On the clouds?

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vunderbar

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Josh1

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Pericles: You take "soon" and "at hand" literally? How is that? Last time you said anything about this, you told me that they could mean thousands of years in God's language! That doesn't sound very literal to me...please don't make me laugh now!
Well, pericles if you start laughing then you definately won't be the first in this thread, for everytime somebody has looked at your post I'm sure they couldn't have contained theirself.

Vunderbar just brought up a good example. Also in Is. 56:1 it mentions that something is "near to come". But guess what? It don't come till like 900 years later. Your time texts have been proven wrong time and time again. Why do you keep on with these pratts? You can laugh now or cry, just whatever makes you feel better. God Bless.

P.S. pratts=points refuted a thousand times. Just thought you would like to know.
 
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ikester

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vunderbar said:
Thanks, ikester. Have you ever lurked or participated on the carm Bible prophecy discussion board?
http://new.carmforums.org/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=105
I'm glad I came across these forums, too. I was the only dispensationalist at carm and it got a little boring at times.

-Tim

I did check it out and read some of your post...as for here..it may be in the minority..but at least you have some support...in fact...there are a couple of you guys that would make good defense attorney's......
 
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Pacigoth13

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For the person who made a fuss over "with clouds" vs "on clouds"...

2. If a distinction between regarding the preposition used with "clouds" is an issue, then we have a serious problem because in this case Jesus and John and Paul don't agree with each other. In the Mark reference, it is "in clouds". Matthew has it "on clouds". Luke says "in a cloud". Paul agrees with Mark--"in clouds". And you're right, John says "with clouds". Well, I guess that must dissolve the entire idea of getting anything from the "clouds" metaphor since none of them agreed on whether or not to use "en" or "epi" or "para" when writing the Greek manuscripts... oh well.

No, actually, thankfully for us, ALL of the writers are accessing the same known metaphor and making use of it so the prepositional use tells us nothing (this also dissolves trying to take it strict literally). There is a contradiction if we have to choose between someone being on a cloud or in a cloud or with a cloud but there is not if they all refer to the same metaphor and do not tell us anything in a literalistic sense.

Thus, it still stands, "coming on/with/in the cloud(s)" is a first century Jewish metaphor denoting exaltation, not return.
 
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Wills

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cbk said:
Am I to assume that the waters of the Sea did not depart to allow Moses' people to cross and then wash all the Egyptians away? Bizzarre, so it must not have happened.

The sea turned to blood as Moses said. Bizzarre? Must not have happened.

Voice from Heaven? Bizzarre? Must not have happened.

Yes, it sounds bizzarre, but that is not a basis for discrediting the possibility. Funny how you think it is bizzarre with a superman comparison. But, I guess the other bizzarre things Jesus has done did not happened... Like giving the blind back their sight. RAISING THE DEAD. Healing the lame with a mere touch. Walking ON water. Ascending into Heaven. Let me say that if one could do these things, coming on the clouds would NOT be bizzarre.
What would be more frightening would be if Christ returned without any visible fanfare... because people would not be certain .. and the panic would set in because our interpretations of his return would not match reality.

Is it him or not? The Bible says it will be loud though.. but at which stage of his return would it get explosive?

Of course the angels could be invisible but present....
 
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Josh1

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Easy, if you believe in the Bible, then you believe that "every eye" will see him. So there would be no blind at that time. Perhaps when he caomes all eyesight is restored. But wouldn't that be a miracle, something that is kinda of Bizarre? Yes, but is God no capable? We do believe in a supernatural God, right? God Bless.
 
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vunderbar

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armothe: How about the blind? Please clue me in on how their eyes will physically see Christ returning.

That "what about the blind" issue is just a distraction. The text means that the whole world will recognize the event as it takes place. Quite the opposite of what preterism teaches, i.e., that the whole world, including the Christian church, failed to realize that the coming of the Lord happened in 70 A.D., and that "coming of the Lord" isn't an actual coming of the Lord which will be observed by the whole world.

