• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Are professed Christians that worship our Lord on Sunday instead of Saturday sinning?

Are professed Christians that worship our Lord on Sunday instead of Saturday sinning?

  • Yes

    Votes: 3 11.5%
  • No

    Votes: 22 84.6%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 1 3.8%

  • Total voters
    26
  • This poll will close: .

Hentenza

I will fear no evil for You are with me
Site Supporter
Mar 27, 2007
37,133
5,135
On the bus to Heaven
✟148,395.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The true Yashar Al (Israel) Of Yah-shua's (Jesus) (Yah YHWH)-(Shua Saved Salvation) time, were those who are yoked to righteous headship. it is those Yashar AL that will be saved through Yah's Shua.

This doesn't change, nor has it changed.

It is forever settled in heaven.

(CLV) Ps 119:89
For the eon, O Yahweh, Your word is stationed in the heavens.

(CLV) Ps 119:90
For generation after generation is Your faithfulness; You have established the earth, and it shall stand.

(CLV) Ps 119:91
They stand today by Your ordinances, For they all are Your servants.

(CLV) Ps 119:92
Unless Your law had been my delectation, Then I would have perished in my humiliation.

(CLV) Ps 119:93
For the eon I shall not forget Your precepts, For by them have You revived me.

(CLV) Ps 119:94
I am Yours; save me, For I have sought after Your precepts.

Do you believe that the Pharisees were the true Yashar Al in Yahshua's time?
The only way to salvation is through faith in Jesus so I guess you are talking about the remnant. The remnant will have faith and accept the Messiah. Until then the body of Christ is God’s people.
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,732
4,691
Hudson
✟353,822.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
I’ve had several people that keep the sabbath argue that the sabbath is a moral commandment, therefore, those that do not worship on Saturday are sinning and consequently living in sin. The poll is self explanatory. If you choose maybe please post why.

Be blessed.
The command to keep the 7th day holy is not the command to worship God on the 7th day. The Israelites worshipped God on every day, which included obeying His command to keep the 7th day holy. In Mark 7:6-9, Jesus criticized Pharisees as being hypocrites for setting aside the commandments of God in order to establish their own traditions, so there is nothing wrong with someone following a tradition of worshipping God on Sunday in addition to obeying His command to keep the 7th day holy, but they should not hypocritically set aside any of God’s commands in order to follow their tradition. Sin is the transgression of God’s law (1 John 3:4) and God’s law commands to keep the 7th day holy (Exodus 20:8-11), so it is a sin to not do that. Morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to be doers of God’s character traits, so all of God’s are inherently moral laws.
 
  • Like
Reactions: HARK!
Upvote 0

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Site Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
65,788
10,823
US
✟1,596,556.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
The only way to salvation is through faith in Jesus so I guess you are talking about the remnant. The remnant will have faith and accept the Messiah. Until then the body of Christ is God’s people.
Yah told us.

The Prophets told us.

John the Baptist told us.

Yahshua told us.

The message remains the same. Repent! Turn from sin. (Faith) is an abstract word. Emunah (faith) is found throughout Yah's word.

Here is a good study on the word Emunah:

 
Upvote 0

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Site Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
65,788
10,823
US
✟1,596,556.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Yes. He is talking about the law overall including the ceremonial law.
No he wasn't. He was speaking of the lawless. Yah doesn't break out a category of ceremonial law. That is an invention of man.

Here are some telling clues:

1. Yah gave the instruction to obey his Torah. His Torah is an expression of his character; and Yah doesn't change.

2.) This passage was delivered before Yahshua came. Yahshua kept the Torah; and so did his disciples; and he told us to do the same.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,732
4,691
Hudson
✟353,822.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
The Jerusalem Council (Acts 15) ruled that Gentiles do not have to convert to Judaism to become Christians, and Paul's letters are consistent with this ruling.
In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Torah was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which included repenting from breaking the Sabbath. Jesus also set a sinless example for us to follow of how to practice Judaism by walking in sinless obedience to the Torah, which included keeping the Sabbath holy, and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6). So Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers how to practice Judaism by word and by example. While the Jerusalem Council ruled that Gentiles do not need to convert to Jews in order to become followers of Christ, they did not rule that Gentiles do not need to covert to Judaism in order to become Christians or that Gentiles can follow Jesus by refusing to follow what he taught. Rather, the Jerusalem Council affirmed that Gentiles heard and believed the Gospel that Jesus taught (Acts 15:6-7).

