Confession

Hoonbaba · Apr 20, 2002

There's still something I didn't quite get.

If I were to commit a venial sin and I'm not Catholic, then would I have to go to a Catholic priest and do confession? Or would I be able to go straight to Jesus?

For some reason it almost sounds as if it's absolutely required to go to a Catholic priest to receive forgiveness, as if I can't going to Jesus myself.

-Jason

pax · Apr 20, 2002

According to Roman Catholic standards (I think) your Baptism makes you a Christian. For more on the Faith/works thing:

For he who said, "You shall not commit adultery," also said, "You shall not kill." Even if you do not commit adultery but kill, you have become a transgressor of the law.
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So speak and so act as people who will be judged by the law of freedom. 5
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For the judgment is merciless to one who has not shown mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
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6 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
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If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
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and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
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So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
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Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
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You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
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Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
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Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
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You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
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Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
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See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
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And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
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For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Pax

VOW · Apr 20, 2002

To Jason:

You can ALWAYS go to Jesus!

The thing about confession is this: when you pray directly to God, you can, through no fault of God, sometimes feel like God isn't listening. That's a screw-up on our end of the communication, often because we've got sin plugging up our souls like cotton stuffed in your ears.

With confession to a priest, you get immediate feedback, which helps to clear that sin from your soul, so as to ease the communication between God and yourself. Kinda like the priest reaching over and pulling the cotton out of your ears and saying, "Now, doesn't that help?"

Peace be with you,
~VOW

Hoonbaba · Apr 20, 2002

The problem that I tend to notice with Catholicism is that the faith + works sounds like it contradicts Eph 2:8-9.

But then again, the faith + works is probably given by God's grace (Eph 2:8-9) =)

-Jason

VOW · Apr 20, 2002

(I guess I haven't had enough coffee yet....)

pax · Apr 20, 2002

Originally posted by Hoonbaba
There's still something I didn't quite get.

If I were to commit a venial sin and I'm not Catholic, then would I have to go to a Catholic priest and do confession? Or would I be able to go straight to Jesus?

For some reason it almost sounds as if it's absolutely required to go to a Catholic priest to receive forgiveness, as if I can't going to Jesus myself.

-Jason

Venial sins can be forgiven outside of Sacramental Confession. When you go to a priest for confession he is a REPRESENATIVE of Christ. He will absolve you of your sins IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, SON, AND HOLY SPIRIT. Going to confession to a priest isn't downplaying the role of Christ. He gave his apostles the power to forgive and retain sins. Our Bishops are successors of the Apostles and when priests are ordained they receive that power to forgive and retain. Christ wouldn't have given his disciples that power if he didn't want them to use it.

Hoonbaba · Apr 20, 2002

Originally posted by VOW
To Jason:

You can ALWAYS go to Jesus!

The thing about confession is this: when you pray directly to God, you can, through no fault of God, sometimes feel like God isn't listening. That's a screw-up on our end of the communication, often because we've got sin plugging up our souls like cotton stuffed in your ears.

With confession to a priest, you get immediate feedback, which helps to clear that sin from your soul, so as to ease the communication between God and yourself. Kinda like the priest reaching over and pulling the cotton out of your ears and saying, "Now, doesn't that help?"

Peace be with you,
~VOW

Oh! I get it now! =)

That cleared up a lot!
Thank you VERY much!

But does that apply to mortal sins too? (not that I committed any LOL!!)

-Jason

patriarch · Apr 20, 2002

"But does that apply to mortal sins too?"

Does what apply to mortal sins, too, Jason? Don't mind answering your question, but don't want to answer one you haven't asked

Lee

isshinwhat · Apr 20, 2002

Jason,
I posted way back a reference to Matthew 16:18 and 18:18. Do you remember my saying, maybe in the first post I wrote that was directed to you, that it is hard having fathers, sometimes? As a Catholic, I have put myself under the shepards that God has chosen to lead His Church. Those shepards have told me that they require me, as a Catholic, to go to confession to seek forgiveness of mortal sin. Is it a burden...yes, but a gift, too. I say it is a burden because sin is a burden. It is a very hard thing sometimes to confess to someone what you have done, but the reward for doing so is great. I think KC said it before, but the Grace of God is clearly evident in the sacrament. I can't imagine not confessing to a priest now. The Good Shepard left behind other shepards to make sure I have covered my bases and am still moving up the mountain. I said it before, and I will say it again...it is hard having fathers, but life sure is better with them around.

God bless,

Neal

Hoonbaba · Apr 20, 2002

Originally posted by patriarch
"But does that apply to mortal sins too?"

