Perpetual- What does it mean?

JeffreyLloyd · Nov 20, 2003

I gotta give it to ya however, great debate tactic, Daron

Daron · Nov 20, 2003

JeffreyLloyd said:
Isaiah 1:13 - God begins to reveal His displeasure with the Sabbath.

Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:2,9; John 20:1,19- the Gospel writers purposely reveal Jesus' resurrection and appearances were on Sunday. This is because Sunday had now become the most important day in the life of the Church.

Acts 20:7 - this texts shows the apostolic tradition of gathering together to celebrate the Eucharist on Sunday, the "first day of the week." Luke documents the principle worship was on Sunday because this was one of the departures from the Jewish form of worship.

1 Cor. 16:2 - Paul instructs the Corinthians to make contributions to the churches "on the first day of the week," which is Sunday. This is because the primary day of Christian worship is Sunday.

Col. 2:16-17 - Paul teaches that the Sabbath was only a shadow of what was fulfilled in Christ, and says "let no one pass judgment any more over a Sabbath."

2 Thess. 2:15 - we are to hold fast to apostolic tradition, whether it is oral or written. The 2,000 year-old tradition of the Church is that the apostles changed the Sabbath day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.

Heb. 4:8-9 - regarding the day of rest, if Joshua had given rest, God would not later speak of "another day," which is Sunday, the new Sabbath. Sunday is the first day of the week and the first day of the new creation brought about by our Lord's resurrection, which was on Sunday.

Heb. 7:12 - when there is a change in the priesthood, there is a change in the law as well. Because we have a new Priest and a new sacrifice, we also have a new day of worship, which is Sunday.

Rev 1:10 - John specifically points out that he witnesses the heavenly Eucharistic liturgy on Sunday, the Lord's day, the new day of rest in Christ.

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - whatever the Church binds on earth is bound in heaven. Since the resurrection, Mass has been principally celebrated on Sunday.

Also, Catholic Churches have mass on Saturday and Sunday.

As Catholics we do believe St. Peter is the first pope and the head of the Catholic Church. It was under the leadership of the church the day was moved to Sunday which the church has the authoirty to do.

Would you please answer my questions with an answer that applied to what I asked? Otherwise why even quote me?

One other question: Do you understand what perpetual means?

Thank you!

JeffreyLloyd · Nov 20, 2003

I did answer it. Scripture supports Sunday Worship as well as Sacred Tradition.

We believe the authority rests with Christ's Church. They say we worship on Sunday... we worship on Sunday.

Daron · Nov 20, 2003

JeffreyLloyd said:
I gotta give it to ya however, great debate tactic, Daron

Coming from you, thank you!

It's best to get people to agree (with facts that are true) before you ask them questions. But the hard thing is getting an answer that applies to what is asked. For if they truly answer the question asked, they then would disprove their own belief. So to avoid this, they skirt around the questions and just simply reply or ignore it completly.

The readers (those who really seek truth) can see who has sound doctrine and who does not. But some don't care because of traditions.

Anyway, thank you!

Daron

Daron · Nov 20, 2003

JeffreyLloyd said:
I did answer it. Scripture supports Sunday Worship as well as Sacred Tradition.

We believe the authority rests with Christ's Church. They say we worship on Sunday... we worship on Sunday.

Please put your answer under each of my questions so we can see how your answer applies to the questions I asked. I am sure you have done this many other times.

Thank you!

Daron

Daron · Nov 20, 2003

JeffreyLloyd said:
Isaiah 1:13 - God begins to reveal His displeasure with the Sabbath.

<<<Yahuah was displeased with their appointed feasts. They turned and became pagans and sinners and had theire own Sababths.

Isa 1:10 Hear the word of Yahuah, You rulers of Sodom; Give ear to the law of our Elohim, You people of Gomorrah:

Isa 1:14 Your New Moons and your appointed feasts My soul hates;
They are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them.

But these were not the Sabbaths of Yahuah!

Ex 31:13 "Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: 'Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am Yahuah who sanctifies you.>>>>

Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:2,9; John 20:1,19- the Gospel writers purposely reveal Jesus' resurrection and appearances were on Sunday. This is because Sunday had now become the most important day in the life of the Church.

<<<Yahshuah's appearance was on the first day of the week, but it doesn not mean he was raised on that day.>>>>

Acts 20:7 - this texts shows the apostolic tradition of gathering together to celebrate the Eucharist on Sunday, the "first day of the week." Luke documents the principle worship was on Sunday because this was one of the departures from the Jewish form of worship.

<<<<How does that prove that they did not keep the sabbath the day before? How does it prove they did not keep the Sabbath of "Days of Unleavened Bread" before then?