-Tim
 
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armothe

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Josh1 said:
Easy, if you believe in the Bible, then you believe that "every eye" will see him. So there would be no blind at that time. Perhaps when he caomes all eyesight is restored. But wouldn't that be a miracle, something that is kinda of Bizarre? Yes, but is God no capable? We do believe in a supernatural God, right? God Bless.
I haven't ready anything in the Bible that said all eyesight would be restored at the coming of Christ.

I believe in every "eye" as well......but I also understand we are limited in our interpretations.

If we look at the strongs # for "eye" in Revelation 1:7 we see:
ophthalmos {of-thal-mos'}
1) the eye
2) metaph. the eyes of the mind, the faculty of knowing

I would opt for choice #2 - as in:

Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

Mat 20:33 They say unto him, Lord, that our eyes may be opened.

-A
 
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armothe

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vunderbar said:
That "what about the blind" issue is just a distraction. The text means that the whole world will recognize the event as it takes place. Quite the opposite of what preterism teaches, i.e., that the whole world, including the Christian church, failed to realize that the coming of the Lord happened in 70 A.D., and that "coming of the Lord" isn't an actual coming of the Lord which will be observed by the whole world.

-Tim
So you agree that "every eye shall see" is not literally speaking of every physical eye actually seeing.......

-A
 
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vunderbar

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armothe: So you agree that "every eye shall see" is not literally speaking of every physical eye actually seeing.......

Look again at what I said. I am interpreting the passage literally. Critics of literal interpretation who present odd-ball-wooden-literal interpretations of certain passages to refute "literal interpretation" apparently don't really know what "literal interpretation" means.

Here is the passage:

"'Behold, He is coming with the clouds,' and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen." - Revelation 1:7

Does the passage mean that every eyeball in the head of a person living at the time of his coming will observe the Son descending from heaven? No. Does the passage mean that the actual Jews who convicted Christ and put him to death will be resurrected in order to observe his coming? No. Does it mean that all people living at the time of his coming will be members of tribes? No.

The passage does teach, however, that the whole world will recognize the event as it unfolds, that even the Jews, who pierced him, will recognize the event as it unfolds, and that all members of earth will recognize the judgement about to come as a result of his coming. Since the Bible teaches that the earth will recognize this event as it unfolds, than preterism is proven to be a false doctrine.

-Tim
 
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Josh1

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Armothe: I haven't ready anything in the Bible that said all eyesight would be restored at the coming of Christ.

First, yes I agree with vunderbar,kinda. But today with all the technology, I don't see why this cannot happen. If it says "every eye" then they must have sight, right? I'm the kinda person that unless there is a totally, absolute reason not to take it at its most literal interpretaion, I take it literal. I believe that every eye probally will see him. This is at the end of the tribulation, the christians will know that he is coming and there defiantely won't be nobody sleeping. This is after the most horriffic time ever, this is a time that nobody will be loligaggling around but they will be searching. When they see the cosmic disturbances (the signs of his coming) they will be looking!!! I definately would. God Bless.

P.S. I see your point about the acknowledgement of that time, Vunderbar.
 
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parousia70

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Revelation 14:14-20 is the cloud-coming that "every eye would see." This is significant, for St. John is not describing the coming of Christ as some visual spectacular with cumulus clouds in the skies overhead, but as the coming of Yahweh himself, making Christ equal with the Father. Christ's return was to be precisely in the manner and tradition of Yahweh's Old-Testament-era comings. We have countless examples of the Father coming in His great glory during the Old Testamental period (be sure to note the graphic, physical descriptions and explicit "visual" connotations of Yahweh's comings, noticing how the same language is used to describe the Coming of Christ):



[On Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai] Jehovah came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them (Deut 33:2; cf. Neh 9:13-15; Hab 3:3-16)

[On Yahweh's coming to Egypt -- early 700s BC] Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

[On Yahweh's coming during the Maccabean Period] For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because you are turbulent more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my ordinances, neither have done after the ordinances of the nations that are round about you; therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I, even I, am against you; and I will execute judgments in the midst of you before the eyes of the nations. I will do in you that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all your abominations (Ez 5:7-9)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5) Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)

These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others: Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16). The Father entered into judgments with Egypt and Assyria in a spectacular coming in Isaiah 31. Habakkuk's depiction of Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai is nothing less than apocalyptic (Hab 3:3-16). Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20). Importantly, these comings of the Father form the entire backdrop for the doctrine of the "coming" of Christ, for it was in this manner of the Father's glory that Christ said he would come (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34).
 