Romans 14 also applies to this question.
That chapter very notably neglects to mention the Sabbath.
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,732
4,691
Hudson
✟353,822.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Col 2:16: “Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day - things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.' The Sabbath is gone.
In Colossians 2:16-23, they were keeping God's feasts in obedience to God's commands, they were being judged for doing that by pagans who were promoting humans precepts and traditions, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body, and Paul was encouraging them not to let anyone judge them and precent them from obeying God. Those promoting asceticism and serenity to the body would be judging people for celebrating feasts, not for refraining from doing that.

The Sabbath was the seventh day of the week. It was instituted under the Mosaic law, between the fall of man and Moses. There were no Sabbath laws. There was no Sabbath observance. That came in the Mosaic law. Centuries went by; none of the patriarchs had any kind of Sabbath laws. On the seventh day, after creation, you remember, God rested and God blessed that day.
There are many examples of God's laws being followed without it being recorded when God first gave them such as with Genesis 39:9 where Joseph knew that it was a sin to commit adultery, so the fact that the first recorded instance of a command against adultery wasn't until Sinai does not give justification for assuming that there was no law against adultery prior to that, and the same is true for the Sabbath.

Why? As a day that would always be a memorial to the fact that God had created the universe in six days, so the seventh day was always going to be a reminder of God as our Creator. Every Saturday that comes along - which is the seventh day of the week, Sunday being the first day of the week - every Saturday that comes along is a good day for us to remember, first of all, God is Creator. And we have that in our heritage.
Keeping the Sabbath holy testifies that there is a Creator who created the world in six days, who rested on the 7th, who sanctified it, and who sanctifies us, so those who believe in the truth of these things live in a way that testifies about them by keeping the Sabbath holy rather than a way that bears false witness against them. The Sabbath is holy to God regardless of whether or not we keep it holy, and what is holy to God should not be profaned by man, so we wold still be obligated to keep the Sabbath holy even if God had never commanded anyone to do that.

When the Mosaic law came along, God ordained a Sabbath day for the people to observe and to obey God, and God put some restraints on them to remind them of their sinfulness. So, every Saturday that comes along kind of has a two-fold role; it causes us to remember God as Creator, and to remember how sinful we really are - and truly we are sinful. But the Sabbath is gone.
Nowhere does the Bible state that God gave the Sabbath in order to remind us of how sinful we really are.

It is part of Judaism that has been replaced by the new covenant, and the new covenant has a completely different day. Saturday, reminds us of God as Creator and God as law-giver, and it reminds us of the beauty of God’s creation, the magnificence of His creation, and the sinfulness of our own hearts. But when you come to the new covenant, you have a new kind of observation, not observing God as Creator, not observing God as law-giver, but in the new covenant God is defining Himself as what? Saviour.
Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example and the reason why he established the New Covenant was not in order to nullify anything that he spent his ministry teaching or so that we could continue to have the same lawlessness that caused the New Covenant to be needed in the first place, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 31:33, Ezekiel 36:26-27). Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it.

So, the new covenant has its own day, a day in which we focus on God as our Saviour, and that's Sunday.
Nowhere does the Bible state this.