Acts 20:5-6 But we sailed away from Philippi after the Days of Unleavened Bread, and in five days joined them at Troas, where we stayed seven days.
NKJV>>>>

1 Cor. 16:2 - Paul instructs the Corinthians to make contributions to the churches "on the first day of the week," which is Sunday. This is because the primary day of Christian worship is Sunday.

<<< 1 Cor 16:2 On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come.

Each of them were commanded to save, lay aside, set a side, save money on the first day of the week. Nothing said about coming together on the 1st day of the week. Just set aside money on that day.>>>>

Col. 2:16-17 - Paul teaches that the Sabbath was only a shadow of what was fulfilled in Christ, and says "let no one pass judgment any more over a Sabbath."

<<<<That does not mean not to observer the Sabbath anymore, for it is a perpetual covenant.>>>>

2 Thess. 2:15 - we are to hold fast to apostolic tradition, whether it is oral or written. The 2,000 year-old tradition of the Church is that the apostles changed the Sabbath day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.

<<<<The Apostles could not change the perpetual Covenant given by Yahuah. NOT possible, nor is there a teaching any where, where they changed it. Just because they broke bread on the first day of the week, does not mean they did not observe the Sabbath anymore.>>>>

Heb. 4:8-9 - regarding the day of rest, if Joshua had given rest, God would not later speak of "another day," which is Sunday, the new Sabbath. Sunday is the first day of the week and the first day of the new creation brought about by our Lord's resurrection, which was on Sunday.

<<<<The rest you speak of is not the seventh day Sabbath. The rest you speak of is yet to come, for we have to be diligent to enter that rest.

Heb 4:8-11 There remains therefore a rest for the people of Elohim. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as Elohim did from His.

11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

We have to be diligent to enter that rest.>>>>

Heb. 7:12 - when there is a change in the priesthood, there is a change in the law as well. Because we have a new Priest and a new sacrifice, we also have a new day of worship, which is Sunday.

<<< The change of the Law you speak of was just a transferral of the Law from the old earthly priesthood to the heavenly priesthood.

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.

NT:3331 (Changed) metathesis (met-ath'-es-is); from NT:3346; transposition, i.e. transferral (to heaven), disestablishment (of a law):

Moving the laws of the preisthood to the heavens has nothing to do with the Sabbath, nor does it do away with the Perpetual covenant of the Sabbath.>>>>

Rev 1:10 - John specifically points out that he witnesses the heavenly Eucharistic liturgy on Sunday, the Lord's day, the new day of rest in Christ.

<<<<Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,

Please point out this Eucharistic liturgy in Rev 1:10 ore anywhere!>>>>

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - whatever the Church binds on earth is bound in heaven. Since the resurrection, Mass has been principally celebrated on Sunday.

Also, Catholic Churches have mass on Saturday and Sunday.

<<<<There is no record that the apostles removed the perpetual covenant of the seventh day sabbath to bind in Sunday. Not there!!>>>>

As Catholics we do believe St. Peter is the first pope and the head of the Catholic Church. It was under the leadership of the church the day was moved to Sunday which the church has the authoirty to do.

<<<<Still no record, but Peter was of the children of Yisreal, and he observed the perpetual Sabbath just as Yahshuah did.>>>>

Thanks!
Daron

armothe · Nov 21, 2003

Daron said:
There was a perpetual covenant given, "The Seventh Day Sabbath," but it is said to have vanished away and another day, "The First Day" is observed. But how can this be true? Yahuah said the seventh day Sabbath was forever.

Ex 31:16-17 Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days Yahuah made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.' "

Indeed this covenant was "forever" but forever to whom? With Israel and the children of Israel. I'd contend that not a single Jew in this day and age can claim they are of true Israelite lineage.

Thus, the covenant no longer applies. Mosaic Law and any covenants God had with the Israelites 3,500 years ago cannot be applied - because true Israel no longer exists.

-A

Daron · Nov 21, 2003

armothe said:
Indeed this covenant was "forever" but forever to whom? With Israel and the children of Israel. I'd contend that not a single Jew in this day and age can claim they are of true Israelite lineage.

Thus, the covenant no longer applies. Mosaic Law and any covenants God had with the Israelites 3,500 years ago cannot be applied - because true Israel no longer exists.

-A

Hi

Jer 31:7-8 For thus says Yahuah: "Sing with gladness for Jacob,And shout among the chief of the nations;Proclaim, give praise, and say,'O Yahuah, save Your people,The remnant of Israel!' 8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country,And gather them from the ends of the earth,Among them the blind and the lame,The woman with child And the one who labors with child, together;A great throng shall return there.

