Illegal Immigration

[HARK!]

President circumvents the law to help his political allies.

I wouldn't say that Biden was helping criminal aliens because he was in alliance with them. However. I do believe that the Democratic party does recognize how important these criminals are useful to their remaining viable. Through the census, these sanctuary cities open more seats in Congress to be held from these areas that support criminal aliens.

 

[HARK!]

Yes, 49.8% of them have spoken.
Quite the “mandate”

On election night, it seemed that Trump had won a majority of votes. But as more votes were counted, Trump’s vote total fell to 49.9% of all votes cast and Harris received 48.3%, as of Nov. 26.


Two third-party candidates — Jill Stein and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. — received more than 750,000 votes each. As a result, neither Trump nor Harris achieved a majority of votes.

Trump Won the Popular Vote, Contrary to Claims Online - FactCheck.org

President-elect Donald Trump is the first Republican presidential candidate to win the popular vote in 20 years. Social media users have wrongly claimed that Trump lost the popular vote, but they are confusing the popular vote with a majority of votes. The unofficial results show Trump received...

www.factcheck.org

Democracy wins again.

 

[HARK!]

Sounds like someone's drunk the Trump cool aid without reviewing the statistics.
As I keep pointing out, the data shows that these people are:-

* VASTLY more likely to be MORE law abiding than the average native-born American citizen!

"Relative to undocumented immigrants, US-born citizens are over 2 times more likely to be arrested for violent crimes, 2.5 times more likely to be arrested for drug crimes, and over 4 times more likely to be arrested for property crimes." Immigrants do under 50% the violent crime and under 25% the theft of Americans!​

* MORE willing to do the jobs no one else will - and end up contributing vastly MORE economic value than they might take in any welfare assistance programs!
Illegal immigration to the United States - Wikipedia

ECONOMIC UNITS
What happened to the neoliberal (and rather reductionist in my 'radical left' opinion) of people as 'economic units'? What happened to the Republican ideal of NOT having the government fuss too much about people because they would always do what was 'economically rational'? Was not the Republican ideal to have smaller government because people generally didn't need that much governing? Didn't Reagan famously say that “In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem.”

MCARTHY's APPRENTICE
So what does Trump do? Creates a BIG government ICE program. It’s ramped up to 15 TIMES the annual spending on ICE (the average across the last 15 years.) He’s spending all this money to do what, exactly? To terrorise neighbourhoods, create mayhem, and rope in the national guard. It’s out of an authoritarian playbook - conditioning citizens to being familiar with the military in their streets. It's straight out of the McCarthy era - which of course is where Trump learned it all. McCarthy's apprentice Roy Cohn mentored Trump back in the day. That's how Trump knows the authoritarian playbook - the victimising of the 'other' - the repetitive fearmongering - the harnessing of rage and hatred as political tools. So the immigrants are "poisoning the blood" (whatever THAT means!) 'They're eating the dogs!' (Hello 1970's racist trope!)

THE RIVER OF GOLD
Trump is wasting all this money to achieve what? To reject a river of gold pouring into America. Send it back! Make no mistake - this is costing tens of billions more than it used to - and it will LOWER the American GDP as all this great, law abiding labour gets sent home.

WE'RE ALL IMMIGRANTS
Let's face it. America is just like Australia. Unless you can trace your family line back ten thousand years - we're ALL immigrants! So what's the problem?

Does this mean that you are OK with unvetted insane, criminal, terrorists freely crossing our borders?

 

[HARK!]

* MORE willing to do the jobs no one else will - and end up contributing vastly MORE economic value than they might take in any welfare assistance programs!
Illegal immigration to the United States - Wikipedia

In the workforce​

Illegal immigrants within the workforce are extremely vulnerable due to their status. Being illegal makes these individuals susceptible to exploitation by employers as they are more willing to work through bad conditions and low income jobs—consequently making themselves vulnerable to abuse.[119] Most illegal migrants end up being hired by US employers who exploit the low-wage market produced through immigration.

Your source

Do you support this?

