claime of "America's Christian Foundations".
 
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gladiatrix

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phaedrus said:
gladiatrix said:
Consensus of whom? The majority of Christians at that time? Well I hate to break it to you but the expressed purpose of the First Amendment and the Constitution in general is to see to it that the rights of the minority (presumably non-Christains) don't get trampled on by the majority/"consensus"(Christians?). /snip/
More of the same I see, I don't mind the satire but I am not trying to revise anything. The founders intended to secure the freedom of religion for the religious, this is an historical fact and not subject to these absurd rationalizations.
Freedom of religion for the religious? So freedom is just for the religious??? I wouldn't surprise me if you thought that since you uncritically posted this by de Tocqueville:
Whilst I was in America, a witness, who happened to be called at the assizes of the county of Chester (State of New York), declared that he did not believe the existence of God, or in the immortality of the soul. The judge refused to admit his evidence, on the ground that the witness had destroyed beforehand all the confidence of the Court in what he was about to say. The newspapers related the fact without any further comment.( The New York "Spectator" of August 23, 1831)
It would seem that from this circumstantial evidence that you don't think that atheists deserve freedom from the prejudices of the religious. Perhaps you agree with Pat Boone, that atheists should just "shut up and get over it"

Or maybe you agree with George Bush Sr when he proclaimed (with no evidence) that atheists weren't citizens or patriots(guess he would have loved the story about de Tocqueville's Chester County Judge and said "way to go"!!!)

phaedrus said:
gladiatrix said:
Now, back to the Holy Trinity case..... Note the following cases can be accessed at the site FINDLAW. First of all, Holy Trinity, far from having any bearing on establishment clause jurisprudence, dealt with the importation of foreign laborers. It was summarized in a 1917 case called Scharrenberg v. Dollar Steamship Company as follows:
I understand the point of law being discussed and the case law involved. I think its an interesting rant but other then that the respect for the religious tradition embedded in American governance has been lost on you.
Since most Americans are claim to be Christians, it doesn't surprise me that many Americans would venerate their faith, but you have yet to show any connection between the laws that govern this land and the Christian "tradition". BTW whose tradition, considering there are thousands of competing version of Christianity...which "tradition" do you claim is "embedded in American government (a case you haven't come close to making, regardless of whose "tradition" you claim is there).

phaedrus said:
gladiatrix said:
Second, what one needs to remember is that the statement by Judge Brewer, so treasured by religious-right historical revisionists is not a case for them at all since what they are bruiting about is nothing but an POSTSCRIPT or DICTA, an UNOFFICIAL DECLARATION, it has NOTHING to do with the decision. They haven't hesitated to present this postscript/dicta/unofficial declaration as though it were the decision of the Court, which is at best a very willful misrepresentation of this case. (Repeated now for the umpteenth time, just to let phaedrus know he can't get away from just how IRRELEVANT to his argument Brewer's off-topic comment is)
If it were an isolated text I might tend to agree but it does not stand alone. I've cited far more then that and it sends you into convulsions. You want to disagree with me or dissent the reasoning of the court on this matter, fine. But don't tell me its irrelevant, when this is decided by the Supreme Court it is law.
Far more??? and that would be what? The OPINION of de Tocqueville? The Mayflower Compact (no part of which is included in the Constition)? The DoL (not a governing document)?

I don't care is you have a zillion comments that reflect someone's private OPINION. That doesn't mean that their OPINION is "embedded in American government". The only thing that is coming accross to me from you is that you seem to believe that the religious (meaning Christians, any particular brand?) are the only ones who are protected by the Constitution because of an ALLEGED tradition despite the fact that this "tradition" (which sect/denomination?) somehow failed to make it's way into the governing document of the land (the Constitution).

phaedrus said:
gladiatrix said:
In the Supreme Court's 1892 Holy Trinity vs. United Statesdecision Justice David Brewer wrote that "this is a Christian nation." Brewer's statement occurred in dicta,a legal term meaning writing that reflects a judge's personal opinion, not an official court pronouncement that sets legally binding precedent. In other words, there is no "force of law" behind someones off-topic opinion. NOTE: From the context of the quote, it is clear that Brewer only intended to acknowledge that Christianity has always been a dominant force in American life (no kidding!.... a real "duh!", IMO.)
Christianity has been a dominant force without the need for legislative authority. Does this tell you anything?
Since ~88% of Americans claim to be Christians I would expect Christianity to be a "dominant force" as the reigning religious majority. So what? Many Christians seem to think that gives your "majority" the right to trample on the "minority" (a la Pat Boone?).

