Is it biblical for a woman to be a rabbi?

GreenEyedLady said:

I was wondering about this.
I have a friend who attends a MJ church but a woman is leading this.
She has just recently been named a Rabbi.
What is everyones take on this from a MJ viewpoint.
Thanks
GEL

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From a scriptural point of view, it is anti-scriptural.

Making dinner and don't have time to really list why but here are a few things to think about.

G-d nor Moshe ever appointed a woman as a priest. ALL priests (leaders of the congregation) were men.

According to Torah there are a minimum of 12 days a month when a woman is cerimoniously unclean and forbidden to touch holy things (and other things like men - because it is the men who handle the holy items like the Torah scroll etc.)

Even the Writings of the Apostles state that man is the head of the woman as Messiah is head of the Body - so if a woman can assume a position where she is head over men, can a man then assume a position where he is head over Messiah??

BS"D

Henaynei said:

From a scriptural point of view, it is anti-scriptural.

Making dinner and don't have time to really list why but here are a few things to think about.

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I think this says it best! Excellent teaching Henaynei!!!

All the best,
R.Cohen

is your friend in St Louis?

the rabbi there is a woman but she has never taught even once without her husband sitting/standing next to her.

This particular case seems biblical to me. Her husband helps her with her studies and participates in every lesson she teaches. He just doesn't feel like a good public speaker but St Louis needs a messianic congregation so she does it with his blessing, his help, and his covering.

Henaynei said:

From a scriptural point of view, it is anti-scriptural.

Making dinner and don't have time to really list why but here are a few things to think about.

G-d nor Moshe ever appointed a woman as a priest. ALL priests (leaders of the congregation) were men.

According to Torah there are a minimum of 12 days a month when a woman is cerimoniously unclean and forbidden to touch holy things (and other things like men - because it is the men who handle the holy items like the Torah scroll etc.)

Even the Writings of the Apostles state that man is the head of the woman as Messiah is head of the Body - so if a woman can assume a position where she is head over men, can a man then assume a position where he is head over Messiah??

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Very well written tactile characters you have there

At the fellowship I attend everyone is involved in reading the Tanakh and B'rit Khadashah as well as Daviadic Dance and share in a meal in the afternoon every Shabbat. And every third and fifth Friday we also have Erev Shabbat. And everyone is invovled in most every aspect of Shabbat which btw includes Erev Shabbat which is part of Shabbat
Every adult shares in reading Torah and the Prophets and then in the B'rit Khadashah the Children also read.

Shalom,

Tag


We need to remember YHWH has used women in the past to straighten out Israel and/or help Israel.

Shalom,

Tag

The original question was "biblically speaking"...
Unfortunately, the "bible" does not define a 'Rabbi'... only the Beit Din or Yeshivah has definitions for 'rabbi'.

but St Louis needs a messianic congregation

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To my knowledge, St. Louis has about 5 MJ congregations... and those are just the ones I know of.

Shalom,
Yafet.

Henaynei said:

From a scriptural point of view, it is anti-scriptural.

Making dinner and don't have time to really list why but here are a few things to think about.

G-d nor Moshe ever appointed a woman as a priest. ALL priests (leaders of the congregation) were men.

According to Torah there are a minimum of 12 days a month when a woman is cerimoniously unclean and forbidden to touch holy things (and other things like men - because it is the men who handle the holy items like the Torah scroll etc.)

Even the Writings of the Apostles state that man is the head of the woman as Messiah is head of the Body - so if a woman can assume a position where she is head over men, can a man then assume a position where he is head over Messiah??

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Shalom

Very good point indeed!

Thank you!

Daron

Jonesboro Ar. needs a MJ cong... i would have to drive 2-5 hrs to find a MJ cong.. sad isnt it.

simchat_torah said:

The original question was "biblically speaking"...
Unfortunately, the "bible" does not define a 'Rabbi'... only the Beit Din or Yeshivah has definitions for 'rabbi'.

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To my knowledge, St. Louis has about 5 MJ congregations... and those are just the ones I know of.

Shalom,
Yafet.