 

[HARK!]

Not if they're refugees or have valid claims of asylum.

The vast majority of these criminals who claim that they are seeking asylum do not have valid claims.

The criminals who cross the border illegally cut to the front of the line, thereby prolonging the wait of those who are seeking asylum legitimately, and have been waiting for years.

Do you support these criminals who make it more difficult for those who have valid claims, and those who are doing everything right?

 

[ralliann]

Dismissing evidence (studies) with an assertion “Your studies are fake”, should ought to be backed up with more than the assertion itself.

LOL, you will dismiss it. You are making these claims because you have dismissed it.

 

[BCP1928]

In the workforce​

Illegal immigrants within the workforce are extremely vulnerable due to their status. Being illegal makes these individuals susceptible to exploitation by employers as they are more willing to work through bad conditions and low income jobs—consequently making themselves vulnerable to abuse.[119] Most illegal migrants end up being hired by US employers who exploit the low-wage market produced through immigration.

Your source

Do you support this?

Of course not. Only conservatives support such things. That's why ICE is avoiding those situations except for specially staged show raids.

 

[HARK!]

Of course not. Only conservatives support such things.

I'm not drinking that Kool-aid.

Biden's policies supported such things; and many Biden supporters supported his policies.

That's why ICE is avoiding those situations except for specially staged show raids.

Can you prove that; or is this some new Left wing conspiracy theory?

 

[eclipsenow]

Those studies are flawed. They only deal with illegals that have been caught and proven to be illegal. Texas doesn't know they are illegal when caught. There is controversy surrounding the study and this is only in one state. A controversial study in one state. Not reliable.

But out of the violent crime that is recorded, the statistics represented show how much lower undocumented immigrants are than documented, let alone American born citizens.

If - as you suggest, there are far more undocumented immigrants in the State / country than have appeared before law enforcement as a result of crime - then that means as a percentage of the whole there is even LESS crime amongst undocumented immigrants than the study shows!

It's just how mathematics works.

(When you do magic hand waving, try to remember which hand holds the secret or you'll give the trick away.)

The fact is the vast majority are NOT granted asylum. They don't meet the criteria.

Remember my request for evidence?

Remember, we don't have a national religion. If we are goingvto say that we need to follow the OT then should we follow the OT on all things or just the things you want?

I'm talking about how you feel, and how you write.
What would you want the country to do?
Why do you vote the way you do?
Also - we're Christians - so of course we see the OT through the gospel lens of the NT in how the OT concepts of prophet, priest, and king are all transformed through Jesus - and with them our relationship between God's people (the church) and the relevant authorities of the day (the state).

But I still maintain that justifying Trump's dog-whistling to Proud Boys and their friends is difficult for a Christian - because while we are not under the theocratic rule of the OT - we are under its moral obligations.

Love your neighbour.
Who is my neighbour?
That group outside your borders that you do not like - but who seem to care for each other.

To the Jews that was the Samaritans (with their 'poisoned blood' from generations of marrying Assyrians). To Americans it could very well be the kind hearted immigrant family who DID in fact just flee their country because of the drug gangs extortion demands now moving to stealing their teenage daughters.

We have laws on the books and we should follow them.

Yes you should! Both conscience and law require that you apply the international convention of human rights and well being of refugees diligently and carefully.

Yeah I dont do that anymore. I look the stuff up and just say what I've found. I have yet to find anyone who just either disregarded my links or just refused to believe them. So there isnt any point.

Maybe for hardened people who are just not open to data. But your critiques of the Texas study I referenced - let alone the other 3 - have been laughable. You've unwittingly suggested that the undocumented immigrant is even MORE law abiding and careful than the studies show!

So - in other words - you sound exactly like the people you are critiquing who refuse to listen to data. They have their 'truth' in a very postmodern sense - and don't want any unnecessary 'inconvenient truths' mucking up their tidy little universe!

I - on the other hand - respect data.
I know internet debates can change minds.
Why? Because my own has been changed on many things.
I have had to shift the whole tone of my blog repeatedly!

