Question-Something I have noticed

Sign Of The Fish Burger · Jan 31, 2005

I have a question for you.
Being the Courting couples mod, and between the past few services at church, and an interresting conversation with my housemate the other day, I am noticing that more and more young couples (NOT married, seriously courting couples) are seriously struggling with sexual impurity.

Let me explain.
I see thread after thread of couples who are courting, or engaged who are really great christians, who are having a really really hard time with sexual impurity.
Last Sunday that is what our service was about. It was the most touching service ever. To see so many couples who went forward to pray who were dealing with this (whether it be sex before marriage, everything BUT sex, inappropriate content etc...)
Then last night, I had an interresting conversation with my roomate. She is an amazingly strong woman of God. She has a great relationship with her boyfriend of a few years, but she came to me last night because although they have not had sex, they have done everything but, and the only thing keeping them from sex is that she dosent want to get pregnate.
I hear from so many couples who say that its so easy, and that they want to, find excuses to, and then come to a point where they know it is wrong, but really dont want to stop.
So I have been thinking about it quite a bit since last night, and I am wondering just how many more couples are out there who are struggling with but feel so ashamed that they cant say anything to anyone. Are we, as christians so quick to judge and throw bible verses at them (when they clearly know what the Bible says about it) that they just dont know what to do? It's kinda like inappropriate content. A few years ago, everyone knew it was a big problem, but it was so embarassing that no one would ever talk about it, or admit to it. But we seem to be moving forward and there is support for those who are struggling with inappropriate content addiction. Not that the church has become accepting of it, but its open, and the church as a whole seem more accpeting towards those who are caught up in it.

I dont want to start a debate, we all know sex before marriage is wrong, but I am just trying to understand what is going on here.

But I do have a question for you:
Did you and your husband/wife wait to have sex until after you were married? If yes, were you a christian at the time. If so, how did you do it? Did you not have the desire to? Or did you really struggle with it?

Or did you have sex before marriage, because like many other young people you were caught up in this sexual sin? Also were you a christian at the time? Or no?
P.S. I also created a thread in the woman's forum, because I want to get unique responses form the women over there who may just be dating and not yet married.

Svt4Him · Feb 1, 2005

We were Christians, but had had sex before becoming Christians with other people. We waited, but it wasn't easy. We are glad we did, but honestly my greatest regret was that I had sex as a non-Christian.

Sign Of The Fish Burger · Feb 1, 2005

Svt4Him said:
We were Christians, but had had sex before becoming Christians with other people. We waited, but it wasn't easy. We are glad we did, but honestly my greatest regret was that I had sex as a non-Christian.

May I asked you how you did it? I am looking for advice so I can try and help myself, and friends who are struggling with this issue.
How did you manage to not have sex before marriage? Even with boundaries, I am finding that people just cant stick to them.

Whats up? LIke it said, its breaking my heart to see so many people struggling with this same thing.

LiberatedChick · Feb 1, 2005

Sign Of The Fish said:
Did you and your husband/wife wait to have sex until after you were married? If yes, were you a christian at the time.

No and no.

Or did you have sex before marriage, because like many other young people you were caught up in this sexual sin? Also were you a christian at the time? Or no?

To us it wasn't a sin. We didn't believe in God, we didn't believe in sin and so sex just seemed like a natural progression of a serious relationship. I think that's how Christian couples get caught up in this because the instinct is to keep on taking things one step further and so they think "Why not? I'm in a serious relationship and am going to marry this person so why wait a few more weeks/months/years etc until that". I know that even though neither of us were Christian at the time thoughts of "Why shouldn't I do this as I'm going to marry this man?" did cross my mind.

fruitrach · Feb 1, 2005

Good thread!

Yes we waited but we pretty much did everything but and we weren't best pleased with ourselves for it either.

What was our downfall? Too much time spent alone together in a bedroom or late at night. It's a really hard balance to strike because time together is really important but excessive physical activity just doesn't happen if there's someone else in the room.