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I don't live in St Louis so I can only go on what I've heard...and I don't want to pass rumors so let's deal with this as a "hypothetical"


1 Timothy 3 is the only place where it deals with a woman teaching in a congregation. I find it interesting that Shaul doesn't say that the Lord has given this command. Paul says "I" do not permit...and then goes down a list of things




In my opinion this was a cultural thing because their social structure was much different in those days....and women were not educated at all.

If we are going to be completely literal about this, then what is the limit of money a woman can spend before she is wearing "expensive clothes"? Can a woman wear a golden wedding ring? Do we rid the congregation of women who teach in Shabbat classes? Can men be in a dance class taught by a woman?
According to the preceding verses of this same passage; Do we also avoid congregations if some of the men don't lift up holy hands....or have disputes?

I do believe that the case can be made that a woman should not be in authority over men spiritually....but I think that most of us had women teachers in our lives who served us well.

So if a woman is a gifted teacher and ALSO under the authority of her husband would that be different?

Henaynei said:

Even the Writings of the Apostles state that man is the head of the woman as Messiah is head of the Body - so if a woman can assume a position where she is head over men, can a man then assume a position where he is head over Messiah??

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Well, if this is true then a mother could never teach her boy child anything... because he's a man and she's a woman--and i really don't think this is the case. However, the bible does say a woman can't teach her husband--which to me sounds more like a whole lot of responsibility to him than any inferiority to her. A husband is the priest of his family and as such he must know everything about the bible and lead his family on the path of righteousness.

The fact that no woman was ever appointed priest or whatever doesn't mean she can't lead a congregation or be a Rabi for that sake. Doesn't God decide what and who's clean or unclean? In the new testament it was God Himself who said it was okay for a Jew to eat unclean food. Since Christ's death at the cross some things have changed, the law isn't absolute anymore... eventhough it's still the best thing to try and keep it as much as possible.

Since Christ i think the issue of clean and unclean has shifted more towards the attitude of your heart. Are you growing spiritually in your relationship with your heavenly Father, do you think clean thoughts, are the words from your mouth clean, are you forgiving instead of vindictive, are you willing to follow Christ and give your life for His name sake or to save the life of someone else?

Why aren't women just robots if they can only fulfull dumb tasks in and around the house without any say?! Man and woman are equal, especially outside of mariage. Within a marriage it's the man who's responsible for things, and he's the one who God appointed as the ultimate in charge for every decission. Christ gave an example on how to be a good leader, He washed the feet of His diciples! Another thing is love, a man should love his wife... and i really do think the bible is talking about agape-love here rather than eros-love. The Godly love i'm talking about here is the kind of love which doesn't care about his own ego, but instead wants to take into account the wishes of the one he loves--because he wishes nothing but the best for her! (Just like God loves us.)

P.S. Did anyone know that a man becomes unclean after intercourse? You might want to give Leviticus a good read


, Jeroen

Dear brothers and sisters,



Scripture says plainly what scripture says. G-d is neither so time myopic nor culturally bound that what He said, or inspired to be said, 2-5000 years ago does not apply today or must qualified to be relevant.



Misconstruing scripture is very risky business. A son is not necessarily a man. Women with the gift of teaching have an exalted calling from G-d, they have the great and sacrificial task of teaching and training the next generation who will carry the Truth and Faith into the future and teaching and encouraging those intrusted with the task getting them there. This is not some menial task – and neither does G-d think it so. Go back and read the books of the Chronicles and Kings. G-d rarely mentions parents of the various kings, but when He does it is almost always the mother that is mentioned! Thought provoking....



In the 2-5000 years of Jewish history HaShem has seen fit to call only one woman to an office of such leadership – and that as a Judge of Israel. Once in 5000 years hardly sets a precedent.



Efforts to soften or modify or re-write the clear teaching and G-d given roles of HaShem in a misguided attempt to bring political correctness to the congregation are what have lead to the abomination of women and homosexuals becoming Priests, Ministers and Rabbis.