EG: I'm a climate activist. My writing 21 years ago was anti-nuclear. Then for about 15 years I became pro-nuclear - because I was convinced by the studies back then that there was no WAY we could afford to Overbuild renewables enough to compensate for the intermittency - they were just too expensive to build multiples of our grid capacity! But now they are so cheap - and solar is still likely to halve again by 2030 - we CAN Overbuild wind and solar, and still have spare change for all the pumped hydro dams we could want to back it up. (These can be off-river, only pumping in a little water every few months to compensate for evaporation.)

I had to eat humble pie when I finally admitted that the costings were in, and renewables could do the job. That was only about 2.5 years ago.

I had to rewrite huge chunks of my blog in my spare time!

Those who respect reality LET their minds be changed by data!

I've also discovered that far too many so called studies are too unreliable to be depended on as accurate.... They aren't magic hand waving. See above.

The above was a fantastic illustration of magic-hand waving going wrong and giving up the trick.

 

[eclipsenow]

Does this mean that you are OK with unvetted insane, criminal, terrorists freely crossing our borders?

Of course not.
And given the sheer numbers - there will be a few!

But here's the thing. Are you OK with Trump lying about the overwhelming VAST majority? With increasing racial tensions and racial profiling? With masked men grabbing ethnic-looking people off the streets and taking them who-knows-where without due process? Without even having time to consider where their teenage daughter was going - how she was going to get home - when they snatched the mum? With increasing the ICE budget 15 fold when it would be far more economically prudent to maybe just double the processing and get it right?

Trump's NPD means he LOVES drama! Adore him, or hate him, he loves both! All those people who are utterly furious with him are confirming that he is the most important person in the room - because all their attention is focused on him. (But mock him on late night TV? That he cannot tolerate! That threatens his whole narcissistic worldview - and is why so often demagogues who want to be the absolute authority in the land have comedians and intellectuals jailed or executed.)

As the Wiki on Democratic Backsliding says:

• Free and fair elections are degraded;[20]
• Liberal rights of freedom of speech, press[22] and association decline, impairing the ability of the political opposition to challenge the government, hold it to account, and propose alternatives to the current regime;[20][22]
• The rule of law (i.e., judicial and bureaucratic restraints on the government) is weakened,[20] such as when the independence of the judiciary is threatened, or when civil service tenure protections are weakened or eliminated.[23]
• An over-emphasis on national security as response to acts of terrorism or perceived antagonists.[23]
• Democratic backsliding - Wikipedia

This whole emphasis on 'othering' - on blaming ALL the ills of society on 'those people' who are 'not even human - I call them animals' - is straight out of a sociology 101 textbook.

THE BLAME GAME / SPLITTING / OTHERING: Finding a group to blame for all society’s ills. Immigrants took your jobs, radical socialist left assassinates everyone (when the statistics show the right does this 5 times more!) “They’re eating the dogs”, etc.

PROPOGANDA LORDS: Try to control information. Banning comedians, intellectuals from discussing certain things, attacks on universities, attacking the free press. Sound familiar?

https://knowledge.insead.edu/leadership-organisations/fighting-against-dictatorship

 

[BCP1928]

I'm not drinking that Kool-aid.

Biden's policies supported such things; and many Biden supporters supported his policies.

Can you prove that; or is this some new Left wing conspiracy theory?

It's not a conspiracy if it's done openly.

 

[eclipsenow]

The vast majority of these criminals who claim that they are seeking asylum do not have valid claims.

Evidence? Oh - and as we have shown - they might be undocumented - but they're not as criminal as American born citizens with half the violent crime, a quarter of the theft, etc. It might be fun to get all judgie and repeat 'criminals' because they fled some horrible poverty - but remember God's heart for the poor? How do you think God sees these people? They might have broken national boundary laws - but if you want to rate them by biblical standards of law - go ahead and check out how God asked Israel to treat the alien?