phaedrus said:
gladiatrix said:
Too bad for you that people actually will use their REASON to see just how irrelevant and beside-the-point Brewer's comment was. Not to mention the FACT that this irrelevant comment is being dishonestly passed off as though it were some significant DECISION by the whole court.
Yea its a shame that REASON is being used to make a point of something that should be obvious. Is the importance of moral consensus so hard to understand?
I understand only too well that you alleged moral consensus is nothing more than a very transparent excuse to try and foist a brand of Christianity on everyone else. I don't think your lot wants the "Wall of Separation" down so much as you want a one-way door in it marked:

"For True Christians™ (as defined by the a brand of Christian fundamentalism) ONLY"

phaedrus said:
gladiatrix said:
Care to support this claim with the facts? In other words,
  • Care to explain just what "mystic undertone" is?
  • Why is it relevant?
  • How is it relevant (any instances where a "mystic undertone", provided we know what that is and why it's relevant, applies to explaining/clarifying/illuminating a particular principle or subject)?

Yea I sure would, its called moral consensus and I have elaborated on this at length.
I along with ~14.4% of the population of this country don't buy your "moral consensus"(mystic overtone). As I see, it you have absolutely no evidence that a god (of the mystic overtone) exists, let alone any evidence that IF there were "a" god(s?) it must be the Christian one. I think it is very arrogant to expect everyone else to concur and knuck under to your "mystic overtone" simply because a majority of Americans claim to be Christian (which Christians?? Thousands of versions out there...so just which 'mystic overtone" should we all capitulate to and accomodate ad infinitem?). This is nothing but a fallacious appeal to the majority (if millions concur it must so!...we're the majority so everyone else shut up ...Remember the Chester County Judge). A little better disquised, but still fallacious reasoning nonetheless.

phaedrus said:
gladiatrix said:
First, guess what, the Mayflower Compact and the DoL aren't the govening documents of this land (get over it!). BTW, you have yet to connect "divine providence" to ANY principle in the Constitution, the governing LAW of this land.
Oh brother, divine providence was the authority they based the United States on and at the dawn of the 21st century we are faced with people who would forget our very foundations.

You can claim that "divine providence" (whose divine authority? the Christian god? If so which version?) was the authority to doomsday, but the fact remains that this "divine providence" (a phrase you don't define) is completely absent from the Constitution, which Franklin had a hand in writing. Funny, I don't see any of his/your 'mystic overtone'/moral consensus in an part of that document. Perhaps you can point to some part of the Constitution that is contains a "mystic overtone". So far you have YET to do so.....

phaedrus said:
In the light of the previous rant Ben Franklins words seem almost prophetic:

"I firmly believe...that without concurring aid we shall succede no better then the tower of Bable...worse, mankind may here after from this unfortunate instance of dispair of establishing governments by human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest." (Dr. Benjamin Franklin to the Constitutional Convention, 1787)

Since we are onto Franklin, I notice you didn't post these from Franklin which show how weary he was of any "mystic overtone" getting into government via the Constitution....

"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity." --Benjamin Franklin, Works, Vol. VII, p. 75

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish Church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice themselves both here (England) and in New England." -- Benjamin Franklin

"When a religion is good, I conceive that it will support itself; and when it cannot support itself, and God does not take care to support, so that its Professors are obliged to call for the help of the Civil Power, it is a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." - Benjamin Franklin, Oct. 9, 1780.

"But think how great a proportion of mankind consists of weak and ignorant men and women, and of inexperienced and inconsiderate youth of both sexes, who have need of the motives of religion to restrain them from vice, to support their virtue, and to retain them in the practice of it until it becomes habitual..." -- Benjamin Franklin, Dec 13, 1757.

"As to Jesus of Nazareth...I think the system of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the World ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity." -- Benjamin Franklin

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." -- Benjamin Franklin

"The nearest I can make it out, 'Love your Enemies' means, 'Hate your Friends'." -- Benjamin Franklin

"I think vital religion has always suffered when orthodoxy is more regarded than virtue. The scriptures assure me that at the last day we shall not be examined on what we thought but what we did." -- Benjamin Franklin, letter to his father, 1738

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it." -- Benjamin Franklin from "Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion", Nov. 20, 1728

I can see why Franklin, who may have thought it was a good idea to pray at the Constitutional Convention (what your quote refers to), BUT saw to it that the Constitution was not going to be corrupted by the machinations of religious fanatics with an agenda and helped make the US government a SECULAR institution.
 
