At least two students shot in active shooter situation at Evergreen High School

[rjs330]

The inevitable conclusion from this logic is that Americans are uniquely more evil than all other people.

This particular problem is uniquely American; and if guns have nothing to do with it, and if it is solely a matter of the human condition, then we must--by necessity--conclude that Americans are uniquely and especially evil.

-CryptoLutheran

Maybe there IS an evil that is rising in America. Maybe there us something happening in America that is doing more to radicalized people into believing violence is the answer. "I killed a white girl" was said by a mm and who used a knife. A radical used a molatove cocktail. People have used cars. Yes guns are a very efficient tool. We can't deny that.

The only way to stop gun violence is to get rid of ALL guns. Remove every gun from this country. That would do it.

But the rise in radicalization and seeing violence as the answer is the ROOT cause. And until that gets addressed, the violence will continue.

 

[DaisyDay]

Im talking the big picture. This incident of evil is not isolated. Something is happening in the country. Its a rise of evil. And while the majority of it is happening in our inner cities it's a violence that is rising.

So you’re contending that the most violence occurs where the most people are? Sounds reasonable - more people, more violence.

But violence actually seems to be falling in the cities somehow, not rising. Most school shootings, for some reason, do not take place in the inner cities. That’s why your conflation seems a bit of a stretch.

Who is celebrated in our popular culture? Very often it is the one who solves problems with violence. There are occasional heroes such as Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela, etc who glorify peaceful means but offhand I can’t think of any series or blockbuster movies that do, can you?

Is American culture evil? While a case can certainly be made, I don’t think so. I also don’t think the left is evil as too many here have argued nor do I think that the right is. But we can do better.

 

[iluvatar5150]

But violence actually seems to be falling in the cities somehow, not rising. Most school shootings, for some reason, do not take place in the inner cities.

This may be merely selection bias, but a disproportionate number of the ones that come to my attention seem to happen in Denver suburbs.

 

[durangodawood]

Its not the guns, its the people. We are seeing that the evil within man's heart is leading them to these heinous acts. I don't think we can deny that guns makes it easier for these evil prople to carry out their wicked plans. The gun is the tool they use. The acts start and end with the person. As we have seen evil people will use whatever tool us available, guns, knives, molatove cocktails and vehicles.

1/3 of College students believe its okay to use violence to stop speakers from speaking on campus. There is a rise in acceptance of political violence. Violent radicalism is on the rise. We have fliers with pictures of Charlie Kirk bleeding out that read "Debate This", We have people writing on a wall at a Seattle college "kill all Charlie Kirks".

It sounds like this shooter at the high school was radicalized by something on line.

Ive said it before, the only way to stop people from dying by gun is to remove every gun. I mean every gun, all of them with no exceptions. People were killed with a revolver. Kirk was killed with a bolt action rifle.

But the TRUE problem isnt the gun. You know this.

I would agree that character drives actions, like murder.

But then we'd have to conclude that Americans have significantly worse character on average than many other countries where we dont see murder occuring as often. What do you make of that?

 

[essentialsaltes]

‘Radicalized’ Evergreen High School shooter appeared to hold antisemitic, violent views in online accounts
Social media accounts that appear to be connected to shooter Desmond Holly are littered with references to mass shootings and antisemitic views, The Denver Post found.

The accounts also include references to Holocaust denial, and the name of one of the accounts appeared to end with a reference to a prominent white supremacist slogan. That account reposted several videos showing school shooting scenes from movies, as well as another video that appeared to show the two Columbine shooters taking target shots at bowling pins. Other videos the account reposted were explicitly antisemitic or depicted people in Nazi uniforms.

 

[JosephZ]

Evergreen High School shooter embraced Columbine, antisemitism and white supremacy online

The 16-year-old boy accused of shooting two classmates at Evergreen High School on Wednesday before fatally shooting himself embraced conspiratorial, antisemitic and white supremacist social media content, according to a review by The Colorado Sun.

Desmond Holly also reposted TikToks about the 1999 Columbine High School shooting and posed wearing a T-shirt with the word “WRATH” on it, which is what shooter Eric Harris wore as he carried out the Columbine attack.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Jinx!

 

[rambot]

Are we giving in to evil? Far too many people are displaying an evil that I haven't seen before. Evil is running rampant in our inner cities. Evil is using
guns and knives and would most certainly use any other tool available. Something dark is happening in this country. Its almost like Evil is seeing a growth of opposition and is fighting back. The enemy is roaming among us seeking to devour us.

People, it is NOT THE GUNS. It is the people. There is something wrong. Terribly wrong. The heart of man is exceedingly wicked.

But do you see that if THOSE people didn't have guns it would be MUCH harder for them to kill as much.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Maybe there IS an evil that is rising in America. Maybe there us something happening in America that is doing more to radicalized people into believing violence is the answer. "I killed a white girl" was said by a mm and who used a knife. A radical used a molatove cocktail. People have used cars. Yes guns are a very efficient tool. We can't deny that.

The only way to stop gun violence is to get rid of ALL guns. Remove every gun from this country. That would do it.