In NT, the Church worshipped on Sunday. For instance, Acts 20:7 states that “on the first day of the week we came together to break bread.” Paul also urges the Corinthian believers, “On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income” 1 Cor 16:2 . Since Paul designates this offering as “service” in 2 Cor 9:12, this collection may have been linked with the Sunday worship service of the Christian assembly. Historically, Sunday, not Saturday, was the normal meeting day for Christians in the church, and its practice dates back to the first century.
In Acts 2:46, they broke bread together on every day, so there is nothing about an instance of that happening on the 1st day of the week that means that the New Covenant has its own day or that they were no longer keeping the 7h day holy. It is important to keep in mind that ind that for Jews the day starts in the evening in accordance with Genesis 1 says that there was evening and then there was morning, so the 1st day of the week starts on Saturday night at sundown. Jews have a longstanding tradition of meeting at this times for Havdalah in order to mark the end of the Sabbath and the transition to the work week. Jews also traditionally don't handle money on the Sabbath, so this was also a time that would work well to take an offering. If they had been taking an offering on the Sabbath, then that is what would have indicated that they were transitioning away from keeping it holy, but 1 Corinthians 16:2 is in accordance with it. So Paul did not speak from morning until midnight, but rather he spoke from sundown until midnight and left on Sunday morning to travel. This does not support that they met on Sunday morning, and even if they had, this does not establish that it was the start of a new tradition, and even if it was, it does not establish that they were hypocritically setting aside God's command to keep the 7th day holy in order to establish their own tradition, and even if they were, then this would not establish that we should follow their example of sin.
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,732
4,691
Hudson
✟353,822.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
“But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5‬:‭18‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬
In Romans 7-8, Paul said that the Law of God is good, that he wanted to do good, that he delighted in obeying it, and that he served it with his mind in contrast with the law of sin, which was working within his members to cause him not to do the good that he wanted to do, which was waging war against the law of his mind, which he served with his flesh, which held him captive, and which the Law of the Spirit has free us from. Moreover, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God. In Galatians 5:16-23, Paul contrasted the desire of the flesh with desires of the Spirit and everything that he listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Law of God while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. The desires of the flesh causing us not to do the good that we want to do is how Paul described his struggle with the law of sin in Romans 7 and the Law of the Spirit has free us from the the law of sin, so that is the law that we are not under when we are led by the Spirit. The Law of God was given by God and the Spirit is God, so it would be contradictory to interpret Galatians 5:18 as referring to the Law of God as if we are not led by God when we are led by God. Similarly, if we are not under the Law of God when we are led by the Spirit, then we would be free to become doers of the desires of the flesh, which is the opposite of what Paul was saying.

That’s exactly right which is why the Mosaic law was never given to the gentile church and what Paul is teaching in both Romans and Galatians. Unbelieving Israel remains under the old covenant and under the old laws. This will continue until the end of the time of the gentiles.
In Matthew 4:15-23, Christ began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message. Christ also set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6). So Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example and being a Christian is about being a follower of what he taught, not about refusing to follow him. Neither Romans nor Galatians should be interpreted as speaking against being a follower of Christ. The reason why Jesus established the New Covenant was not in order to nullify anything that he spent his ministry teaching or so that we could continue to have the same lawlessness that caused the New Covenant to be needed in the first place, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 31:33, Ezekiel 36:26-27). All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160), so God doesn't have any old laws.
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
14,397
5,757
USA
✟745,074.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Verse 8 is not about the Sabbath rest as clearly shown in the Greek.https://www.christianforums.com/threads/are-professed-christians-that-worship-our-lord-on-sunday-instead-of-saturday-sinning.8337029/post-78305394

Verse 9 is about the Sabbath rest Heb4:9NIV which the Sabbath rest is according to the commandment. Luke23:56

Verse 10 shows clearly these two different rests this entire passage is referring to - the rest we enter in Christ through faith and the Sabbath rest, which is on the seventh day, the day God rested Heb4:4 Exo20:11 Gen2:1-3 we are told as well, for those who Also entered His rest.

Heb4:10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also (meaning they are doing something else in addition and it tells us plainly what that is) ceased from his works as God did from His.

This passage tells us when God ceased from His works, that one also does for those who has entered His rest through faith

Heb 4:4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way:

When did God speak in a certain place of the seventh day in this way. What the writer of Hebrews is bringing us back to. There is only one...

Exo 20:1 And God spoke all these words, saying:

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates.


Heb4:4“And God rested on the seventh day from all His works;

Exo 20: 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

There is no need to go outside what the Scriptures are saying.

We do not receive spiritual rest in Christ if we are being disobedient to one of His commandments.. What this passage is warning and why those before never entered because of disobedience during the trial of the wilderness Heb4:6 what David was referring the author is quoting Psa 95:7-13 and sadly what is being taught today is the exact reason many never entered into their promise land Eze20:13 that we are told not to follow in their path of disobedience Heb4:11 because its the same laws that guard the gates of heaven (our promise land) Rev22:14-15 Rev 11:18-19 rebelling against God's commandments is not the way back to reconciliation. He died for our sins, He will help us forsake our sins if we turn from them 1 John 1:9 Pro28:13 He will enable us to keep them through our love and cooperation John14:15-18 He will not force them on us and if we continue in that path, there remains no more sacrifice Heb10:26-30

Jesus never abrogated any of His commandments. He said come to Him He will give us rest Mat11:28 quoting Psa38:3 and still kept the Sabbath day holy Luke4:16, it was never one or the other. Christ rest does not delete our moral obligation to keep the 4th commandment or any of God's commandments that He defined as His Exo20:6 Deut4:13 Exo31:18 .