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phaedrus

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Freedom of religion for the religious? So freedom is just for the religious??? I wouldn't surprise me if you thought that since you uncritically posted this by de Tocqueville

What are you talking about? The freedom of religion is a religious right, plain and simple. De Tocqueville makes an interesting point about the authority of relgion being attributed to the fact that one religious view is given preferance over the other.

you have yet to show any connection between the laws that govern this land and the Christian "tradition".

Supreme Court decisions, case law, the Dol, the First Amendment, The Virginia Statute of Religions Freedom, the N.W. Ordinance, the first legal treatise on American judicial legal governance and a string of quotes from the FF that speak expessly with regards to their 'intent' that the genuine article of faith be preserved while priestcraft be barred. You are begging the question here.

I defined the Christian princilple that was and is ubiqutious to American governance as divine providence. Unlike you I define my central terms rather then trying to tear down the opposing viewpoint, now that you pedantic rants about the dangers of religion I'll post another definition and you can go back into you mocking of religion.

"Religion.- Mans relation to Divinity! to reverence, worship, obedience, and submission to mandates and precepts of supernatural or superior beings. In its broadest sense includes all forms of belief in the existence of superior beings exercising power over human beings by volition, imposing rules of conduct, with future rewards and punishments. Bond uniting man to God, and a virtue whose purpose is to render God worship due him as source of all being and principle of all government of things. Nikulnikoff v. Archbishop, etc., of Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church, 142 Misc. 894, 255 N.Y.S. 653, 663.
As used in constitutional provisions of First Amend*ment forbidding the "establishment of religion," the term means a particular system of faith and worship recognized and practised by a particular church, sect, or denomination. Reynolds v. U. S., 98 U.S. 145, 149, 25 L.Ed. 244; Wolman v. Walter, 433 U.S. 229, 97 S.Ct. 2593, 53 L.Ed.2d 714; Roemer, et al. v. Board of Public Works of Md., 426 U.S. 736, 96 S.Ct. 2337, 49 L.Ed.2d 1.

Religion, offenses against. In old English law, they were enumerated by Blackstone as including: (1) Apostasy; (2) heresy; (3) reviling the ordinances of the church; (4) blasphemy; (5) profane swearing; (6) conjuration or witchcraft; (7) religious imposture; (8) sodomy; (9) profanation of the Lord's day; (10) drunkenness; (11) lewdness. 4 Bl.Comm. 43.

Religious freedom. Within Constitution (First Amend*ment) embraces not only the right to worship God ac*cording to the dictates of one's conscience, but also the right to do, or forbear to do, any act, for conscience sake, the doing or forbearing of which is not inimical to the peace, good order, and morals of society. Barnette v. West Virginia State Board of Education, D.C.W.Va., 47 F.Supp. 251, 253, 254. (Blacks Law Dictionary)"

Now as far as Pat Boone and G. Bush, again, I have no idea what your point is in bringing them up. I don't appeciate this kind of a generalization and I intend to ignore this sort of thing from now on, it irrelevant to the point of being ridiculas.

"For True Christians™ (as defined by the a brand of Christian fundamentalism) ONLY"

I defined it as the Founding Fathers defined it, as divine providence. They attested to a 'firm reliance' on it and De Tocquville's comments concerning it that you dismissed with childish disdain affirmed quite the opposite. Now as to the 'mystic tone', aka 'spirit of the law' the concept of tansendence would seem to be incomprehesible to you. The principle and particulars were clearly laid out and I am frankly bored with the circular arguments to the contrary. Finally as far as your bizzare rationalization of Franklin's prayer; following this the entire Congress left in mass to go to local churches to listen to the sermons of local clerics is seek divine council. What resulted was called a miracle by both Madison and Washington.

Remember that in France there was no such thing as any kind of separation between Church and State (remember the Estate system came back after Napoleon, who also derived his power from the Christian "divine right of kings"). That is why their aims were diametrically opposed...each was struggling with the other for power.

“Come Holy Liberty, inhabit this temple,
become the goddess of the French people.”