I may be very different from the rest of the women here but I must confess having feelings of intense offense when reading:

Why aren't women just robots if they can only fulfill dumb tasks in and around the house without any say?!

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When was the last time YOU tried to fulfill the “dumb tasks” of running a household and insuring the teaching, coordination, transportation, feeding, cleanliness, health and safety of its members 24/7/365/20+????? Is this what you think of your mother and grandmothers – a robot doing dumb trasks??



BTW – women are not prevented from discussion or even presenting their opinions as even G-d knows the futility of trying to stop a force of nature!! (LOL) And the relationship within a marriage was not the topic of the original question.



The question was, is it scriptural for a woman to be a Rabbi (and by definition, in a position to lead, teach and consul congregations – by extrapolation, men). Scripturally the answer is no.



Look to the gentile congregations and to society at large – men rarely force their way into a take over of a position where a woman has staked a claim, whether it is in the family with discipline or finances or in the corporate world, or in the church where the vast majority of the members of churches (taken as a whole and not differentiating the various denominations) are woman.

P.S. Did anyone know that a man becomes unclean after intercourse? You might want to give Leviticus a good read.

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Actually, many more of us than you seem to think know that and a whole lot more about the mitzvah of Taharat HaMishpokha. But, again, whether or not men become ceremonially unclean after intercourse was not germain to the original question. An orthodox congregation fully knows what is required to deal with all the commandments (mitzvoth) of the Family Purity Laws (Taharat HaMishpokha) and, again, is non-sequitur to the original question as originally stated.

Shalom b'Yeshua

I agree with what the woman said

I meant the above for Henaynei, for I agree with what she wrote.
And about the statement "Why aren't women just robots if they can only fulfill dumb tasks in and around the house without any say?!"
I reckon you have forgotten about Proverbs 31.
If a woman serving her family is dumb
then
I reckon saying 'a woman's family obligations(blessings) is dumb'
is dumberer

Shalom,

Tag

When was the last time YOU tried to fulfill the “dumb tasks” of running a household and insuring the teaching, coordination, transportation, feeding, cleanliness, health and safety of its members 24/7/365/20+????? Is this what you think of your mother and grandmothers – a robot doing dumb trasks??

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Somehow i get the feeling you didn't quite get the message i was trying to get across Please don't hate me for it--English isn't my nativing language and the way i expressed myself back there is the best i can do. I never said anything degrading about housekeeping on my own account, however i did say something about how the thread-starter to me appears to perceive women/wives: as dumb housekeepers who should just keep quiet and take orders on account of that a woman can't teach her husband or men in general.

And about the statement "Why aren't women just robots if they can only fulfill dumb tasks in and around the house without any say?!"
I reckon you have forgotten about Proverbs 31.
If a woman serving her family is dumb
then
I reckon saying 'a woman's family obligations(blessings) is dumb'
is dumberer

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First off: this sentence is clearly a question, not a remark. I'm trying to make a point here about how people look at women: are they to be treated as dumb housekeepers without any say, or did God give them a brain to be used? I think the latter, which is what i've been trying to say in my previous post.

I'm sorry, it wasn't my intension to insinuate housekeeping is dumb work or women are incapable of doing anything. However, i really don't understand how anyone could have distilled that message from my post? Didn't anyone notice the question-mark, like the one behind this sentence?! The following to me sounds like a question rather than a remark: ``Why aren't women just robots if they can only fulfill dumb tasks in and around the house without any say?!''

Maybe i should have phrased this a little differently, like: ``Why didn't God create women to be just mindless robots if their only purpose was to fulfill dumb tasks in and around the house without any say?!''

NB: ``dumb'' should be interpreted in context of: ``without being allowed to think for herself''
NB: ``without any say'' should be interpreted in context of: ``a master-slave relationship between husband and wife''


Just to be clear: i agree that it's a blessing unto a family to have a wive/mother who's able to keep a household up and running, however i don't think a woman was blessed with a good brain just for housekeeping--husband and wife are partners, and a husband being in charge would be wise to recognize this fact and take his wives good advice into account.

I hope i've been able to clarify the actual line of thought in my previous post.




, Jeroen