Inverted Crosses..

Originally posted by lambslove


What an incredibly lame explanation.

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That part might have been a little lame...true. But what about the rest of it?

Does no-one have anything to say regarding Peter's death on an inverted cross? Or the fact that Peter requested that the cross be turned upside down, because he thought he was not worthy to suffer the exact same death as our Lord?

I'm thinking of Christmas and Easter and very rich irony.

Originally Posted by Christi

Yes, Tinker, and I am especially asking this question of Dave because it seems to contradict some of his past attitudes towards much smaller issues. And by the way, the fact that Jesus befriended sinners and prostitutes is one of the things I love about Him most.

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Yes. I was knee-jerking to what seemed like a knee-jerk question, forgetting that many of you folks are more active and know each other quite well. Perhaps, Dave will enlighten. Lately, the idea of trying to emulate Christ in this area is quite important to how I am trying to formulate my ideas about church ministry.

Originally Posted by soulsisterclaire

There is a HUGE difference between being friends with a sinner, such as a prostitute, and being friends with someone that WORSHIPS Satan.

I would say that it is not a good idea to be friends with Satanists.

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I am not sure there is a difference. They need Jesus as much as a prostitute. If one Christian with whom a satanist is in regular contact is not a jerk, not a person who thumbs his/her nose, loves them in spite of who they profess to be, then maybe when the Holy Spirt, who is not willing that any should perish, woos them, perhaps they will respond.

If, OTOH, every Christian fails to love as Jesus did, then perhaps the satanist will reject the call even if sorely convicted. It is true that each person is responsible for their own decisions, but we should not be the stumbling blocks.

Tinker

Tinker Grey, I understand where you are coming from. I struggled with the thought of asking people struggling with sin to leave the church in another post. However, when I hear "Satanist" I think of someone with an indwelling of Satan, much the same way when I hear Christian I think of someone with an indwelling of Christ. See, I don't just think "sinner", I don't think someone of another faith....I think EVIL. I am concerned if we should not be unequally yoked with unbelievers, how much more so should we not be yoked with Satan. However, I also agree with you about these people need Jesus THE MOST. And we are to be "salt and light." It is a confusing subject for me, just how tolerant should we be, where do we draw the line, where do we put our arms around someone, and when do we "be seperate?"

There is actually no historic evidence that Peter died on an inverted cross. Although Roman records indicated that he was crucified, they don't mention inverting the cross. It's legend and nothing more.

Furthermore, I am astonished and offended that anyone who calls himself or herself a Christian would be trying so hard to get us to adopt and embrace a well-known symbol of satan, like the inverted cross!

There is actually no historic evidence that Peter died on an inverted cross. Although Roman records indicated that he was crucified, they don't mention inverting the cross. It's legend and nothing more.

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Two things here: one, even if it is a legend, the inverted cross of Peter is based on the legend that he was crucified upside-down, and not out of honor to Satan or any such other nonsense; and two, the 1st-century corpse that was disinterred from under St. Peter's Basilica in Rome that is believed to be that of Peter is missing the feet from the ankles down; this would fit in with the Roman practice of simply hacking the feet off the deceased victim to get it off the cross beam, rather than actually taking time to remove the body by pulling the spikes. Arms were tied to the horizontal beam as often as they were nailed, so there may have been no reason to hack off the hands.

Furthermore, I am astonished and offended that anyone who calls himself or herself a Christian would be trying so hard to get us to adopt and embrace a well-known symbol of satan, like the inverted cross!

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My question here would be, upon what evidence are you basing your assertion that the inverted cross is a Satanic symbol? Who said this, and where? Who told you this, or where did you read it? What are they basing their claim upon? Can you give me a reference than I can corroborate? If not, then the idea that an inverted cross is a Satanic symbol is just as much a legend as you assert that Peter's upside-down crucifixion is.

Christi,

Thank you for your comments. I agree that it is difficult. Since I have never met someone quite so diametrically opposed to myself as to be a Satanist, I am not sure how I would react. I think we agree that being "salt and light" is both required and not easy.

A baptist pastor, who had exchanged pulpits for one sunday with my pastor, said in his sermon that the Bible never commanded that we isolate ourselves from the people of this world. OTOH, the Bible does say to isolate ourselves from Christians who teach false doctrine (he provided references).

I think sometimes the confusion comes in the meaning of the word "friend". I don't think we set ourselves up for marriage of someone that different from our core. That would be, as you said, "being unequally yoked." But can I sit down at McD's have a burger & coke and listen to his troubles? You betcha. Should I worry that someone from church might see me? Nope (tho' I might).