(From a hymn sung at Notre Dame when it was converted to a Temple of Reason)

France formed a purely secular state and clerics where dragged out of churches and killed in the streets. Tens of thousands were killed and nothing was gained. Religion was completely rejected, Napoleon did not derive his power from anything remotely religious, this is absurd. To dismiss the role of religion in the foundation of American governance is equally impossible to square with the facts of history.

"It is perhaps striking that members of the Church of England tended to side with the Tory side. Although 2/3 of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were Anglican, dissenters--Baptists, Methodists, and Presbyterians--tended to side with the rebellion in mass. As one English commentator of the day noted, support for the Rebellion came from "Congregationalists, Presbyterians, and smugglers." These dissenting groups believed that the effort to extend the establishment of the Church of England and the steps being taken to assert royal authority over the political realm to be part and parcel of the same cloth. Indeed, the importance of this ecclesiastical issue as a precipitating factor in the American Revolution has been largely overlooked."

Religion and Revolution
 
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crazyfingers

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phaedrus said:
What are you talking about? The freedom of religion is a religious right, plain and simple.
Freedom of religion is a constitutional right. At least when it comes to the three Abrahamic religions, freedom of religion does not exist.

Commandment 1: You will have no other gods before me.

That's not freedom of religion.
 
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phaedrus

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crazyfingers said:
Freedom of religion is a constitutional right. At least when it comes to the three Abrahamic religions, freedom of religion does not exist.

Commandment 1: You will have no other gods before me.

That's not freedom of religion.

The worship of God or gods is a matter of conscience, the Constitution defers anything it is not specifically impowered to do to the states and to the people. The theocracy of Israel was a conditional, provisional covenant. There are blessings for obediance and curses for disobedience, there was allways a choice. Now as far as the Church there was a democracy that asserted itself in the 16th century, it was called the Protestant Reformation. What followed was the two civil wars (30 years war and English Civil war), followed by the the Scientific Revolution and the Enlightenment.

Where do you think the concepts of, inalienable rights, and 'self evident' came from?
 
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phaedrus said:
The worship of God or gods is a matter of conscience, the Constitution defers anything it is not specifically impowered to do to the states and to the people.
You forget the 14th amendment that binds the 1st amendment to the states.

The theocracy of Israel was a conditional, provisional covenant. There are blessings for obediance and curses for disobedience, there was allways a choice. Now as far as the Church there was a democracy that asserted itself in the 16th century, it was called the Protestant Reformation. What followed was the two civil wars (30 years war and English Civil war), followed by the the Scientific Revolution and the Enlightenment.
Adds nothing...

Where do you think the concepts of, inalienable rights, and 'self evident' came from?

Human philosophy and ethics. Religions are not into rights. They are into obedience.
 
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phaedrus

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Consider the term you are using, 'religion'. I don't want to get too much into semantics but the term gererally means to 'bind back together'. Its actually an identification with the sacred or the divine as our source. The profound influence of religion on morals and culture should not be underestimated. Especially in Western Civilization.

You forget the 14th amendment that binds the 1st amendment to the states.

The 14th amendment was ratified after the Civil War was used in 1954 to stem the tide of racial prejudice. The original intent of it does not seem to have anything to do with the 1st amendment directly but it is often used in concert with other amendments to adapt itself to new issues. This kind of inductive legal philosophy is fairly modern and the original intent of the 1st amendment is unchanged, even though the substantive reasoning has gotten more complicated.

The 14th amendment was invoked when the civil rights movement (organized primarily through churches btw) was being badly mistreated by backward states. The Supreme Court stepped in and said this was unconstitutional and reaffirmed the 'due process' provision. How this relates to the establishment clause is a mystery to me. I never really liked the way it has been used to create some kind of a transendant authority over the other amendments. I do agree though that the privacy principle is applicable, with regards to matters of conscience, if thats what you are getting at.

Religions are not into rights. They are into obedience.

The same could be said of governments, whats your point?
 
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cherokeehippie said:
I'm so tired of all this talk among christians about american's founding fathers being christians bla bla bla. To me, it makes my skin crawl--it's propaganda--and goes along with those who equate being American with being White and mixing religion with patriotism. IF anyone think they were christians, you should see some of the things they said about Native Americans--especially when the pilgrims came across Native american villages that were wiped out with smallpox. They actually thank God that He allowed them to be wiped out! Sounds more like something hitler would say instead of someone who truly loved and knows the Lord.

I agree, it was far from any form of Christianity I want to lay claim to. Talk about an agenda when it fits say look at the founding fathers how they said Divine Providence, and God. I say let's look at what they practiced, instead of what they said.
 