The criminals who cross the border illegally

Using tautologies to hammer your point?

cut to the front of the line,

In some countries the American embassy is watched by people who will do bad things to refugees trying to flee by proper means. By all means push the tired old meme of an orderly queue - but next time you have YOUR teenage daughter kidnapped by drug-gangs you couldn't pay your 'protection money' to - and she's sold into the sex trade - get back to us on the necessity of proper paper work!

thereby prolonging the wait of those who are seeking asylum legitimately, and have been waiting for years.

I hear you. So once again you have proved my point for me.
Wouldn't it be great if instead of multiplying the hostile kidnapping arm of ICE by 15 fold - Trump had maybe just DOUBLED the calm, orderly processing of undocumented migrants?

You know - even psychologically assess them - get back ground checks, and let in some of this river of gold legitimately to resolve the issues you've mentioned above.

Find the criminal and insane!
Process the law abiding and respectful!
Prevent those bosses operating indentured servitude like business models with the undocumented!

Trump would have had FAR more success just doubling the calm processing arm of immigration, than driving these people even further underground in a reign of terror that he's also using as a photo-op every time he calls in the National Guard!

("Look at how tough I am! I call in the National Guard on false pretences!")

Do you support these criminals who make it more difficult for those who have valid claims, and those who are doing everything right?

Do you support raising the racial tensions in America, masked men pulling families apart, the extremely controversial and expensive harnessing of the National Guard for pointless political theatre, and raising the ICE budget 15 fold rather than just doubling the processing of the undocumented hardworking MAJORITY?

There's one thing behind all this - a fear from WASPs that they will not be the majority any more in America.
That's it.

And Trump sure knows how to blow that dog-whistle! "Proud boys stand back and stand by!"

 

[HARK!]

Are you OK with Trump lying about the overwhelming VAST majority?

What lie about vast majority?

With increasing racial tensions and racial profiling?

Propaganda. Criminals don't get a free pass based on race. This is America.

With masked men grabbing ethnic-looking people off the streets

Officials who are being doxed not giving criminals a break based on race? Those poor deported criminal Europeans, profiled for breaking the law while being White.

and taking them who-knows-where

ICE facilities; but the cops don't have to tell you which jail they are taking a criminal to; if it's none of your business.

without due process?

Arrest is part of due process.

Without even having time to consider where their teenage daughter was going - how she was going to get home

If an American murders someone; are the police required to consult their daughter before making an arrest?"

With increasing the ICE budget 15 fold when it would be far more economically prudent to maybe just double the processing and get it right?

I don't think that this administration is doing enough. We need more ICE agents IMO. At this rate. the crime problem won't be solved during Trump's term.

often demagogues who want to be the absolute authority in the land have comedians and intellectuals jailed or executed.)

Hyperbole

Liberal rights of freedom of speech, press[22] and association decline, impairing the ability of the political opposition to challenge the government, hold it to account, and propose alternatives to the current regime;[20][22]

Antifa terrorists don't have a right to attack Federal officials.

The rule of law

Antifa doesn't respect the rule of law. Neither do criminal aliens.

An over-emphasis on national security as response to acts of terrorism or perceived antagonists.[23]

I don't think that this administration is doing enough to stop the terrorists. Just yesterday an ICE vehicle was blocked by 10 vehicles, while one of those vehicles rammed the ICE vehicle. One of the terrorists was found to be armed with a semiautomatic firearm.

This whole emphasis on 'othering' - on blaming ALL the ills of society on 'those people' who are 'not even human - I call them animals' - is straight out of a sociology 101 textbook.

More hyperbole

THE BLAME GAME / SPLITTING / OTHERING: Finding a group to blame for all society’s ills. Immigrants took your jobs, radical socialist left assassinates everyone (when the statistics show the right does this 5 times more!) “They’re eating the dogs”, etc.

Propaganda

PROPOGANDA LORDS: Try to control information. Banning comedians, intellectuals from discussing certain things, attacks on universities, attacking the free press.

More propaganda

Sound familiar?

It sounds like what the previous administration was doing.

 

[HARK!]

It's not a conspiracy if it's done openly.

