Possible sign of evolution?

Sphere

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Everyone has heard of wisdom teeth, granted they serve no purpose, at least i've never read or have been told they serve a purpose. The average human jaw isnt large enough to accomadate(sp?) the wisdom teeth. Now, why is this?

Couldn't this be because perhaps its an evolutionary change that humans are going through right now because our eating habits have changed over thousands of years? Scientists know that nehanderthals(sp?) needed all their teeth for eating rough raw foods. Its also a fact that in the last 300 years, the average american has gotten taller.

Discuss! Oh, and Its my pleasure to tell everyone that i'll be fortunate enough to have my wisdom teeth removed--this saturday! I can hardly wait, and I hope it goes as smooth as possible.
 

davyuk

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Halruaa said:
Everyone has heard of wisdom teeth, granted they serve no purpose, at least i've never read or have been told they serve a purpose. The average human jaw isnt large enough to accomadate(sp?) the wisdom teeth. Now, why is this? *snip*

Wisdom teeth may not be convincing evidence for evolution to the hardened creationist, but it does add to the 'design imperfection' pot. Wisdom teeth in most humans serve no purpose other than to rupture the gum, or impact another tooth, thus causing great pain and the necessity for removal.

They're un-needed, just like the hair follicles that cover our naked bodies.
 
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Halruaa said:
Everyone has heard of wisdom teeth, granted they serve no purpose, at least i've never read or have been told they serve a purpose. The average human jaw isnt large enough to accomadate(sp?) the wisdom teeth. Now, why is this?

Couldn't this be because perhaps its an evolutionary change that humans are going through right now because our eating habits have changed over thousands of years? Scientists know that nehanderthals(sp?) needed all their teeth for eating rough raw foods. Its also a fact that in the last 300 years, the average american has gotten taller.

Discuss! Oh, and Its my pleasure to tell everyone that i'll be fortunate enough to have my wisdom teeth removed--this saturday! I can hardly wait, and I hope it goes as smooth as possible.
I have seen wisdom teeth used as an argument against evolution (we are becoming worse (devolving) hence our mouths are no longer big enough for the teeth) I think the rest of the thread is on topic though, and our changes are the result of diet etc. If you want examples of evolution (and not just mere "possible signs" then there are lots ;)
 
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WinAce

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First, let's take down the standard creationist "rebuttal". Then we can get down to business.

A common misconception among the lay public and media is that "vestigial" is equivalent to useless. Depending on the definition of "useful", this can be true or false, and varies on a case by case basis. However, the biological term, at least as it pertains to evolution, has always meant "reduced or rudimentary structure when compared with the same structure in another organism".

I think this confusion comes from the way biological "function" is quite specific and differs from the way we use it in common language, e.g. "usefulness". I'll expand on this below.

It could be argued that an inner tube in an aeroplane wing designed by modifying a car tire via evolutionary computer simulation has some "function", i.e. ties it together instead of nuts and bolts; but the fact that it's lacking its "proper purpose", as Darwin put it, in favor of some marginal application many other structures are more suited to or no application at all, makes it a bona-fide vestige.

Similarly, a broken radio in a car may prevent the dashboard above from collapsing; nevertheless, no one in their right mind would claim that made the radio any less broken.

For another example, fused wings might make a beetle's back harder and subsequently less prone to smushing; yet they're still vestigial wings that no longer serve what they're clearly best suited for. Finally, eyes on blind cave fish might be described as "functional" in that they keep their brains from leaking out their eye sockets; but they're still vestigial EYES.

TalkOrigins, as always, subtly rips creationists a few new belly holes in this well-researched article, including pointing out that Scadding, whom anti-evolutionists love to quote as a supporter of the "vestigial = useless" concept, was quite wrong about the definition of "vestiges", which hasn't been significantly revised in more than a century.

Nevertheless, vestigial organs are now only an accessory line of evidence, not the main ones supporting evolution. They simply don't have the whiz-bang factor of stuff like fossils and ancient retroviral infection fragments shared in genomes of related species.

Vestiges just can't compete here, but they can be an independent test on common descent nevertheless. The standard phylogenetic tree makes a great number of predictions on which ones can be found and which are barred. Mammals, for example, will never have vestigial feathers in this scenario, as they diverged from the reptiles before birds. Neither will a new species of tropical amphibian be discovered that nurses its young. Sharks will never have vestigial reptilian teeth. And so on, on, and on...

So, where does that leave us? Simply put, there are a great many vestiges in the biosphere. Dandelions, which reproduce without fertilization, nevertheless produce vestigial flowers and pollen. Humans have vestigial wisdom teeth that don't even sprout in much of the population, much less help in any significant way, and that often create problems by using too much jaw space.

3dwis.gif


Twenty-eight teeth are fully sufficient for the human jaw, with the extra four causing many a problem in dental history by erupting incorrectly due to our smaller jaws. But just for posterity, how many teeth did ancient fossil hominids possess? ;)

jaws.gif


You may count them. That's 32, with the last ones being similarly oversized as our own wisdom teeth but nicely-fitting in such a massive jaw. Compare the Australopithecus africanus and Homo sapiens jaws in the lower part of the illustration, and take note that the first preceded the other in the fossil record.

Another example; snakes and whales can independently be assigned as descendants of leg-possessing animals based on independent evidence, such as anatomical analysis of their skulls and rib cages. In some species of both, a vestigial pelvis can be found. As has been discussed before, whales occasionally resurface with the actual digit-possessing hindlimbs. Embryonic comparison confirms this as well, as whales develop temporary hind limb buds.

Finally, early fossil whales had real, bona-fide legs, latter ones used them progressively less, and the last ones had almost undetectible vestiges.

Is the independent confirmation of four fundamentally different lines of evidence yet another "coincidence" that common descent would predict but common descent-denial needs to explain away? ;)
 
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Data

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Jet Black said:
how many teeth do you have data? I like new zealand, so I am sure we could slot you in ;)
I honestly have no idea.. I know my mother had them, don't know about my father though.

But really, what could possibly be the selection pressure for the removal of wisdom teeth? I was thinking that it was possibly already a receding trait before any kind of dental care was around, because nothing else makes sense.
 
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the_malevolent_milk_man

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LOL! We're supposed to have 32 teeth?! I remember my sister had to get her wisdom teeth pulled when she was still a teenager. Thought mine had come in and I didn't notice... Just got finished counting in the mirror and I've got 28.

My perfect teeth combined with my superior inteligence and pretty hair will surely help create a better gene pool! I better get to breeding >=D
 
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Melange_Thief

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I'd heard that blondes were supposedly going extinct too. But, I still applied natural selection and realized that blondes could not die out, unless suddenly a mysterious winged predator with an appetite for blonde-haired humans showed up. If it's a recessive gene, darker-haired people can still carry them, and create a few more from time to time if they're lucky.
 
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LorentzHA

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Jet Black said:
me too :) The British Empire will rise again, spearheaded by Homo Sapiens-Superior :)
Again? Darn that mean I am going to have to dig out my original American flag flown by the colonists with the British flag where the 50 stars now are-and the 13 stripes the same as now. RATS!
 
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