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And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a Virgin Mary, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.... But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away [with] all this artificial scaffolding. (Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, 11 April 1823, as quoted by E. S. Gaustad, "Religion," in Merrill D. Peterson, ed., Thomas Jefferson: A Reference Biography, New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1986, p. 287.)

... Jefferson expressed himself strongly on that larger apocalypse, the Book of Revelation, in a letter to Alexander Smyth of 17 January 1825: it is "merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy, nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams." Apocalyptic writing deserved no commentary, for "what has no meaning admits no explanation"; therefore, apocalyptic prophecies associated with Jesus deserved and would receive no attention from Jefferson in his Life and Morals of Jesus. (E. S. Gaustad, "Religion," in Merrill D. Peterson, ed., Thomas Jefferson: A Reference Biography, New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1986, p. 287.)

... our fellow citizens, after half a century of experience and prosperity, continue to approve the choice we made. May it be to the world, what I believe it will be, (to some parts sooner, to others later, but finally to all,) the signal of arousing men to burst the chains under which monkish ignorance and superstition had persuaded them to bind themselves, and to assume the blessings and security of self-government. That form which we have substituted, restores the free right to the unbounded exercise of reason and freedom of opinion. All eyes are opened, or opening, to the rights of man. The general spread of the light of science has already laid open to every view the palpable truth, that the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately, by the grace of God. These are grounds of hope for others. For ourselves, let the annual return of this day [Fourth of July] forever refresh our recollections of these rights, and an undiminished devotion to them.... (Thomas Jefferson, letter to Roger C. Weightman, June 24, 1826 [Jefferson's last letter, dated ten days before he died]; from Adrienne Koch, ed., The American Enlightenment: The Shaping of the American Experiment and a Free Society, New York: George Braziller, 1965, p. 372.)

Jefferson wrote voluminously to prove that Christianity was not part of the law of the land and that religion or irreligion was purely a private matter, not cognizable by the state. (Leonard W. Levy, Treason Against God: A History of the Offense of Blasphemy, New York: Schocken Books, 1981, p. 335.)

So much is Jefferson identified in the American mind with his battle for political liberty that it is difficult to entertain the possibility that he felt even more strongly about religious liberty. If the letters and activities of his post presidential years can be taken as a fair guide, however, he maintained an unrelenting vigilance with respect to freedom in religion, and an unrelenting, perhaps even unforgiving, distrust of all those who would seek in any way to mitigate or limit or nullify that freedom. (Edwin S. Gaustad, Faith of Our Fathers: Religion and the New Nation, San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1987, pp. 46-47.)

... Jefferson, who as a careful historian had made a study of the origin of the maxim [that the common law is inextricably linked with Christianity], challenged such an assertion. He noted that "the common law existed while the Anglo-Saxons were yet pagans, at a time when they had never yet heard the name of Christ pronounced or that such a character existed .... What a conspiracy this, between Church and State." (Leo Pfeffer, Religion, State, and the Burger Court, Buffalo, New York: Prometheus Books, 1984, p. 121.)

... The most revealing writings concerned the commonly repeated maxim that Christianity was part of the common law. In two posthumously published writings, an appendix to his Reports of Cases Determined in the General Court and a letter to Major John Cartwright, Thomas Jefferson took issue with the maxim. He traced the erroneous interpretation to a seventeenth-century law commentator who, Jefferson argued, misinterpreted a fifteenth-century precedent. He then traced the error forward to his favorite bte noire, Lord Mansfield, who wrote that "the essential principles of revealed religion are part of the common law." Jefferson responded with a classic, positivistic critique: Mansfield "leaves us at our peril to find out what, in the opinion of the judge, and according to the measures of his foot or his faith, are those essential principles of revealed religion, obligatory on us as part of the common law." (Daniel R. Ernst, "Church-State Issues and the Law: 1607-1870" in John F. Wilson, ed., Church and State in America: A Bibliographic Guide. The Colonial and Early National Periods," New York: Greenwood Press, 1986, p. 337. Ernst gives his source as Thomas Jefferson, "Whether Christianity is Part of the Common Law?")