Another thing we noticed was that we were FAR more likely to get physical after we'd prayed together. Praying together builds such an intimacy that its kinda hard not to "follow through" if you see what I mean?

Evie · Feb 1, 2005

Sign Of The Fish said:
I have a question for you.
Being the Courting couples mod, and between the past few services at church, and an interresting conversation with my housemate the other day, I am noticing that more and more young couples (NOT married, seriously courting couples) are seriously struggling with sexual impurity.

Let me explain.
I see thread after thread of couples who are courting, or engaged who are really great christians, who are having a really really hard time with sexual impurity.
Last Sunday that is what our service was about. It was the most touching service ever. To see so many couples who went forward to pray who were dealing with this (whether it be sex before marriage, everything BUT sex, inappropriate content etc...)
Then last night, I had an interresting conversation with my roomate. She is an amazingly strong woman of God. She has a great relationship with her boyfriend of a few years, but she came to me last night because although they have not had sex, they have done everything but, and the only thing keeping them from sex is that she dosent want to get pregnate.
I hear from so many couples who say that its so easy, and that they want to, find excuses to, and then come to a point where they know it is wrong, but really dont want to stop.
So I have been thinking about it quite a bit since last night, and I am wondering just how many more couples are out there who are struggling with but feel so ashamed that they cant say anything to anyone. Are we, as christians so quick to judge and throw bible verses at them (when they clearly know what the Bible says about it) that they just dont know what to do? It's kinda like inappropriate content. A few years ago, everyone knew it was a big problem, but it was so embarassing that no one would ever talk about it, or admit to it. But we seem to be moving forward and there is support for those who are struggling with inappropriate content addiction. Not that the church has become accepting of it, but its open, and the church as a whole seem more accpeting towards those who are caught up in it.

I dont want to start a debate, we all know sex before marriage is wrong, but I am just trying to understand what is going on here.

But I do have a question for you:
Did you and your husband/wife wait to have sex until after you were married? If yes, were you a christian at the time. If so, how did you do it? Did you not have the desire to? Or did you really struggle with it?

Or did you have sex before marriage, because like many other young people you were caught up in this sexual sin? Also were you a christian at the time? Or no?
P.S. I also created a thread in the woman's forum, because I want to get unique responses form the women over there who may just be dating and not yet married.

mmhhmm,we were not Christians so we did before we were married.

ptgd1st · Feb 1, 2005

We had sex before we were married and for awhile we felt bad but then we justified it to ourselves. We were Christians when we started. I think we justified it to ourselves because we were committed to each other. Everyone believes differently but I believe a wedding is an institution of man. Marriage is an institution of God which is only consecrated after intercourse. We felt that after sex we were now married in God's eyes and we were committed to that. As far as the world was concerned we were not married but to ourselves and God we were. That is how we feel and we have no regrets.

Yitzchak · Feb 1, 2005

I have to think that my generation has let the younger generation down in many areas including this one. I would say that the support of extended family, friends, and churches has not been what it should be. Espeacially the example that has been set.

I have seen holiness issues go between the two extremes and been part of holiness churches where they just sucked the life right out of you. There have not been very many good models for this generation to follow when it comes to holiness issues. The combination of celebrating life and living it to the full combined with a passion for holiness is seldom seen in the church of my generation. We have had a passion for holiness out of fear and peer pressure but seldom one out of love and getting our deepest needs met in a healthy and holy way.

I do think that God is restoring that to this younger generation but it will take some time to find the balance.

Peter · Feb 1, 2005

ptgd1st sums up the youth's attitude. "Just me and my woman." The attitude expressed is one that is all too common in todays Western expression of Christianity. There is no sense that marriage is a holy union, a sacrament. It is not sacred, it is selfish.

To those who hold Orthodox views, marriage IS an icon of Christ and His bride, the Church. Jesus blessed the so called "institution of man" by being present at a wedding, and by making sure the event was a success.