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Wills

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parousia70 said:
Revelation 14:14-20 is the cloud-coming that "every eye would see." This is significant, for St. John is not describing the coming of Christ as some visual spectacular with cumulus clouds in the skies overhead, but as the coming of Yahweh himself, making Christ equal with the Father. Christ's return was to be precisely in the manner and tradition of Yahweh's Old-Testament-era comings. We have countless examples of the Father coming in His great glory during the Old Testamental period (be sure to note the graphic, physical descriptions and explicit "visual" connotations of Yahweh's comings, noticing how the same language is used to describe the Coming of Christ):


16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34).
Christ will clean up the Planet before the Almighty would be seen.

The Almighty cannot be seen by this corrupt Planet.

That would be too dangerous.
 
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Pericles

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Wills said:
Christ will clean up the Planet before the Almighty would be seen.

The Almighty cannot be seen by this corrupt Planet.

That would be too dangerous.
Wills, where is your evidence to show that Brits and Indians are Jews today? Three weeks and counting now, waiting for your evidence, which you said will come "shortly". Where is it?
 
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Shelayne

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Goodness, are we talking about David Copperfield or GOD??


If it says that He is coming on clouds, with clouds, in clouds, whatever, then THAT is what He will do! And the WHOLE WORLD will see it--their "eyes" will be opened, as in the veil will be lifted.


What a glorious sight that will be! Hallelujah!
 
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adam332

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Coming With Christ

Angels

When Christ arrives, He will bring the angels of heaven with Him.

Mat. 13:41 “The Son of man shall send forth his ANGELS...”

Mat. 13:49 “... at the end of the world: the ANGELS shall come forth...”

Mat. 16:27 “..the Son of man shall come... with his ANGELS...”

Mat. 24:31 “..he shall send his ANGELS...”

Mat. 25:31 “..the Son of man shall come...and all the holy ANGELS with him...”

Mark 8:38 “... shall the Son of man...cometh...with the holy ANGELS.”

Mark 13:27 “...then shall he send his ANGELS...”

Luke 9:26 “... shall the Son of man...shall come...of the holy ANGELS.”

2Thes. 1:7 “... the Lord Jesus shall be revealed...with his mighty ANGELS,”

The Four Corners

The job of the angels will be to gather all His saints from the ends of the earth, AKA the re-gathering of Israel (His people).

Isa. 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and GATHER TOGETHER the dispersed of Judah FROM THE FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH.

Mat. 24:31 And he shall send HIS ANGELS with a great sound of a trumpet, and they SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send HIS ANGELS, and SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Isa. 41:9 THOU WHOM I HAVE TAKEN FROM THE ENDS OF THE EARTH, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away

Luke 13:29 And THEY SHALL COME FROM THE EAST, AND FROM THE WEST, AND FROM THE NORTH, AND FROM THE SOUTH, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.

1Thes. 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS, TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Isa. 45:22 Look unto me, and BE YE SAVED, ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH: for I am God, and there is none else.

Mat. 8:11 And I say unto you, That MANY SHALL COME FROM THE EAST AND THE WEST, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Zec. 8:7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I WILL SAVE MY PEOPLE FROM THE EAST COUNTRY, AND FROM THE WEST COUNTRY;

Psa. 107:3 And GATHERED THEM out of the lands, FROM THE EAST, AND FROM THE WEST, FROM THE NORTH, AND FROM THE SOUTH.

Isa. 43:6
I will say TO THE NORTH, Give up; AND TO THE SOUTH, Keep not back: BRING MY SONS from far, AND MY DAUGHTERS FROM THE ENDS OF THE EARTH;

John 11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should GATHER TOGETHER IN ONE THE CHILDREN OF GOD THAT WERE SCATTERED ABROAD.

