The Reality of Free Will

[Clare73]

There isn't any scripture in the Bible that says this.

Agreed. . ."free will' of man is not presented in Scripture. . .there is no Scripture in the Bible that states man has a "free will."
That is a human notion (Pelagius), not a Biblical notion. . .based on the assumption that responsiblity for sin requires that man have a free will. . .
Not so in the Bible. . .starting with the imputation of Adam's sin (Ro 5:17, 12-16) to all mankind at birth. . .and making us by nature, objects of wrath (Eph 2:3). . .with no choice in the matter.

However, there is Jesus' statement that all men are slaves to sin (Jn 8:34). . .slaves are not free.

 

[concretecamper]

Free will is the power to make all moral choices.

Free will is ability to make A moral choice, not the ability/power to make ALL moral choices.

Like I said, you don't understand free will

 

[Clare73]

Free will is ability to make A moral choice, not the ability/power to make ALL moral choices.

Like I said, you don't understand free will

Are you sure about that?. . .Keeping in mind that "free will" is not a Biblial notion, but a human notion.

The Biblical notion is that all men are slaves to sin (Jn 8:34). . .slaves are not free.

If you are unable to make any particular moral choice, you will is not completely free, it is limited.

The will of fallen man is unable to make the moral choice to be sinless, therefore, fallen man's will is not completely free, it is limited.

Or as Jesus puts it, he is a slave to sin (Jn 8:34). . .slaves are not free.

 

[Hentenza]

Free will is ability to make A moral choice, not the ability/power to make ALL moral choices.

Like I said, you don't understand free will

Which one moral choice can you make by free will?

 

[concretecamper]

Are you sure about that?.

100 percent

If you are unable to make any particular moral choice, you will is not completely free, it is limited.

The will of fallen man is unable to make the moral choice to be sinless, therefore, fallen man's will is not completely free, it is limited.

You speak about weakness, not free will

Another example of not understanding free will.

 

[concretecamper]

Which moral choice can you make by free will?

I choose to be charitable to you by not insulting you ignorance.

 

[Hentenza]

I choose to be charitable to you by not insulting you ignorance.

Good for you but then you have never been very charitable with those that don’t agree with you or your church and you call those ignorant so you are not doing a good job being charitable. I guess you don’t have free will being charitable.

 

[Clare73]

100 percent

You speak about weakness,

Precisely. . .free will is power to make moral choices.

not free will

Contraire. . .completely free will is the power to make all moral choices.

If he can't make 'em all, his free will is limited. . .can he choose to be sinless? . . . he cannot. . .his free will is limited.

 

[concretecamper]

Good for you but then you have never been very charitable with those that don’t agree with you or your church and you call those ignorant so you are not doing a good job being charitable. I guess you don’t have free will being charitable.

Yes, sometimes I fail, sometimes I don't, goes to show @Clare73 is off base.

 

[concretecamper]

Precisely. . .free will is power to make moral choices

Correct, I'm glad you dropped the power to make all moral choices.

You're making progress.

Contraire. . .completely free will is the power to make all moral choices.

No, free will is the power to make moral choices is all situations. But as you know, we all fail.

 

[Hentenza]

Yes, sometimes I fail, sometimes I don't, goes to show @Clare73 is off base.

Actually it kind of proves her point. If you have free will to be charitable then your free will would apply in every circumstance but since you agree that sometimes you fail then that means that sometimes you free will fails so you don’t have the free will that you think you have.

So if you fail at being charitable sometimes and being charitable is a moral choice then you fail sometimes at all moral choices which means that you don’t have the free will to make all moral choices.

 

[Clare73]

Correct, I'm glad you dropped the power to make all moral choices.

Precisely. . .any moral choice man is unable to make means his will is not free in that regard.

If he cannot choose to give up his alcohol, his will is not free in that regard, and he does not have complete free will.

If he can give it up, his will is free in that regard.

If man cannot choose to be sinless, his will is not free in that regard, and he does not have complete free will.

No fallen man has complete free will. . .he has only limited free will

 

[concretecamper]

Actually it kind of proves her point. If you have free will to be charitable then your free will would apply in every circumstance

Thank you for proving I am right by highlighting we do make moral choices and sometimes we fail.

 

[concretecamper]

Precisely

You're welcome

If he cannot choose to give up his alcohol, his will is not free in that regard

Correct, but he can choose to do moral action in other matters. I think your starting to realize the difference.

If man cannot choose to be sinless, his will is not free in that regard, and he does not have complete free will.

No fallen man has complete free will. . .he has only limited free will

We sometimes choose to make moral choices, we sometime fail. We have the freedom to do both.

 

[Clare73]

You're welcome

Correct, but he can choose to do moral action in other matters. I think your starting to realize the difference.

We sometimes choose to make moral choices, we sometime fail. We have the freedom to do both.

Freedom is moral power. . .and addicts don't always have the moral power to overcome addiction. . .they are not morally free.

Jesus said mankind was a slave to sin (Jn 8:34). . .slaves are not free.

You either believe Jesus, or you don't.

 

[concretecamper]

Freedom is moral power. . .and addicts don't always have the moral power to overcome addiction. . .they are not morally free.

For the alcoholic, when it comes to alcohol, he lacks moral strength. But in other matters, he can choose to be moral. You can't reasonably argue against that.

Your absolutes are crumbling.

 

[Clare73]

For the alcoholic, when it comes to alcohol, he lacks moral strength. But in other matters, he can choose to be moral. You can't reasonably argue against that.

If you don't have moral power in all things, you are not completely free morally.

If you don't have the power to be sinless, you are a slave to sin (Jn 8:34). . .slaves are not free.

I'm sure you'll understand when I go with Jesus (Jn 8:34) on our moral freedom. . .we are slaves to sin . .until we are born again.

< you've become snarky in your old age. . .I like the old concretecamper much better >

 

[Hentenza]

Thank you for proving I am right by highlighting we do make moral choices and sometimes we fail.

Your comprehension also needs help since that is not what I said.

 

[concretecamper]

If you don't have moral power in all things, you are not completely free morally.

So what, you still have free will. An alcoholic who cannot choose not to drink (BECAUSE OF HIS PREVIOUS FREE WILL CHOICES) can be moral in other matters.

If you don't have the power to be sinless, you are a slave to sin (Jn 8:34). . .slaves are not free.

You can post In 8:34 10 more times, it is not a passage against free will.

I'm going with Jesus (Jn 8:34) on our moral freedom. . .we are slaves. . .until we are born again.

Really, those who are born again according to your definition still choose to sin. Unless you put forward the excuse they weren't really born again

 

[concretecamper]

Your comprehension also needs help since that is not what I said.

Funny how things work, you inadvertently prove others correct.