It was what he did not like in religion that gave impetus to Jefferson's activity in that troublesome and often bloody arena. He did not like dogmatism, obscurantism, blind obedience, or any interference with the free exercise of the mind. Moreover, he did not like the tendency of religion to confuse truth with power, special insight with special privilege, and the duty to maintain with the right to persecute the dissenter. Ecclesiastical despotism was as reprehensible as despotism of the political sort, even when it justified itself, as it often did, in the name of doing good. This had been sufficiently evident in his native Virginia to give Jefferson every stimulus he needed to see that independence must be carried over into the realm of religion. (E. S. Gaustad, "Religion," in Merrill D. Peterson, ed., Thomas Jefferson: A Reference Biography, New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1986, p. 279.)

... If this [extending religion's influence on the basis of "reason alone"] is the path chosen by Omnipotence and Infallibility, what sense can there possibly be in "fallible and uninspired men ... setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible"? No sense at all, argued Jefferson, who found compulsion in religion to be irrational, impious, and tyrannical. If such compulsion is bad for the vulnerable citizen, its consequences are no more wholesome for the church: "It tends also to corrupt the principles of that very religion it is meant to encourage, by bribing, with a monopoly of worldly honours and emoluments, those who will externally profess and conform to it." (E. S. Gaustad, "Religion," in Merrill D. Peterson, ed., Thomas Jefferson: A Reference Biography, New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1986, p. 280.)

A final example of Jefferson's separationism may be drawn from his founding of the University of Virginia in the last years of his life. Prepared to transform the College of William and Mary into the principal university of the state, Jefferson would do so only if the college divested itself of all ties with sectarian religion--that is, with its old Anglicanism now represented by the Protestant Episcopal Church. The college declined to make that break with its past, and Jefferson proceeded with plans for his own university well to the west of Anglican-dominated tidewater Virginia. In Charlottesville this new school ("broad & liberal & modern," as Jefferson envisioned it in a letter to [Joseph] Priestly of 18 January 1800) opened in 1825 with professorships in languages and law, natural and moral philosophy, history and mathematics, but not in divinity. In Jefferson's view, as reported in Robert Healey's Jefferson on Religion in Public Education, not only did Virginia's laws prohibit such favoritism (for divinity or theology was inevitably sectarian), but high-quality education was not well served by those who preferred mystery to morals and divisive dogma to the unities of science. Too great a devotion to doctrine can drive men mad; if it does not have that tragic effect, it at least guarantees that a man's education will be mediocre. What is really significant in religion, its moral content, would be taught at the University of Virginia, but in philosophy, not divinity. If Almighty God has made the mind free, one of the ways to keep it free is to protect young minds from the clouded convolutions of theologians. Jefferson wanted education separated from religion because of his own conclusions concerning the nature of religion, its strengths and its weaknesses, its dark past and its possibly brighter future. (E. S. Gaustad, "Religion," in Merrill D. Peterson, ed., Thomas Jefferson: A Reference Biography, New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1986, pp. 282-283.)

Moving well beyond the traditional deistic triad of God, freedom, and immortality, Jefferson revealed his strongest feelings and convictions with regard to the ecclesiastics. On two counts he found them critically deficient. In the realm of politics and power, they were tyrannical; in the realm of theology and truth, they were perverse. Jefferson's strongest language is reserved for those clergy who, as he said in a letter to Moses Robinson of 23 March 1801, "had got a smell of union between church and state" and would impede the advance of liberty and science. Such clergy, whether in America or abroad, have so adulterated religion that it has become "a mere contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves" and a means of grasping "impious heresies, in order to force them down [men's] throats" (letter to Samuel Kercheval, 19 January 1810). In his old age, Jefferson softened his invective not one whit: "The Presbyterian clergy are the loudest, the most intolerant of all sects, the most tyrannical and ambitious, ready at the word of the lawgiver, if such a word could be obtained, to put the torch to the pile, and to rekindle in this virgin hemisphere, the flames in which their oracle Calvin consumed the poor Servetus, because he could not find in his Euclid the proposition which has demonstrated that three are one, and one is three." And if they cannot revive the holy inquisition of the Middle Ages, they will seek to mobilize the inquisition of public opinion, "that lord of the Universe" (letter to William Short, 13 April 1820). Jefferson, the enemy of all arbitrary and capricious power, found that which was clothed in the ceremonial garb of religion to be particularly despicable. Even more disturbing to Jefferson was the priestly perversion of simple truths. If "in this virgin hemisphere" it was no longer possible to burn men's bodies, it was still possible to stunt their minds. In the "revolution of 1800" that saw Jefferson's election to the presidency, the candidate wrote to his good friend Rush that while his views would please deists and rational Christians, they would never please that "irritable tribe of priests" who still hoped for government sanction and support. Nor would his election please them, "especially the Episcopalians and the Congregationalists." They fear that I will oppose their schemes of establishment. "And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man" (23 September 1800). It was this aspect of establishment that Jefferson most dreaded and most relentlessly opposed--not just the power, profit, and corruption that invariably accompanied state-sanctioned ecclesiasticism but the theological distortion and intellectual absurdity that passed for reason and good sense. We must not be held captive to "the Platonic mysticisms" or to the "gossamer fabrics of factitious religion." Nor must we ever again be required to confess that which mankind did not and could not comprehend, "for I suppose belief to be the assent of the mind to an intelligible proposition" (letter to John Adams, 22 August 1813). (E. S. Gaustad, "Religion," in Merrill D. Peterson, ed., Thomas Jefferson: A Reference Biography, New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1986, p. 291.)
 