Does what apply to mortal sins, too, Jason? Don't mind answering your question, but don't want to answer one you haven't asked

Lee

In other words, do I have to go to a priest to get mortal sins dealt with or can I go directly to Jesus?

I was thinking of this particular scenario:

Let's assume that I wasn't a Christian, and I was stranded on an island with no priest around. And the other day I committed some horrible sin.

Would I go to hell, even if some Christian baptized me in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

The thing I don't understand is that one friend I know left the Catholic church because many Catholics seemed to stress the need to receive forgiveness from a priest rather than going to Jesus about it. To me this almost sounds like "Neo-Judaism" where we have to go to continually go to a priest and bring a sacrifice and such over and over and over.

Is this what it is? Or is this a big misconception that evangelicals have?

-Jason

isshinwhat · Apr 20, 2002

I was thinking of this particular scenario:

Let's assume that I wasn't a Christian, and I was stranded on an island with no priest around. And the other day I committed some horrible sin.

Would I go to hell, even if some Christian baptized me in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

Oh, no! A person who was not Christian but was baptized is cleansed from all his/her sins, mortal or otherwise at the moment they are baptized. Even in the case of the person stranded on a deserted island you spoke of, I believe that a Baptism of Desire would cover them if Christ moved them to repentance. That means that they would have been baptized had they known the necessity of it.

Anyone can, but doesn't always, have the Holy sorrow necessary for forgiveness from Christ. That is why the Church requires Catholics to go to confession. It is for our safety that they were given "the ministry of reconciliation," (2 Corinthians 5:18). They are watching our backs, so to speak. Through the mercy of Christ, they know there is grace conferred through confession.

2 Corinthians 7
10 For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation and brings no regret, but worldly grief produces death.

perfect Contrition = godly grief
imperfect contrition = worldly grief

Remember, all is a gift,

Neal

patriarch · Apr 20, 2002

Originally posted by Hoonbaba

In other words, do I have to go to a priest to get mortal sins dealt with or can I go directly to Jesus?

Well, mortal sins are the big worry, because unrepented unconfessed mortal sin means that the person is living without God in this world and in danger of eternal damnation should he die.

You can *always* go directly to Jesus, and you should. It would be a big mistake not to repent of your sin and confess it to Jesus as soon as possible. However, no one is a good judge in his own case. We are prone to illusions of all kinds, thinking that great sins are not such a big deal, and thinking that little sins are bigger than they really are.

That is one reason why the Lord instituted the Sacrament of Confession, both to free us of our guilt and so that we will lay the matter before someone who can help us be more objective.

The Sacrament is the ordinary means of obtaining forgiveness. What does this mean? Well, the ordinary way of dealing with sickness is to consult a physician, which isn't to say that Our Lord doesn't work miracles and heal people as well. Certainly a person can be forgiven outside the Sacrament of Confession, but the ordinary means is to obtain it through confessing your sins to a priest, who is a doctor of souls. When dealing with mortal sins, you don't wantt to be relying on the impressions of a sin-seared conscience , but you want to lay the matter before someone with apostolic authority who can authoritatively absolve you.

The thing I don't understand is that one friend I know left the Catholic church because many Catholics seemed to stress the need to receive forgiveness from a priest rather than going to Jesus about it. To me this almost sounds like "Neo-Judaism" where we have to go to continually go to a priest and bring a sacrifice and such over and over and over.

Is this what it is? Or is this a big misconception that evangelicals have?

Click to expand...

Yes, I think it is a huge misconception. For one thing, it is a false juxtaposition: Jesus or the priest. Catholics don't look at it that way at all. A more apt way of putting it for us is "Jesus *in* the priest" You don't understand what the priest is for us, but this illustration should help:

You know that at Mass the priest says, "This is my body" over the bread and "This is my blood" over the wine, and the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ.
But who has power to change ordinary bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ *except God Himself.* Who spoke the words? The priest. Who acted through the words the priest spoke? Jesus.

But you say, "I don't understand!" Well, if we understood God and His ways, then we would be on His level, which is why these things are called mysteries of the faith.

In the same way, Jesus acts through the priest in the Sacrament of Confession. The priest does not forgive. Jesus forgives through the priest. Again, when I enter the confessional, it is not to encounter man, but the one mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ. This in fact happens.

As for sacrifices being offered again and again, this is another huge misconception. There is one Sacrifice, the Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross, which the Mass makes present in an unbloody manner. In the Mass the priest and the victim are the same as on Calvary. It is not a different sacrifice.