But the rise in radicalization and seeing violence as the answer is the ROOT cause. And until that gets addressed, the violence will continue.

I'm all for addressing root causes of extremism and radicalization.

You're right, if there are no guns at all, and if it is literally impossible for nobody to have a gun or gain access to one, then that would stop all gun violence. That is, of course, impossible and isn't going to happen. Nor am I aware of anyone who seriously suggests it.

But I do think that we can mitigate gun violence without having to "get rid of ALL guns".

It's not as though guns sprout legs and kill people all on their own, of course it happens because the human heart is "deceitful above all else and desperately sick, who can understand it?" But that is precisely why we have laws. Because a lawless society isn't a society, it's a game of king of the hill where the losers are bloodied bodies at the bottom of the hill.

Addressing the problem of gun violence in America is going to require comprehensive work--and one area of work is a significant change in our national relationship with firearms. There is no way forward toward a better future for our children and grandchildren without that.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[rjs330]

So you’re contending that the most violence occurs where the most people are? Sounds reasonable - more people, more violence.

So you admit that most violence happens in the inner cities.

But violence actually seems to be falling in the cities somehow, not rising. Most school shootings, for some reason, do not take place in the inner cities. That’s why your conflation seems a bit of a stretch.

Most violence happens mostly in the inner cities. Bigger picture.

Who is celebrated in our popular culture? Very often it is the one who solves problems with violence. There are occasional heroes such as Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela, etc who glorify peaceful means but offhand I can’t think of any series or blockbuster movies that do, can you?

Yeah like the left who.celebrates the CEO murderer. Or school shooters who celebrate other school shooters. They aren't trying to emulate Jason Statham.

Is American culture evil? While a case can certainly be made, I don’t think so. I also don’t think the left is evil as too many here have argued nor do I think that the right is. But we can do better.

No I certainly do not think American culture is evil. But I think there are subject cultures that are. That radicalize people into believing violence is the answer or violence is justified.

No, the left isnt evil and neither is the right. But there are radical elements on each side that are. And from what Ive seen in regard to Kirk and the Catholic school shootings the left is sliding further towards the radical end of the spectrum.

 

[rjs330]

But then we'd have to conclude that Americans have significantly worse character on average than many other countries where we dont see murder occuring as often. What do you make of that?

Perhaps there is a case to be made that America has a larger percentage of people with poor character than other countries. Like Japan for example. I mean we have a higher crime rate than Russia.

We are pretty close to Sweden and Belgium.

While our murder rate is also equal with Russia as well and significantly higher that Sweden or Japan etc.

So I think we can say that there is a lot of poor character going on in America.

 

[rjs330]

Evergreen High School shooter embraced Columbine, antisemitism and white supremacy online

The 16-year-old boy accused of shooting two classmates at Evergreen High School on Wednesday before fatally shooting himself embraced conspiratorial, antisemitic and white supremacist social media content, according to a review by The Colorado Sun.

Desmond Holly also reposted TikToks about the 1999 Columbine High School shooting and posed wearing a T-shirt with the word “WRATH” on it, which is what shooter Eric Harris wore as he carried out the Columbine attack.

Another kid radicalized by extremists. Probably on line. Seems that's where kids are going these days.

 

[rjs330]

But do you see that if THOSE people didn't have guns it would be MUCH harder for them to kill as much.

Yes I do see it and posted that exact thing. The only way to stop.gun violence is to remove ALL the guns. And I mean all of them. Recently revolvers and Bolt action rifles have been used.

 

[rjs330]

That is, of course, impossible and isn't going to happen. Nor am I aware of anyone who seriously suggests it.

Why is that impossible? Ither countries have done it. Or at least came VERY close to it.

But I do think that we can mitigate gun violence without having to "get rid of ALL guns".

No it will continue to happen. All it takes is for one person. With a will to kill to obtain one and its a done deal. A determined killer will fet ine unless remove them all. As has been pointed out over and over again that there are no gun laws that would have prevented any of these killings. Its undisputed.

But that is precisely why we have laws. Because a lawless society isn't a society, it's a game of king of the hill where the losers are bloodied bodies at the bottom of the hill.

There are NO laws that would have prevented any of these killings. Name a law that would have done so. Only the removal of guns would have done so.

There is no way forward toward a better future for our children and grandchildren without that.

So let's get rid of them.
..

 

[DaisyDay]

So you admit that most violence happens in the inner cities.

I didn't say "inner cities" as I don't know. I don't deny that it happens in cities. I also know that people who don't live there come to the cities to commit violence, as Rittenhouse famously did and as the Proud Boys (stand back and stand by) are known to do.

Most violence happens mostly in the inner cities. Bigger picture.

I don't know that that is true, but it might be; nearly every school mass shooting does not. Include that in your picture.

Yeah like the left who.celebrates the CEO murderer.

That is nothing other than a smear against the left. I don't know anyone who celebrated - most just shrugged while not condoning the murder. A lot of people on the right, who have also been burned by insurance companies, also shrugged. A lot of people in the center also shrugged. A lot of people who are non-political also shrugged. I don't know anyone who celebrated, on any side. Maybe your acquaintances are more bloodthirsty?

