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Recent content by Chris Date

  1. Chris Date

    Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

    The defender of eternal torment will say that Jesus bore the penalty we deserved. But because he is the God-man, the finite duration during which he suffered is the equivalent of the eternity of suffering otherwise awaiting his people. I do agree that even in this there's a problem with...
  2. Chris Date

    Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

    No, if you replace "between death and resurrection" with "on the cross." But I do think it's a weak argument, because the divine nature of Christ, it seems to me, means he can in fact exhaust an eternity of punitive suffering in the few hours he suffered on the cross. The better argument, it...
  3. Chris Date

    Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

    That's right, that's not founded in Scripture. In fact, it's a heresy. No orthodox Christian has ever held that Christ paid the penalty of hell between his death and resurrection. What defenders of eternal torment have said is that he paid the equivalent of an eternity in hell on the cross...
  4. Chris Date

    Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

    I don't think the finite duration of Christ's suffering is the real issue here. As the God-man, both divine and human, Christ's finite duration of suffering can, I think, substitute for an eternity of suffering if that's what would have awaited his people, and what awaits the lost. The bigger...
  5. Chris Date

    Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

    That's right. But what he paid is the penalty believers deserved, and believers did not deserve a different penalty than what the unsaved deserve. Er go, the penalty the unsaved deserve is death, not eternal life in immortal torment. Anyone else like to respond to my challenge?
  6. Chris Date

    Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

    I encourage you to re-read my challenge, as it doesn't sound as though you read it carefully. Here it is again, for the benefit likewise of anyone else who wishes to take on my challenge: Substitutionary, atoning, sacrificial death is worked into the warp and woof of salvation history from the...
  7. Chris Date

    Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

    This is true, although as I demonstrate in the quotes from conservative evangelicals I've added to my previous comment, I was not over-exuberant. In any event, God bless and take care. I'll let someone familiar with orthodox views of the atonement take on my challenge.
  8. Chris Date

    Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

    There's that disrespect again. Take care.
  9. Chris Date

    Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

    Perhaps. Or perhaps you're mistaken about what conservative evangelicals generally believe. Wayne Grudem, for example, writes that as a result of the atonement, God "declares that we have no penalty to pay for sin, including past, present, and future sins." (Systematic Theology) John MacArthur...
  10. Chris Date

    Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

    Yes. Or to be extremely precise, every evangelical I know, and who has shared his or her understanding of the atonement with me (or has had it published, etc.), believes that.
  11. Chris Date

    Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

    I've never met an evangelical who believes that, and it's not the historic, orthodox understanding of the atonement. So yes, my challenge may not apply to such a professing Christian, but I think such a one ought to do more careful study.
  12. Chris Date

    Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

    Thanks for the irenic reply to my post. However, it does not seem to me to be an answer to my challenge. Can you help me understand how this explains how Jesus' physical demise can be said to be substitutionary if the resurrected lost will never physically die?
  13. Chris Date

    Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

    Stuart, you said earlier not to interact with you if I don't want to be treated disrespectfully and uncharitably. I'd rather not be, so unless you want to offer an irenic response to my challenge from the atonement, I'll pass on answering your question. Thanks.
  14. Chris Date

    Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

    Since no one has yet taken up the challenge I've issued twice now, I'll issue it a third time. I'd like to ask the defenders of eternal torment here what they make of the fact that Jesus, who we evangelicals believe is our substitutionary, atoning sacrifice for sin, died in our place...
  15. Chris Date

    Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

    Understood. Thanks.
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