Isa 48:18 Oh, that you had heeded My commandments!
Then your peace would have been like a river,
And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

Lets all enter Christ's rest through faith, allowing the God of the Universe to define His commandments and He did so plainly. Man can't change anything not a jot or tittle because we are not God and called to love Him and be His servants Isa56:1-7 and a servant is not greater than their master.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Hentenza

I will fear no evil for You are with me
Site Supporter
Mar 27, 2007
37,133
5,135
On the bus to Heaven
✟148,395.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
No he wasn't. He was speaking of the lawless. Yah doesn't break out a category of ceremonial law. That is an invention of man.

Here are some telling clues:

1. Yah gave the instruction to obey his Torah. His Torah is an expression of his character; and Yah doesn't change.
God did not change, He merely ushered in a new covenant. The law is not included. Jesus fulfilled it fully.
2.) This passage was delivered before Yahshua came. Yahshua kept the Torah; and so did his disciples; and he told us to do the same.
Jesus was the ONLY one that was able to keep the law. No one else ever did. Jesus gave us two commandments that enveloped ALL of the law and the prophets.
 
Upvote 0

HIM

Friend
Site Supporter
Mar 9, 2018
5,115
2,095
59
Alabama
Visit site
✟588,444.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The Jerusalem Council (Acts 15) ruled that Gentiles do not have to convert to Judaism to become Christians, and Paul's letters are consistent with this ruling.
You are misunderstanding Acts and No Paul’s are not
 
Upvote 0

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Site Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
65,788
10,823
US
✟1,596,556.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
God did not change, He merely ushered in a new covenant.
It's not a new covenant. It's a renewed covenant.

Jer 31:31
Behold, the days are coming, averring is Yahweh, when I will contract a new (חדשה)covenant with the house of Israel (Notice who the contract is with) and the house of Judah.



ל הִנֵּה יָמִים בָּאִים, נְאֻם-יְהוָה; וְכָרַתִּי, אֶת-בֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל וְאֶת-בֵּית יְהוּדָה--בְּרִית חֲדָשָׁה.

châdash, khaw-dash'; a primitive root; to be new; causatively, to rebuild:—renew, repair.
Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon [?] (Jump to Scripture Index)

STRONGS H2318:
† [חָדַשׁ] verb only Pi. (and Hithp.) renew, repair (in poetry and late) (Late Hebrew id., Phoenician חדש; noun חדש new moon, also in קרתחדשת new-city£½Carthage; Aramaic Tedfo and חַדֵּשׁ; Arabic حَدَثَ be new, Ethiopic ሐደለ፡ I. 2. renew; Sabean החדתֿ, see Os (Levy): ZMG 1865, 204 MordtZMG 1876, 30; Assyrian [adâڑu], uddiڑ, renew, eڑڑu, new, etc. DlW 199 ff.) —
Pi. Perfect וְחִדְּשׁוּ consecutive Isaiah 61:4; Imperfect וַיְחַדֵּשׁ 2 Chronicles 15:8; 2nd person masculine singular תְּחַדֵּשׁ Job 10:17; Psalm 104:30; וּנְחַדֵּשׁ 1 Samuel 11:14; Imperative חַדֵּשׁ Psalm 51:21; Infinitive לְחַדֵּשׁ 2 Chronicles 24:4, 12; —
1. renew, make anew הַמְּלוּכָה 1 Samuel 11:14 (editorial); פני אדמה Psalm 104:30, רוּחַ Psalm 51:12 (|| בּרא); = bring back יָמֵינוּ כְּקֶדֶם Lamentations 5:21; עדיך ח׳ Job 10:17 i.e. bringest fresh (new) witnesses.

(CLV) Ezk 37:21
speak to them, Thus says my Lord Yahweh: Behold, I shall take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will convene them from all around and bring them to their own ground.

(CLV) Ezk 37:22
I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be king for them all. They shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they be divided into two kingdoms any longer.

(CLV) Hb 8:8
For, blaming them, He is saying, "Lo! the days are coming~," the Lord is saying, "And I shall be concluding with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new (καινην, Kainos) covenant,

Kainos, not Neos

G3501 néos – new ("new on the scene"); recently revealed or "what was not there before" (TDNT), including what is recently discovered.