Jer. 31:8
Behold, I WILL bring them from the north country, and GATHER THEM FROM THE COASTS OF THE EARTH, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.

Clouds

Notice how it also emphasizes that Christ will come “with” or “in” the clouds.

Rev. 1:7 “Behold, he cometh with CLOUDS...”

1Thes. 4:17 “... with them in the CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air...”

Mat. 24:30 “... they shall see the Son of man coming in the CLOUDS of heaven...”

Mat. 26:64 “...shall ye see the Son of man...coming in the CLOUDS of heaven.”

Mark 13:26 “...shall they see the Son of man coming in the CLOUDS...”

Mark 14:62 “... ye shall see the Son of man...coming in the CLOUDS of heaven.”

Luke 21:27 “...shall they see the Son of man coming in a CLOUD..”

Dan. 7:13 “...the Son of man came with the CLOUDS of heaven...”

What Heavens?

These can’t literally be clouds, because upon Christ’s arrival the Heavens are dissolved.

Jer. 4:23 “THE HEAVENS...[had] NO LIGHT.”

Jer. 4:28 “...THE HEAVENS ABOVE BE BLACK...”

Psa. 68:8 “... THE HEAVENS ALSO DROPPED...”

Isa. 51:6 “...THE HEAVENS SHALL VANISH AWAY LIKE SMOKE...”

2Pet. 3:12 “...THE HEAVENS BEING ON FIRE SHALL BE DISSOLVED...”

2Pet. 3:10 “...THE HEAVENS SHALL PASS AWAY...”

Isa. 34:4 “...THE HEAVENS SHALL BE ROLLED TOGETHER AS A SCROLL...”

Isa. 45:8 “DROP DOWN, YE HEAVENS, FROM ABOVE...”

Job 14:12 “...THE HEAVENS BE NO MORE...”

Chariots and Winds

These clouds are described as Christ’s “chariots”, that come with a “wind“, often referred to as a “whirlwind“.

Psa. 104:3 “...who maketh the CLOUDS HIS CHARIOT: who walketh upon the wings of the WIND:”

Jer. 4:13 “Behold, he shall come up as CLOUDS, and his CHARIOTS shall be as a WHIRLWIND...”

Isa. 66:15 “For, behold, the LORD...with his CHARIOTS like a WHIRLWIND...”

We’ve established that Christ comes with angels and clouds, and that the clouds are chariots.

So what exactly are the chariots??

Psa. 68:17 “The CHARIOTS of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of ANGELS...”

That’s right! These clouds and chariots are His angels!

Below, we see the angels coming again associated with the “winds”.

Mat. 24:31 “..he shall send his ANGELS...and they shall gather together his elect from the four WINDS...”

Mark 13:27 “...then shall he send his ANGELS, and shall gather together his elect from the four WINDS...”

Interestingly, when Elijah was taken to heaven by the Lord, we also see the same event that will take place at the translation of the righteous at Christ’s advent.

2Kings 2:11 “...there appeared a CHARIOT...and Elijah went up by a WHIRLWIND...”

Lightning

When Christ comes, there will be winds from the four corners of heaven, and the world will be darkened from these clouds of His angels, also there will be “lightning” from one end of the Earth to the other.

Psa. 97:4 “His LIGHTNINGS enlightened the world...”

Mat. 24:27 “...LIGHTNING cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”

Luke 17:24 “... LIGHTNING...one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

But, angels have other descriptions, such as having the appearance of “lightning”.

Mat. 28:3 “His countenance was like LIGHTNING...”

Eze. 1:14 “... as the appearance of a flash of LIGHTNING.”

Luke 10:18 “... I beheld Satan as LIGHTNING fall from heaven.”

So, is this literal “lightning”, or is it also symbolic of angels, just like the clouds and chariots? If the heavens are rolled away and there aren’t any literal clouds it would be logical to say that this isn’t literal lightning.

 
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