To our apologists! The good thief and baptism!

thereselittleflower · Mar 31, 2005

I was looking something else up, and came across a comment that made me stand still . . . So I am going to put this out to all of you who do apologetic work for critique and thoughts . . I am tired, so if I missed something obvious, please don't hesitate to point it out . ..

The good thief, to whom, from the cross, while still alive(this is important) Jesus tells him that today he will be with Him in paradise . . .

The argument is that the good thief wasn't baptized, and he was saved, so obviously baptism is not necessary . .

There is something here that I had always missed when defending against this argument, and it is this . . .

JESUS HAD NOT YET DIED!

When we are baptized, we are baptized INTO HIS DEATH . . .

Since Jesus had not yet died, one could not be baptized into His death yet . . .

So the good thief was not saved under the New Covenant, which had not yet started, as Jesus had not yet died . . . So, the rationale would be that the good thief did not need baptism, since he was saved by faith in Christ before the New Covenant started . .

OK . . .critique away!

Peace in Him!

seebs · Mar 31, 2005

Is baptism into death or life?

Anyway, isn't this a lot of work when we can just say "Jesus can do whatever He wants"?

(For that matter, to be REALLY picky: What if John the Baptist had baptised the thief earlier? Not all baptised people are free of crime...)

thereselittleflower · Mar 31, 2005

LOL

Seebs . . here is the verse I am thinking of:

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Hoonbaba · Mar 31, 2005

The idea that the 'good thief' (sounds kinda funny doesn't it?) went to paradise suggests that baptism of desire is a reality, thus doing away with the 'feenyite' claim that those who aren't baptized into the Catholic Church are doomed forever.

seebs · Mar 31, 2005

Oh, man. Romans 6.

I occasionally stare at Romans 6, wondering if I'll ever have the slightest clue what it means. So far, it has always won that staring contest.

Hoonbaba · Mar 31, 2005

thereselittleflower said:
LOL

Seebs . . here is the verse I am thinking of:

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

By the way, this appears to parallel the following passage:

20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. (Gal 2:20)

Similarly...

12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. (Col 2:12)

Ann M · Mar 31, 2005

seebs said:
Oh, man. Romans 6.

I occasionally stare at Romans 6, wondering if I'll ever have the slightest clue what it means. So far, it has always won that staring contest.

ROTFL.... I just had a vision of you looking at that page and suddenly a huge pair of eyes appeared on the page..and Blinked!!!

seebs · Mar 31, 2005

Ann M said:
ROTFL.... I just had a vision of you looking at that page and suddenly a huge pair of eyes appeared on the page..and Blinked!!!

Now I'm going to be afraid to sleep with the lights out.

(Just kidding; I almost never go to bed before dawn anyway.)

D'Ann · Mar 31, 2005

thereselittleflower said:
I was looking something else up, and came across a comment that made me stand still . . . So I am going to put this out to all of you who do apologetic work for critique and thoughts . . I am tired, so if I missed something obvious, please don't hesitate to point it out . ..

The good thief, to whom, from the cross, while still alive(this is important) Jesus tells him that today he will be with Him in paradise . . .

The argument is that the good thief wasn't baptized, and he was saved, so obviously baptism is not necessary . .

There is something here that I had always missed when defending against this argument, and it is this . . .

JESUS HAD NOT YET DIED!

When we are baptized, we are baptized INTO HIS DEATH . . .

Since Jesus had not yet died, one could not be baptized into His death yet . . .

So the good thief was not saved under the New Covenant, which had not yet started, as Jesus had not yet died . . . So, the rationale would be that the good thief did not need baptism, since he was saved by faith in Christ before the New Covenant started . .

OK . . .critique away!

Peace in Him!

I'm not sure... you make some valid points and this is interesting. I'm a bit tired myself and so... please anyone... correct me too...LOL

My understanding of this particular issue regarding baptism... Jesus gave the good thief - grace. The same kind of grace that applies to a baby who may die before being baptized.

Also, we may look at this in another way... God is not limited to our time and space. He will make allowances in some extreme situation... similar to the good thief on the cross or a child or baby who may die before being baptized.

Baptism is a Sacrament... a promise ... that the person/child is being committed to Jesus and serving Jesus and the CC. It is also a cleansing, purifying and sanctifying process... and the invitation for the Holy Spirit to dwell within us.... at least, I think. I hope this is correct and helpful... if not, please - let me know...

God's Peace,

D'Ann

Paul S · Mar 31, 2005

Another point about Jesus not having died yet - the Old Covenant was still in effect, so the entrance ritual was not baptism, but circumcision. Although the Bible doesn't say, the good thief was most likely a Jew, so he would have been circumcised and thus part of the Covenant.

Wolseley · Mar 31, 2005

Why did Jesus die?

To pay the penalty for sin. He died because of sin.

So when we are baptized, what is taken away from us?

Original sin.

So when we are baptized into Christ's death, what are we dying to?

Sin.

That's what being "baptized into Christ's death" means---that we are dying to sin. We don't have to die because of sin; He did that. We die to sin, meaning that because of our baptism, sin no longer has any power over us.

thereselittleflower · Mar 31, 2005

Ann M said:
ROTFL.... I just had a vision of you looking at that page and suddenly a huge pair of eyes appeared on the page..and Blinked!!!