Ezek 37:21 Then say to them, 'Thus says Yahuah Elohim: "Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land;

Ezek 20:41-42 I will accept you as a sweet aroma when I bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you have been scattered; and I will be hallowed in you before the Gentiles. 42 Then you shall know that I am Yahuah, when I bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for which I lifted My hand in an oath to give to your fathers.

Yahuah does not agree with you!

Daron · Nov 21, 2003

armothe said:
Thus, the covenant no longer applies. Mosaic Law and any covenants God had with the Israelites 3,500 years ago cannot be applied - because true Israel no longer exists.

-A

Again, Yahuah does not agree with you!

It is clear that Yahuah told His people that a time would come and He would scatter them among the nations, because they did not observe His Laws.

Deut 30:1 Now it shall come to pass, when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where Yahuah your Elohim drives you,

It its clear that when they return they would again obey His voice, according to all that He command them that day, which was Torah. (The Torah can be found in the Old Covenant.)

Deut 30:2-3 and you return to Yahuah your Elohim and obey His voice, according to all that I command you today, you and your children, with all your heart and with all your soul, that Yahuah your Elohim will bring you back from captivity, and have compassion on you, and gather you again from all the nations where Yahuah your Elohim has scattered you.

Deut 30:3-8 If any of you are driven out to the farthest parts under heaven, from there Yahuah your Elohim will gather you, and from there He will bring you. 5 Then Yahuah your Elohim will bring you to the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it. He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers. 6 And Yahuah your Elohim will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love Yahuah your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live. 7 Also Yahuah your Elohim will put all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. 8 And you will again obey the voice of Yahuah and do all His commandments which I command you today.

Just as Yahuah made it clear again in verse eight, "you will again obey the voice of Yahuah and do all His commandments which I command you today.".... It should be made clear again why Messianics keep Torah in the faith of Yahshuah .

The return of the lost sheep to Torah and Elohim began with Yahshuah,

Matt 15:24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Yisrael."

Another point, is that the teachings of Rom 10:1-10 is the fulfillment of Deut 30:1-14. When they return and through the prophesy of Rom 10:6-10 they will again obey the voice of Yahuah and do all His commandments which He command that day. In other words the same laws that existed then but were rejected, will still be waiting for them when they return. This is where the prophesy of Deut 30:1-14 is fulfilled.

Rom 10:6-10 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' " (That is, to bring Mashiach down from above) or, " 'Who will descend into the abyss?' " (That is, to bring Mashiach up from the dead). But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth Yahshuah and believe in your heart that Elohim has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Now to the rest of the prophecy and please note that the prophecy of Rom 10:6-10 is the same as the prophecy of Deut 30:9-14 and that the entire 30th chapter Deuteronomy pertains to the House of Yisrael, for which the prophecy of Rom 10:6-10 applies to!

Deut 30:9-14 If you obey the voice of Yahuah your Elohim, to keep His commandments and His statutes, which are written in this Book of the Law, and if you turn to Yahuah your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul. "For this commandment which I command you today, it is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.

As we see, the teaching of Rom 10:6-10 is the prophetic fulfillment of Deut 30:1-14, and when rightly divided, we can clearly see the teaching of the scripture shows and proves that Yisrael is to observe Torah when they return to Yahuah. This is a second chance for the lost sheep of the House of Yisrael to repent and have forgiveness for their sins so they can return to Yahuah and His Mitzvot.

This is why the Messianics observe Torah in the faith of Yahshuah. After all, this is the context of Paul's teaching in the first few verses of Romans chapter 10.

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to Elohim for Yisrael is that they may be saved.

What does it mean to return to Yahuah?

It means to return to Yahuah and His Torah in the faith of Yahshuah, after all the return of the lost sheep to Yahuah and His Law is in the Law !

Daron

armothe · Nov 21, 2003

Daron said:
Yahuah does not agree with you!

Do you know who Ezekiel was? Do you know when he prophesied?

Ezekiel lived ruing the Babylonia seige, capture, and exile of Judah.

He prophesied that they were to be punished (by the Babylonians) for straying from God. Later in his writings he brought hope to those in exile by promising that their remnant would return back to Jerusalem.

Guess what! In 538 BC the remnant of the Jews were allowed to return back to Jerusalem!

Prophecy, fulfilled.

-A

Symes · Nov 21, 2003

As Catholics we do believe St. Peter is the first pope and the head of the Catholic Church. It was under the leadership of the church the day was moved to Sunday which the church has the authoirty to do.

(Originally Posted by: JeffreyLloyd)

Can you tell me by what authority they have been able to do this?

You may say it was Peter that gave it to you but show me from the Bible or tradition where it says that Peter or Christ authorised the change?