Or school shooters who celebrate other school shooters.

This is common, sad to say.

They aren't trying to emulate Jason Statham.

Who? Is he someone who glorifies other forms of violence?

No I certainly do not think American culture is evil. But I think there are subject cultures that are. That radicalize people into believing violence is the answer or violence is justified.

That seems to be rife on the internet which is certainly not concentrated in the cities.

No, the left isnt evil and neither is the right.

I agree, but this past week in particular, way too many posters here have claimed the left is evil while I didn't see a single instance of poster claiming the right is evil. Do you deny that our culture glorifies violence?

But there are radical elements on each side that are. And from what Ive seen in regard to Kirk and the Catholic school shootings the left is sliding further towards the radical end of the spectrum.

What I've seen is the opposite. I've seen people who appear to have been waiting for an incident for the excuse to come out demonizing the left. Some came out swinging at transgendered people as well. Confirmation bias? Possibly, but I don't think so.

 

[Hans Blaster]

...and then there's this recent case...wherein someone said something.....

SEATTLE (AP) — A 13-year-old boy who police said appeared to be fixated on school shooters was arrested on charges of unlawful firearms possession and making a threat after they say they found social media posts about intentions to kill and seized 23 guns and ammunition from his home.

Police say they seized 23 guns from the home of a 13-year-old who appeared to idolize mass shooters

Police have arrested a 13-year-old boy in Washington on charges of causing a threat and unlawful possession of a firearm.

apnews.com

There is social contagion among the youth of potential school shooters. A rather disturbing number of the shooting that are perpetrated more recently show strong identification with previous shooters. This includes the one at the parochial school in the Twin Cities a couple weeks ago.

 

[Desk trauma]

But do you see that if THOSE people didn't have guns it would be MUCH harder for them to kill as much.

Have to embrace the double think. All weapons are equally effective, have the same learning curve and ease of use as firearms. If someone wants to kill they will do so with the same level of lethality regardless of having guns or not.

Also.

Guns are the most effective and easy to use tool for self and home defense. People must have access to them and cannot be expected to use other less effective tools.

 

[durangodawood]

Have to embrace the double think. All weapons are equally effective, have the same learning curve and ease of use as firearms. If someone wants to kill they will do so with the same level of lethality regardless of having guns or not.

Also.

Guns are the most effective and easy to use tool for self and home defense. People must have access to them and cannot be expected to use other less effective tools.

Ive noticed over the years, pro gun people invoke the absolute dumbest arguments.

Not that all their arguments are dumb. But the general notion that theres no public safety discussion to be had about the availability of various objects is just absurd. Its a zombie argument with working legs but no brain.

 

[durangodawood]

Perhaps there is a case to be made that America has a larger percentage of people with poor character than other countries. Like Japan for example. I mean we have a higher crime rate than Russia.

Higher than Russia? Maybe. But what what does "crime" even mean in a mafia-state?

We are pretty close to Sweden and Belgium.

While our murder rate is also equal with Russia as well and significantly higher that Sweden or Japan etc.

So I think we can say that there is a lot of poor character going on in America.

Maybe as a nation we are not "adult" enough to manage the responsibility thats supposed to attach to firearm ownership?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Why is that impossible? Ither countries have done it. Or at least came VERY close to it.

I'm not aware of a single country that has gotten rid of all guns. Even where guns are otherwise banned, firearms for the purpose of hunting are still permitted.

The statement in reference to all guns. Not a generalized firearm ban. As such my statement of impossible refers to that.

There are millions of guns in the US. The idea that each and every single one of them can be accounted for and removed is perhaps not, strictly speaking, impossible. It is, however, incredibly improbable.

No it will continue to happen. All it takes is for one person. With a will to kill to obtain one and its a done deal. A determined killer will fet ine unless remove them all. As has been pointed out over and over again that there are no gun laws that would have prevented any of these killings. Its undisputed.

Notice that I was speaking about mitigating gun violence. The idea that stricter gun laws will completely eradicate gun violence is, as far as I'm aware, a position nobody takes; and therefore arguing against it is merely striking at a straw man. Even a full on gun ban wouldn't eradicate gun violence.

But, and this is crucial, stricter gun laws and guardrails would, indeed, mitigate gun violence. And we have real world examples of this being effective.

This isn't a zero sum game. It's not either completely eradicate all gun violence OR throw our hands up and do nothing.

There are NO laws that would have prevented any of these killings. Name a law that would have done so. Only the removal of guns would have done so.

So let's get rid of them.
..

Making it harder to acquire a firearm, especially for those with a track record of mental health problems, wouldn't have prevented any gun deaths?

I can't name a law that doesn't exist.

But what evidence do you have that stricter gun laws wouldn't have prevented any killings? How did you reach that conclusion? The data I would point to in favor of stricter gun laws reducing gun violence is the fact that this has worked in other countries.

So the evidence in favor of gun law reform having a positive net effect on the reduction of gun violence is solid; the evidence that it would do precisely nil is....?

What is your evidence for your claim?

-CryptoLutheran