RFLOL

I had something similar just now when I read his post

Peace in Him!

thereselittleflower · Mar 31, 2005

D'Ann said:
I'm not sure... you make some valid points and this is interesting. I'm a bit tired myself and so... please anyone... correct me too...LOL

My understanding of this particular issue regarding baptism... Jesus gave the good thief - grace. The same kind of grace that applies to a baby who may die before being baptized.

Also, we may look at this in another way... God is not limited to our time and space. He will make allowances in some extreme situation... similar to the good thief on the cross or a child or baby who may die before being baptized.

Baptism is a Sacrament... a promise ... that the person/child is being committed to Jesus and serving Jesus and the CC. It is also a cleansing, purifying and sanctifying process... and the invitation for the Holy Spirit to dwell within us.... at least, I think. I hope this is correct and helpful... if not, please - let me know...

God's Peace,

D'Ann

Hi D'Ann . . . I know . . this is how I usually approach it, but I hadn't really considered before that Christ, having not yet died, had not yet birthed the Church from His side. So, like the Old Testament saints, the good theif would not have needed baptism. . . . ie, if the good thief had been dying in a way that would have permitted baptism, would it have been necessary?

Peace in Him!

ShannonMcCatholic · Mar 31, 2005

I just always assumed that it was Baptism of Desire...

Benedicta00 · Mar 31, 2005

thereselittleflower said:
I was looking something else up, and came across a comment that made me stand still . . . So I am going to put this out to all of you who do apologetic work for critique and thoughts . . I am tired, so if I missed something obvious, please don't hesitate to point it out . ..

The good thief, to whom, from the cross, while still alive(this is important) Jesus tells him that today he will be with Him in paradise . . .

The argument is that the good thief wasn't baptized, and he was saved, so obviously baptism is not necessary . .

There is something here that I had always missed when defending against this argument, and it is this . . .

JESUS HAD NOT YET DIED!

When we are baptized, we are baptized INTO HIS DEATH . . .

Since Jesus had not yet died, one could not be baptized into His death yet . . .

So the good thief was not saved under the New Covenant, which had not yet started, as Jesus had not yet died . . . So, the rationale would be that the good thief did not need baptism, since he was saved by faith in Christ before the New Covenant started . .

OK . . .critique away!

Peace in Him!

But who dies first, Jesus or the thief? If Christ had died first- then the thief was baptized into his death. If not then he was waiting in the bosom of Abraham for Christ to open the gates.

Dominus Fidelis · Mar 31, 2005

Simple: The Sacraments are the ORDINARY means of salvation.

Dominus Fidelis · Mar 31, 2005

(Just kidding; I almost never go to bed before dawn anyway.)

So you are a vampire!

Benedicta00 · Mar 31, 2005

D'Ann said:
I'm not sure... you make some valid points and this is interesting. I'm a bit tired myself and so... please anyone... correct me too...LOL

My understanding of this particular issue regarding baptism... Jesus gave the good thief - grace. The same kind of grace that applies to a baby who may die before being baptized.

Also, we may look at this in another way... God is not limited to our time and space. He will make allowances in some extreme situation... similar to the good thief on the cross or a child or baby who may die before being baptized.

Baptism is a Sacrament... a promise ... that the person/child is being committed to Jesus and serving Jesus and the CC. It is also a cleansing, purifying and sanctifying process... and the invitation for the Holy Spirit to dwell within us.... at least, I think. I hope this is correct and helpful... if not, please - let me know...

God's Peace,

D'Ann

I agree, Love covers a multitude of sin. I think the good thief was saved through perfect contrition. I think God gave him the special graces he needed to believe in Christ- then saw Christ suffering, fell in love with him and repented with perfection and made his confession to Christ. That was his baptism of desire- if he died before Christ, then he went to the place of waiting. If he died after- he still was in limbo, because Christ had to rise still to open heaven.

Benedicta00 · Mar 31, 2005

thereselittleflower said:
Hi D'Ann . . . I know . . this is how I usually approach it, but I hadn't really considered before that Christ, having not yet died, had not yet birthed the Church from His side. So, like the Old Testament saints, the good theif would not have needed baptism. . . . ie, if the good thief had been dying in a way that would have permitted baptism, would it have been necessary?

Peace in Him!

Okay, I get what you are trying to say There wasnt any baptism necessary at all.

But I am sure the OT saints were saved through the anticipation of Christs death the same way Mary was.

JeffreyLloyd · Mar 31, 2005

Q: If, as Jesus says, we must be baptized in order to enter the kingdom of God (John 3:5) then how could the thief on the cross (Luke 23:40-43) be saved?

A: Several reasons:

The thief on the cross may have been baptized for all we know. A lot of people received baptism at the hands of the apostles (John 3:22-4:3 -- note how this comes right on the heels of the conversation in which Jesus stressed the need for baptism).
The Christian age had not yet begun, thusChristian baptism was not yet required.
In any event the thief clearly had baptism of desire. He was willing to do whatever it took to align himself with Jesus and be saved; it was simply physical impossibility that prevented him from doing anything while on the cross.

Any one of these reasons, and especially the last two, are sufficient to show how the thief could have been saved.

It is somewhat amazing that people ever throw his up as an objection to Jesus' teaching on the necessity of baptism. The Catholic Church has never considered this a problem since the answers are so obvious. Those anti-Catholics who try to use this to undermine Christ's teachings on baptism reveal by citing this example that they have not thought through the issue sufficiently.

To our apologists! The good thief and baptism!

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