The marriage bed, sex, is also an icon of the love Christ has for His bride. Christ didn't just shack up with some broad. He loved (loves) her to death, His death.

The view expressed above also indicates a lack of any kind of attainable holiness. Again, this idea that we can become better, or are accountable in some ways for our sin, is one that has been LOST, for the most part, in the west. The Church has always taught that man can "be holy, because I am holy" (I Peter 1). Too many in the west have rejected sin as a reality and a tragedy, and accept it as being normal. Sin is abnormal. God did not create man to sin, He created man to share in His divine nature.

A former football coach of a major university had a young man show up for practice wearing a t-shirt that read "Help stamp out virginity." the coach, a Christian man, did not ask the young man to change shirts. He simply asked him to do the coach a favor. "Take the shirt home," he said. "And put in in a box. And when your daughter brings home her first date, give him the shirt."

I could sit here and justify and say my wife and I "did everything but have sex." The fact is, "everything but sex" IS sex. (Does anyone here remember William Jefferson Clinton? Did he have sex, or was it "everything but sex"?) My wife and I regret it. And we don't want our kids to make the same mistake, the same sin. We are being proactive in their lives regarding sex and it's place in our lives. Just like Christ's love for me, we are encouraging them to save themselves for their spouse.

Peace.

Peter

Bowling Pin · Feb 2, 2005

My husband and I had sex before marriage and are (and were at the time) Christians. We had sex for the very reason you stated--all that drama and struggle and anguish that you describe all these Christians couples putting themselves through is foolish to us.

God gave us to each other, he gave us love and happiness in each other and with that love comes a natural and beautiful desire for each other. So once we had an engagement intact and a wedding commitment made, we knew it was right for us to consummate our relationship with joy and God's blessing.

I think the angst and self-abuse that comes from the conservative church views on premarital sex are a problem in our young christian society. They breed all kinds of hang ups and guilt in something that is a gift from god, not a dirty sin.

2Bhumble · Feb 2, 2005

My wife and I were Christians when we dated. We never went beyond kissing and waited for sex until we were married. Don't ask me how :sorry:

The temptation was there but we just didn't act on it.

Peter · Feb 3, 2005

Bowling Pin, I disagree.

The ceremony, the ritual, the act of a wedding is VERY important. The ceremony itself is a witness of Christ and the Church. By your argument, the theology of God and salvation should be "Christ died in vain. He should have just said 'Come on you guys, I love you, you love me, let's just skip this whole death, burial, resurrection thing and live happily ever after.'"

Again, bowling pin's response is indicitive of the natural progression of a Christianity that denys any kind of personal holiness, or sharing in the likeness of God.

Peace.

Peter

Bowling Pin · Feb 3, 2005

Peter, please don't elevate sexual intercourse to the level of Christ's sacrificial death on the cross. That is offensive and blasphemous.

The whole point of my post and why my husband and I made the choices we did is because, contrary to the uptight religious busybodies in the conservative church, sex isn't the be-all-end-all activity in this life.

Christ's death on the cross is!

Don't ever, ever presume that because I refuse to get prude about sex that I belittle my Savior's love and sacrifice for me. That is really gross of you to do.

Peter · Feb 3, 2005

I don't elevate anything. This is the message the Church has been teaching from the beginning. If anything, to deny the sexual union of a man and woman as being within the framework of Christ's relationship with His Bride is to denegrate it.

Peace.

Peter

WayneH · Feb 3, 2005

Peter said:
I don't elevate anything. This is the message the Church has been teaching from the beginning. If anything, to deny the sexual union of a man and woman as being within the framework of Christ's relationship with His Bride is to denegrate it.

Peace.

Peter

AMEN PETER.......... too many christians and the church are becoming complacent in the world today.. I've taught both My daughters what is right and what is wrong.. its up to them to decide where they draw the lines - so far - PTL they feel the same way - premarital sex before the wedding is wrong.. I can understand how and why so many get caught up in the worldly views - however - OUR FOCUS is supposed to be GOD.. HIS WORD says pre-marital sex is wrong - and thats good enough for me...