G3501 /néos ("new on the scene") suggests something "new in time" – in contrast to its near-synonym (2537 /kainós, "new in quality").

Oh, and BTW, the Sons of Zadok, who YHWH bestowed authority to settle all disputes regarding scripture, renewed their covenant every year at Passover. Why do you suppose that YHWH told us to honor his Passover forever?

The law is not included. Jesus fulfilled it fully.
Yes it is. I thought that we went over this already. In case I forgot, or you missed it;


(CLV) Mt 5:17
"You should not infer that I came to demolish the law or the prophets. I came not to demolish, but to fulfill.

(CLV) Mt 5:18
For verily, I am saying to you, Till heaven and earth should be passing by, one iota or one serif may by no means be passing by from the law till all should be occurring.

(CLV) Mt 5:19
"Whosoever, then, should be annulling one of the least of these precepts, and should be teaching men thus, the least in the kingdom of the heavens shall he be called. Yet whoever should be doing and teaching them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens.

(CLV) Mt 5:20
For I am saying to you that, if ever your righteousness should not be superabounding more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, by no means may you be entering into the kingdom of the heavens.


Furthermore:

(CLV) Mt 5:18
For verily, I am saying to you, Till heaven and earth should be passing by, one iota or one serif may by no means be passing by from THE LAW till all should be occurring.

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of THE LAW to fall.

Last time I checked, the earth was still here.
 
Upvote 0

HIM

Friend
Site Supporter
Mar 9, 2018
5,115
2,095
59
Alabama
Visit site
✟588,444.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
God did not change, He merely ushered in a new covenant. The law is not included. Jesus fulfilled it fully.
The ministration changed. The Law went From tables of stone and parchment to in the fleshly tables of the heart. Sin is defined by the law. As long as there is sin there is the Law.
 
Upvote 0

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Site Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
65,788
10,823
US
✟1,596,556.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Jesus was the ONLY one that was able to keep the law.
Wrong. The scripture is full of righteous men.

Here are just a few of numerous examples:


(CLV) Lk 1:5
There came to be, in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zechariah, of the routine of Abiah, and his wife, of the daughters of Aaron, and her name is Elizabeth.

(CLV) Lk 1:6
Now they were both just in front of God, going in all the precepts and just statutes of the Lord, blameless.

(CLV) Jb 1:1
There was a man in the land of Uz. Job was his name. This man was flawless and upright, fearing Elohim and keeping away from evil.

(CLV) Php 3:6
in relation to zeal, persecuting the ecclesia, in relation to the righteousness which is in law, becoming blameless.
 
Upvote 0

Hentenza

I will fear no evil for You are with me
Site Supporter
Mar 27, 2007
37,133
5,135
On the bus to Heaven
✟148,395.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
In Romans 7-8, Paul said that the Law of God is good, that he wanted to do good, that he delighted in obeying it, and that he served it with his mind in contrast with the law of sin, which was working within his members to cause him not to do the good that he wanted to do, which was waging war against the law of his mind, which he served with his flesh, which held him captive, and which the Law of the Spirit has free us from. Moreover, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God. In Galatians 5:16-23, Paul contrasted the desire of the flesh with desires of the Spirit and everything that he listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Law of God while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. The desires of the flesh causing us not to do the good that we want to do is how Paul described his struggle with the law of sin in Romans 7 and the Law of the Spirit has free us from the the law of sin, so that is the law that we are not under when we are led by the Spirit. The Law of God was given by God and the Spirit is God, so it would be contradictory to interpret Galatians 5:18 as referring to the Law of God as if we are not led by God when we are led by God. Similarly, if we are not under the Law of God when we are led by the Spirit, then we would be free to become doers of the desires of the flesh, which is the opposite of what Paul was saying.
The error that I continue to see is the misunderstanding of what happened to the law in the new covenant. The law did not go away but was fulfilled in Jesus 2 love commandments. You fail to see the beginning of Rom. 8 when the chapter begins with “therefore”. This means that this is the conclusion of what came before.

“Therefore there is now no condemnation at all for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8‬:‭1‬-‭4‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Paul call the law weak and ineffective here. Do you really think that Paul is promoting the law? Of course not. The law is fulfilled in Christ . We are under the Spirit now.