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crazyfingers

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GOD4ME said:
There's no dogeing it. Americas laws and constatution was and still is based on Gods laws.
I suggest that you attempt to actually back that up. Here is the US Constitution. Why don't you locate your "God's law" in the constitution and then go locate it in the Bible. I'll be waiting for your detailed response.
 
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WannaKooky

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You know, given phaedrus's attempts to display where the Constitution mentions any Christian entity directly, then I can cite how the Tanakh, Vedas scriptures, Koran, and just about every other religious text and belief are involved in the basis of the Constitution. It's all coincidence that a verse in a Bible or Koran has the same message that one section of an article of the Constitution mentions. What is being asked is a DIRECT REFERENCE to a CHRISTIAN ENTITY in the Constitution. This means something like does it mention Jesus or the Trinity or Yahweh or Gospels? The answer would be no.
GOD4ME how do you explain your statement of the Constitution being based on God's laws? Laws against murder and stealing are not originally and exclusively Christian. Nor Jewish for that matter. 10 Commandment laws were actually aroudnd way before Moses came down a mountain. It's how civilizations like Mesopotamia and Egypt kept going strong for the time they did. You don't become a powerful nation with anarchy.
I just posted in a thread where someone tried to explain the 10 Commandments in American law. It was funny. The person cited colonial laws that put people to death who performed idolatry and didn't believe in the Christian God. That is unconstitutional, though very God's law-like.
 
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mark kennedy

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WannaKooky said:
You know, given phaedrus's attempts to display where the Constitution mentions any Christian entity directly, then I can cite how the Tanakh, Vedas scriptures, Koran, and just about every other religious text and belief are involved in the basis of the Constitution. It's all coincidence that a verse in a Bible or Koran has the same message that one section of an article of the Constitution mentions. What is being asked is a DIRECT REFERENCE to a CHRISTIAN ENTITY in the Constitution. This means something like does it mention Jesus or the Trinity or Yahweh or Gospels? The answer would be no.
GOD4ME how do you explain your statement of the Constitution being based on God's laws? Laws against murder and stealing are not originally and exclusively Christian. Nor Jewish for that matter. 10 Commandment laws were actually aroudnd way before Moses came down a mountain. It's how civilizations like Mesopotamia and Egypt kept going strong for the time they did. You don't become a powerful nation with anarchy.
I just posted in a thread where someone tried to explain the 10 Commandments in American law. It was funny. The person cited colonial laws that put people to death who performed idolatry and didn't believe in the Christian God. That is unconstitutional, though very God's law-like.

What a bold and baseless assertion, for one thing the religion of the founding fathers was essentially Christian and they expressed this in no uncertain terms. One only has to read John Locke to understand why it was important for Christian polititions to note appeal to the Bible for legal authority since the only true theocracy was Israel and this was expressed in no uncertain terms.

Ok, Jefferson was something of an atheist/agnostic, I'll concede that point but anyone contending that the Constitution is not based on Christian theology does not know their history. People like Washington would be appalled by the way religion is disparged in modern times and he made it clear that no one who did this could be considered a patriot.
 
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WannaKooky

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Just because most of the Founders' religion was Christian then the Constitution must be Christian in origin holds no water. If that were the case then Roe v Wade is based on Christianity because most of the Supreme Court justices were Christian and so on and so on.
I'll give you an example of how a Constitution bases itself on a religion: the interim Iraq Constitution. It says it will base part of itself on Islam. That's religion-based. America's Constitution doesn't do that.
 
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