A very crude example, on television now you will see again and again pictures of the Church of the Nativity, where two hundred Palestinian gunmen are holed up. One Church of the Nativity depicted on millions of television sets around the world. So then, are there millions of Churches of the Nativity? No, there is one Church of the Nativity made present on millions of different television sets. There is one Sacrifice that took place around the year 37 AD, which the priest of your hometown will make present on the altar of your local Catholic Church tomorrow morning. One Sacrifice. One Priest, the Lord Jesus Christ. One Victim, the Lord Jesus Christ, made available to us now for our spiritual food nearly two thousand years after the Last Supper. What goodness!

Lee

Hoonbaba · Apr 20, 2002

Thank you Lee I understand it now =)

Actually, as a charismatic it reminds me of the gift of prophecy. The 'prophet' would literally speaks "as one speaking the very words of God" (1 Peter 4:11)

It's not that a prophet is the one literally claiming to be God, but rather he is/was an instrument used by God.

So it seems it's the exact same thing for the priest.

-Jason

Augustine · Apr 20, 2002

Hoonbaba,

I'm sorry if I'm overdoing it with all the questions:

Does the Catholic Church teach that confession to a priest ABSOLUTELY necessary for forgiveness of sins?

As a precept of law for Baptized persons; yes.

Absolutely necessary though? Strictly speaking, no.

It is possible to have one's sins forgiven via perfect contrition (genuine, absolute sorrow before God, not simply because one fears what He'll do to them...much like being sorry only because you were caught, but sorry to the point you're sad you've offended God because He is good and Holy.)

However the problem is we have no capacity on our own to judge whether we're perfectly contrite or not. Unless God actually opens the clouds, and says to you "you're forgiven", you have no right to presume.

As a precept of law, for Baptized persons confession is required for the remission of serious (mortal) sins, which are seen as damaging a person's relationship to the Church, and destroying their relationship with God. None can be a "son of God" by grace, if they do the works of the "sons of satan". Confession of sins is the only way known to have any certainty about the remission of those sins if one is contrite (even if it's only imperfect contrition, the Sacrament is efficacious.)

Also, since it is the Church which is the steward and guardian of the Holy Mysteries, it must re-admit grievous sinners to the right standing to receive Holy Communion non-sacreligiously (which is what someone who has grievously sinned does; commit sacrelige.)

If that's true, then doesn't that contradict scripture, particularly where it says that Christ is our mediator of the new covenant? (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 9:15)

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, (1 Timothy 2:5)

15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred which redeems them from the transgressions under the first covenant. (Hebrews 9:15)

All either of those verses say is that the Lord Jesus, true God and true man, is the essential Mediator between God and mankind. Christ is the lynch pin without Whom there'd be no redemption; without His shed Blood there'd still be a "Cherub with a flaming sword" preventing men from being re-admitted to the Paradise.

That you see adominishments in the New Testament to "pray for one another" or to "confess one's sins to one another" should be proof enough that there is an agency through which grace is received, even if it is ultimatly merited and finds it's source in Christ Jesus.

Though Christ Himself is "the Teacher" in His own words, and hyperbolically He taught "call no other man teacher", what did He do after His Ressurection? He told the Apostles to go and "teach all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit". Indeed though it is Christ Who is "THE Lord", are there not other "lords"? Other "kings"?

Just as the efficacy of all earthly authority comes from the fact it relies on and is given by God (Who has all authority of Himself), so too all true Priesthood and Sacramental acts, and even all efficacious prayers, have their source in the Person of Christ as Mediator (being true God, and true man, and paying the debt for Adam's sin.)

patriarch · Apr 21, 2002

Originally posted by Hoonbaba
Thank you Lee I understand it now =)

Actually, as a charismatic it reminds me of the gift of prophecy. The 'prophet' would literally speaks "as one speaking the very words of God" (1 Peter 4:11)

It's not that a prophet is the one literally claiming to be God, but rather he is/was an instrument used by God.

So it seems it's the exact same thing for the priest.

-Jason

It is much the same, and as a matter of fact I read somewhere recently that in the early church one of the qualifications for a priest was that he have the gift of prophecy.

However, there is this difference. One of the sacraments which imprints a seal on the soul of the recipient is the sacrament of Holy Orders (the other two are Baptism and Confirmation). The priest comes away from receiving the sacrament of Holy Orders with his soul changed forever. It has been conformed much more closely to that of Jesus the priest. Men ordained to the priesthood receive new powers that enable them to act in the person of Christ. This is one of the mysteries of the faith, something that is really beyond our grasp.

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