Same with Gal. 5. Paul just finished describing the law as a curse, a guardian that we no longer need, and overall a hindrance to faith. Again, do you think that Paul is promoting the law? You are introducing tension to scripture that should not be there. That should tell you that you need to rethink your interpretation.
In Matthew 4:15-23, Christ began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message.
Repenting still is but not the law. Remember that Christ began evangelizing the Jews primarily and Christ had not yet fulfilled the law. Christ had to correct the Jews if the time by fulfilling the law perfectly and that led to His crucifixion. All according to His plan and His will,
Christ also set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6).
The only way that we can walk as He did is by fully cooperating with the Spirit throughout our sanctification process which is why we are exhorted repeatedly to walk in the Spirit. And even then we still sin but repent and He is faithful and forgive our sin.
So Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example and being a Christian is about being a follower of what he taught, not about refusing to follow him.
Christ never taught the law to the gentile. It was always as He ministered to the Jews. Please understand the stages of His ministry and to whom He was ministering. The new covenant was ushered by His death and resurrection and not before.
Neither Romans nor Galatians should be interpreted as speaking against being a follower of Christ.
Both Romans and Galatians are inspired scripture so they carry the same weight as the writers of the Gospels. Jesus never wrote anything Himself so the red letter wording was witnessed and written by the writers. Also, neither Romans nor Galatians speak against Christ. Inspired scripture does not contradict itself only peoples interpretations do.
The reason why Jesus established the New Covenant was not in order to nullify anything that he spent his ministry teaching or so that we could continue to have the same lawlessness that caused the New Covenant to be needed in the first place, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 31:33, Ezekiel 36:26-27). All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160), so God doesn't have any old laws.
Jesus fully fulfilled the law in Himself. The Christian is not under the law.
 
Upvote 0

Hentenza

I will fear no evil for You are with me
Site Supporter
Mar 27, 2007
37,133
5,135
On the bus to Heaven
✟148,395.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The ministration changed. The Law went From tables of stone and parchment to in the fleshly tables of the heart. Sin is defined by the law. As long as there is sin there is the Law.
Totally disagree with you. Walk in the Spirit and He will convict you of your sin. The Jewish law is not longer applicable to the Christian.
 
Upvote 0

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Site Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
65,788
10,823
US
✟1,596,556.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Jesus gave us two commandments that enveloped ALL of the law and the prophets.
Wrong again.

YHWH gave us those commandments. Yahshua quoted only one greatest commandment. There can only be one greatest of all. That doesn't nullify the second greatest, nor any of the others. If you obey the greatest commandment; then by default you have obeyed the second greatest; and all of the rest.



(CLV) Mt 22:36
"Teacher, what is the great precept in the law (Torah)?"

(CLV) Mt 22:37
Now He averred to him, "You shall be loving the Lord your God iwith your whole heart, and with your whole soul, and with your whole comprehension.


This is nothing new. It was the truth all along.

Yashshua is quoting the Shema, found in the Yah's Torah.

CLV) Dt 6:4
Hear, Israel! Yahweh is our Elohim; Yahweh the only One.

(CLV) Dt 6:5
So you will love Yahweh your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your intensity.

(CLV) Dt 6:6
These words which I am instructing you today will come to be in your heart.

(CLV) Dt 6:7
You will repeat them to your sons, and you will speak of them when you sit- in your house, when you walk- on the road, when you lie- down and when you arise-.

(CLV) Dt 6:8
You will tie them for a sign on your hand, and they will come to be for the brow-bands between your eyes;

(CLV) Dt 6:9
you will write them on the jambs of your house and ion your gates.

Have you recited the Shema today?


I proclaim it every day.

שמע​


HARK!


(CLV) Jn 14:15
If you should be loving Me,you will be keeping My precepts.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Jerry N.
Upvote 0

ChubbyCherub

Active Member
Aug 19, 2025
248
211
The Sixth Day
✟9,755.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Female
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I am going to discuss this with my church to see what their views are and why but, in the meantime, they are asking for volunteers for church events on Saturday evenings. Is this technically breaking Sabbath? I just don't know!
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
14,397
5,757
USA
✟745,074.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I am going to discuss this with my church to see what their views are and why but, in the meantime, they are asking for volunteers for church events on Saturday evenings. Is this technically breaking Sabbath? I just don't know!
The Sabbath is from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown.

The Sabbath we are to keep the Sabbath day holy Exo20:8 Focusing on God Isa58:13 helping others in need is not a sin on the Sabbath Mat12:12 :)
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: ChubbyCherub
Upvote 0