So WRT Dave, I guess it depends on what he means by friends. Unfortunately for the purposes of communication, the word "acquaintance" has fallen into disuse.

The other mitigating factor with Satanists for me is that I don't see them as EVIL so much. Rather, because I am old enough to remember the seventies and the spate of bands that were "satanist". I look at the vast majority of satanism as a sham. I think the teens that claim to be satanist are looking for shock value just as a goth or punk might. In that sense, I tend to view satanists as merely troubled. I am sure that that is not always the case.

lambslove,

I am shocked and offended that you are shocked and offended! Ok, maybe not. But as one who's screen name reflects the love of God, perhaps you should put a little more effort into understanding the people defending the inverted cross.

Whether there is historical evidence the Peter died on an inverted cross, the tradition is probably ~1700 yrs old. It is certainly older than the tradition that the inverted cross is a symbol of Satan.

Partly, we should remember that a symbol is a symbol because we ourselves invest it with meaning. There is no inherent meaning in any symbol, nor, therefore in an inverted cross. Consider it like Paul eating meat offerred to idols. It is ok to do so if it doesn't cause your brother to stumble. (Romans 14:20).

So perhaps we can understand the psychology of a christian in the Heavy Metal industry (or just a fan, I didn't check out the website) defending inverted crosses. For one, he likes the music. For two, there is some evidence for his claims. For three, just like other Christians who find something interesting and simply must share ("did you know that Easter is a pagan holiday?!??!!?! EEEEEEK!"), he sharing and investing effort in that discovery.

If he/she is into heavy metal, than perhaps he likes shocking the established point of view. And challenging people's notions of the inverted cross apparently does that.

If we wish to put any effort in to faulting him, it could be based on Romans 14:20. That is, perhaps he is not as concerned with "causing his brother to stumble" as he should be.

God bless,

Tinker

Tinker Grey, Thanks for raising some thought-provoking issues about the "people" aspect of this. Maybe it's one of those things that you have to take on a case-by-case basis, like the teenagers. Perhaps the Holy Spirit within us would warn us when they is truly a situation we need to remove ourselves from. I did a search on inverted crosses to find out about the origin, and I found myself in several satanic websites. Some of them were pretty hokey, but some of them really creeped me out and I had to back click FAST. So maybe it will be like that with people? Maybe we will have discernment if we find ourselves in that situation? I don't really run in circles where I would meet any satanist's, though, so maybe I won't have to worry about it. Thanks for your thoughts, though.

Christi,

Thank you as well. Amen, especially on discernment and "case-by-case".

Go with God.

Tinker

Originally posted by lambslove
There is actually no historic evidence that Peter died on an inverted cross. Although Roman records indicated that he was crucified, they don't mention inverting the cross. It's legend and nothing more.

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Concerning the manner of Peter's death, we possess a tradition--attested to by Tertullian at the end of the second century (see above) and by Origen (in Eusebius, "Hist. Eccl.", II, i)--that he suffered crucifixion. Origen says: "Peter was crucified at Rome with his head downwards, as he himself had desired to suffer".

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Link: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11744a.htm#IV

I place my vote with Wolseley, in that perhaps it IS a legend, but the story had to come from somewhere. Of course, the plethora of "urban legends" that fill my email box can testify to the strength of a rumor!

The upright cross is practically a universal symbol of Christianity. I would think anyone wearing an inverted cross would be swamped with cute remarks: "Hey, fella, you need to stand on your head!" "Whoa, did you know your pin is upside down?" "Hey, you from Australia or something?"

If you get your jollies from explaining the same story over and over and over and OVER again, who am I to judge you? Knock yourself out! For me, I'll stay with the upright cross that tells everyone, "Hey, I'm a Christian," instead of creating confusion at the get-go, by saying, "Hey, I might be dyslexic!"


Peace be with you,
~VOW

The upright cross is practically a universal symbol of Christianity. I would think anyone wearing an inverted cross would be swamped with cute remarks: "Hey, fella, you need to stand on your head!" "Whoa, did you know your pin is upside down?" "Hey, you from Australia or something?"

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Where I come from, if you wore an inverted cross, people would run from you like the plague. They'd think you were a devil-worshipper, and never give you a chance to explain about persecution or Peter.

At best, it's a mixed message. At worse, it's trying to make the people of God embrace a symbol of satan.

Lambslove, when I did a search on "inverted cross" every single result was to a satanic site, except for two articles explaining why the Pope was sitting in front of an inverted cross. I have never known it to be anything BUT a symbol for satanism, although I have always heard that Peter was crucified upside down. You won't catch me in one, that's for sure! I've been causing enough stumbling blocks with the cigarette problem! lol!