How can a person overcome the temptation - first - do not allow yourself to be in a situation that makes it easy to go against your views.. it can be hard - maybe what CHRISTIAN teens need is the old fashion COURTING.. Her boyfriend spends most of his time at our house with parents around somewhere - or they may go to his house under same supervision.. ONE RULE I gave both of them - unless they are at a red light or something close - when the car stops - one of them is out of the car.. THEY BOTH agree with that rule.. They are allowed to go to dinner and / or movies... but after the movie they come home.. this keeps the temptation away from them..

My whole point to them was this is a time to know one another - to grow in the relationship - feel out the pros and cons of their partner and allow God to direct the relationship.. I guess it helps that My daughter found a man who respects the same views as I have and she has..

God Bless....

Mr Wesley · Feb 3, 2005

Gotta agree with Peter on this one. The Marriage ceremony was a simple thing in biblical times that has been elevated to the multi-billion dollar industry that it is today, but that doesn't change the fact that the public declaration of marriage is imperative to the process. If you and your spouse (to-be) agree before God that you are married, that's great, but unless that's confirmed in public, it's worthless.

I'm sure I'm going to offend someone with this, but people who use the "We're married in the eyes of God" defense are just rationalizing their sin. Now, I do know at least one couple who declared their marriage one time at a singles retreat, moved in together the following week, but didn't get a license or have a big wedding ceremony until several months later. While that wasn't standard--and our circle of friends argued about it for years--we were never able to find anything biblical that strictly forbade it.

As for myself, I'll get chalked up in the 'Everything But' category. We were both Christians, and I was a virgin, but when you're alone in the house, temptation will cause you to rationalize some decisions you never thought you'd make.

ptgd1st · Feb 3, 2005

Mr Wesley said:
Gotta agree with Peter on this one. The Marriage ceremony was a simple thing in biblical times that has been elevated to the multi-billion dollar industry that it is today, but that doesn't change the fact that the public declaration of marriage is imperative to the process. If you and your spouse (to-be) agree before God that you are married, that's great, but unless that's confirmed in public, it's worthless.

I'm sure I'm going to offend someone with this, but people who use the "We're married in the eyes of God" defense are just rationalizing their sin. Now, I do know at least one couple who declared their marriage one time at a singles retreat, moved in together the following week, but didn't get a license or have a big wedding ceremony until several months later. While that wasn't standard--and our circle of friends argued about it for years--we were never able to find anything biblical that strictly forbade it.

As for myself, I'll get chalked up in the 'Everything But' category. We were both Christians, and I was a virgin, but when you're alone in the house, temptation will cause you to rationalize some decisions you never thought you'd make.

What makes it worthless? And since when are we supposed to seek public affirmation of anything? It is what is in our hearts that matters. And only God knows that. So it seems to me this is an issue of God, man and women.

Yitzchak · Feb 3, 2005

I think the issue of whether there has to be a public ceremony is debatable. Plenty of couples elope and while they make their comittment legal, it is not a huge public ceremony. I think of the bible story of Isaac and Rebekkah. While there could be a story between the lines that isn't recorded , it doesn't mention anything about a ceremony. They had an agreement to marry and she moved into his tent.

I do think "we are married in God's eyes " can be an excuse for some. But what makes a marriage invalid, scripturally speaking just because there wasn't a public ceremony?? If a couple takes vows to eachother, just between the two of them and God , does that vow stand??? What about Adam and Eve? or the people who lived right after the flood? Certainly there is room for a vow taken between the couple being valid in God's eyes.

Having sex alone does not therefore mean marriage. But having a covenant agreement between the couple, in my opinion is binding. There are many good reasons to support a public and official ceremony. But I have a lot of trouble with saying someone's marriage is invalid just because they don't have that. Even the law allows for common law marriage after a couple who had no official ceremony lives together for a certain number of years.

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