That's a ridiculous statement.

 

[HARK!]

Evidence?

SAN DIEGO (Border Report) — About 80 percent of asylum-seekers who come to the United States are being rejected and sent back home, according to Luis Miranda, Assistant Secretary for Communications with the Department of Homeland Security.

https://fox5sandiego.com/news/border-report/80-of-asylum-seekers-rejected-dhs-official-says/

 

[HARK!]

Wouldn't it be great if instead of multiplying the hostile kidnapping arm of ICE by 15 fold - Trump had maybe just DOUBLED the calm, orderly processing of undocumented migrants?

Arrest is not kidnapping. The first is legal, and necessary. The second is a crime.

 

[HARK!]

You know - even psychologically assess them - get back ground checks, and let in some of this river of gold legitimately to resolve the issues you've mentioned above.

That is difficult to do when they break in illegally. If you posted an add for a roommate; and some criminal broke into your home ans squatted there; would you apply the same standard?

Find the criminal and insane!
Process the law abiding and respectful!

This administration is working on that by telling them to get in line and wait their turn.

Prevent those bosses operating indentured servitude like business models with the undocumented!

Many of these bosses are criminal aliens. This administration is working on that too.

 

[MrMoe]

Evidence? Oh - and as we have shown - they might be undocumented - but they're not as criminal as American born citizens with half the violent crime, a quarter of the theft, etc. It might be fun to get all judgie and repeat 'criminals' because they fled some horrible poverty - but remember God's heart for the poor? How do you think God sees these people? They might have broken national boundary laws - but if you want to rate them by biblical standards of law - go ahead and check out how God asked Israel to treat the alien?

God definitely sees these people and he wouldn’t want them to sin by breaking a countries laws.

That fact is these people broke a law, so there should be a penalty for breaking that law. It’s that simple. The fact that these people commit less crimes than the rest of the American population is irrelevant.

Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly. Leviticus 19:15

There are several verses warning against showing partiality. You are showing partiality to the poor.

Using tautologies to hammer your point?

Ironic given that you keep finding different ways to bringing up the argument that these illegal immigrants are poor and commit less crime so should be allowed to stay.

In some countries the American embassy is watched by people who will do bad things to refugees trying to flee by proper means. By all means push the tired old meme of an orderly queue - but next time you have YOUR teenage daughter kidnapped by drug-gangs you couldn't pay your 'protection money' to - and she's sold into the sex trade - get back to us on the necessity of proper paper work!

Evidence? Meanwhile there is documentation of smugglers killing those they are smuggling.

Archived: Sixth Human Smuggler Convicted for Role in Horrifyingly Brutal Smuggling Scheme

HOUSTON – A sixth and final human smuggler was convicted for his role in a brutal human smuggling scheme that resulted in the murder of two migrants who were unable to pay their smuggling fees.

www.ice.gov

Do you support raising the racial tensions in America,

That’s entirely the fault of the left, who make just about everything into a race issue. This is about illegal immigration not about race.

masked men pulling families apart, the extremely controversial and expensive harnessing of the National Guard for pointless political theatre, and raising the ICE budget 15 fold rather than just doubling the processing of the undocumented hardworking MAJORITY?

Tautology.

There's one thing behind all this - a fear from WASPs that they will not be the majority any more in America.
That's it.

If that was really the case then there would be a movement to stop legal migration too. And there’s nothing wrong with wanting to preserve one’s own culture.

And Trump sure knows how to blow that dog-whistle! "Proud boys stand back and stand by!"

I don’t see what relevance that quote has to illegal immigration.

 

[eclipsenow]

What lie about vast majority?

Sigh. Don't pretend you don't know what I'm talking about. Trump's constant foaming-at-the-mouth rants about illegal immigrants all eating the dogs, being rapists, etc. The way he rants.

He has been dog-whistling to racism. Or - in recent years - maybe not even that?
"Trump has put down his racist dog whistle and picked up a bull horn"

https://theconversation.com/trump-has-put-down-his-racist-dog-whistle-and-picked-up-a-bull-horn-176523'

Officials who are being doxed not giving criminals a break based on race? Those poor deported criminal Europeans, profiled for breaking the law while being White.