Daron · Nov 21, 2003

armothe said:
Do you know who Ezekiel was? Do you know when he prophesied?

Ezekiel lived ruing the Babylonia seige, capture, and exile of Judah.

He prophesied that they were to be punished (by the Babylonians) for straying from God. Later in his writings he brought hope to those in exile by promising that their remnant would return back to Jerusalem.

Guess what! In 538 BC the remnant of the Jews were allowed to return back to Jerusalem!

Prophecy, fulfilled.

-A

Ezek 37:21 Then say to them, 'Thus says Yahuah Elohim: "Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land;

Ezek 37:21 Then say to them, 'Thus says Yahuah Elohim: "Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land;

Ezek 11:17 "Therefore say, 'Thus says Yahuah Elohim: "I will gather you from the peoples, assemble you from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel." '

Daron · Nov 24, 2003

Isa 66:22-23 "For as the new heavens and the new earth Which I will make shall remain before Me," says Yahuah, "So shall your descendants and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass That from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me," says Yahuah.

As you see, Yahuah knows what perpetual means.

Daron

Daron · Nov 24, 2003

If Yahuah knows what perpetual means and proves it by His own prophecy about the age to come, what does that say about the belief of the seventh day Sabbath was done away with and the first day established?

Daron

thereselittleflower · Nov 25, 2003

Symes said:
(Originally Posted by: JeffreyLloyd)

Can you tell me by what authority they have been able to do this?

You may say it was Peter that gave it to you but show me from the Bible or tradition where it says that Peter or Christ authorised the change?

Symes

Jeffry didn't say that Peter himself authorized this "change", but the Church did. The authoirity of Peter and the apostles passed on to those who followed in their stead to lead the Church . .

Peace in Him!

thereselittleflower · Nov 25, 2003

Ex 31:13 "Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: 'Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am Yahuah who sanctifies you.>>>>

Daron

This is exactly what the Sabbath is . a sign between God and the Israel . . not between God and the gentiles . . It is part of the Old Covenant, not part of the New . .

Are you suggesting that I as a gentile am bound by the Sabbath sign of the Old Covenant?

Peace in Him!

Daron · Nov 25, 2003

Hello,

thereselittleflower said:
[/i]

Daron

This is exactly what the Sabbath is . a sign between God and the Israel . . not between God and the gentiles . . It is part of the Old Covenant, not part of the New . .

Peace in Him!

Then you must also believe and teach the New Covenant is for the house of Yisrael and not for the Gentiles.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says Yahuah: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their Elohim, and they shall be My people.

Please post a scripture that says,

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of the Gentiles after those days, says Yahuah: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their Elohim, and they shall be My people.

thereselittleflower said:
[/i]

Are you suggesting that I as a gentile am bound by the Sabbath sign of the Old Covenant?

Peace in Him!

Oh, you have not been grafted in? Is this correct?

Rom 11:12 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
NKJV

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,

Daron

thereselittleflower · Nov 25, 2003

Daron said:
Then you must also believe and teach the New Covenant is for the house of Yisrael and not for the Gentiles.

Quite to the contrary . I believe the New Convenant is for everyone. So you are incorrect in your assumption.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says Yahuah: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their Elohim, and they shall be My people.

Let's look at that verse in context:

Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

Heb 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Heb 8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Of course, this is the letter written to the Hebrew's so it is focused on them and their relationship with God, not on the gentiles relationship with God . .

The convenant you speak of above is not anywhere here said to be exclusive to the Israelites . . .

Oh, you have not been grafted in? Is this correct?

Rom 11:12 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
NKJV

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,

Daron

We are not grafted into Israel . .we are grafted into Christ who is the root . . and we become partakers of Christ - of the root and the fatness of the olive tree . .

Yes, I am grafted in, but not into or by the Old Covenant.

Peace in Him!

Daron · Nov 25, 2003

thereselittleflower said:
[/i]

Daron

This is exactly what the Sabbath is . a sign between God and the Israel . . not between God and the gentiles . . It is part of the Old Covenant, not part of the New . .

Peace in Him!

Was Mary (Mother of God?) and Peter (first pope?) of the House of Yisrael?

If so, they also observed the perpetual covenant, Correct?

Daron

thereselittleflower · Nov 25, 2003

Daron said:
Was Mary (Mother of God?) and Peter (first pope?) of the House of Yisrael?

If so, they also observed the perpetual covenant, Correct?

Daron

As Jews under the Old Convenant . . Are you suggesting they remained under the Old Convenant after Jesus had established the New Convenant? Or that they were bound to the Old Covenant after Jesus established the New?

Peace in Him!

Perpetual- What does it mean?

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