You are avoiding the facts on the ground, and just saying "Hey look at this other subject over here!"
Answer the question. Why are Latin looking people being grabbed off the streets? Mum's abducted in New York with their teenage daughters screaming on the side of the road? What is RIGHT about any of this?

ICE facilities; but the cops don't have to tell you which jail they are taking a criminal to; if it's none of your business.

Yeah - they certainly didn't bother communicating anything to that teenage girl I'm talking about. If you haven't seen it - google it. Or hundreds of stories like it.

Arrest is part of due process.

STYLE: And the violence - the teenager daughter - the masks? How about identifying themselves properly and NOT wearing masks? How about street gangs dressing up like that to kidnap people? We're talking about Stormtrooper tactics. Funny how Republicans were anti-mask during Covid when it really mattered - but PRO MASK when the Stormtroopers arrive!

OTHER OPTIONS: What about announcing a calmer, more orderly option for refugees to walk in to the new asylum claim centres? Making these people 'legal's' instead of the ILLEGAL CRIMINALS the MAGA crowd want to resort to calling every last man, woman and child?

Rhetoric matters in sensitive matters like this.

But MAGA would rather their taxes went into punitive ethnic stereotyping anti-immigration efforts than - say - a department of education. Than schools and hospitals. Let's increase ICE spending 15 FOLD IN ONE YEAR and get those 'other coloured' people out - because there's a conspiracy to replace white people as the dominant, majority race - or something....

"Proud boys - stand back and stand by!"

If an American murders someone; are the police required to consult their daughter before making an arrest?

They are required to ensure the child's welfare - and not leave her standing alone on the streets of New York.

Antifa terrorists don't have a right to attack Federal officials.

SEND IN THE GUARD! Portland looks like WW2! It really does - Trump said so!

Antifa doesn't respect the rule of law. Neither do criminal aliens.

Well - not national boundary laws - but they DO commit half the violence, and a QUARTER the property crime and theft of American born citizens. So there's that.

I don't think that this administration is doing enough to stop the terrorists. Just yesterday an ICE vehicle was blocked by 10 vehicles, while one of those vehicles rammed the ICE vehicle. One of the terrorists was found to be armed with a semiautomatic firearm.

It's interesting how MAGA supporters are starting to adopt Trump's paranoia and definitions of things.
Did you know you had done that?

Terrorism is "the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims."
It's about inflicting terror on the people. 9/11 and the London Bombings are terrorism.

This is obstruction. I'm going to define obstruction as "the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against government agencies perceived to be illegitimate, in the pursuit of crowd justice."
It's about inflicting inconvenience on the government.

In the same way, your attempt at brushing aside Sociology 101 about Trump's "othering" as "hyperbole" fails. I think you need to brush up on some definitions of these things.

His behaviour is textbook othering. He was trained by Roy Cohn - one of McCarthy's apprentices back in the "Reds under the bed" scare of the 1950's. It's textbook. Now - I'm not saying Trump is going to succeed in overthrowing American democracy! I'm not saying he's smart enough to actually achieve that. But the effort is there.

If I had said "Trump will overthrow democracy" that would be hyperbole. But that I give it a 5% chance of actually happening? I'm not sure that is hyperbole. Some I talk to think that's even hyperbole the other way - in hoping and assuming American democracy will survive this period!

 

[HARK!]

Sigh. Don't pretend you don't know what I'm talking about. Trump's constant foaming-at-the-mouth rants about illegal immigrants all eating the dogs, being rapists, etc. The way he rants.

He has been dog-whistling to racism. Or - in recent years - maybe not even that?
"Trump has put down his racist dog whistle and picked up a bull horn"
https://theconversation.com/trump-has-put-down-his-racist-dog-whistle-and-picked-up-a-bull-horn-176523'

I followed the link to the source of your vitriol; and here is what I found: