How is it that the Catholic Church is evil?

[Amo2]

So? So is the Doctrine concerning the Trinity. So are the doctrines relating to Christology. You're barking up a tree that has been cut down centuries ago.

Yes they are, and they should be examined for authenticity by holy scripture, in regard to their truthfulness or not.

 

[concretecamper]

Yes they are, and they should be examined for authenticity by holy scripture, in regard to their truthfulness or not.

You mean for the authenticity according to how you interpret Scripture. We've all been here before.

 

[Hentenza]

No one has been able to prove that all divine revelation must be included in the Bible. So stop claiming "it's extra biblical"

Read your catechism on inspiration and truth of sacred scripture.

 

[concretecamper]

Read your catechism on inspiration and truth of sacred scripture.

Thank you for being just one more in aline of many who cannot prove it .

 

[Hentenza]

Thank you for being just one more in aline of many who cannot prove it .

So you didn’t look. Mmmmm…..

 

[concretecamper]

So you didn’t look. Mmmmm…..

If you think you know something, let's hear it. Otherwise, take your lumps and go on to the next thread.

 

[Hentenza]

If you think you know something, let's here it. Otherwise, take your lumps and go on to the next thread.

So you didn’t read it. Your own catechism only states that scripture is inspired. If you would have looked it up you would have known that.

 

[concretecamper]

So you didn’t read it. Your own catechism only states that scripture is inspired. If you would have looked it up you would have known that.

You are incorrect. So I guess it means next thread . Gotta love these armchair Catholics.

 

[Hentenza]

You are incorrect. So I guess it means next thread . Gotta love these armchair Catholics.

And yet no real reply from you. Show me where in your own Catechism does it show that anything other than Sacred Scriptures is inspired.

 

[The Liturgist]

I'm not asking you to believe my claims, which is exactly why I quote so very many sources and will continue to do so.

The problem being the sources you quote are sources which have been shown to be unreliable.

If you are objecting to Roman Catholic doctrine, I would argue you shouldn’t even be talking about their history. And if you are writing about ecclesiastical history, you need to be citing a robust array of sources. Professional historians will quote Catholics, Protestants and third party witnesses and cite archaeological evidence.

By using a robust methodology, you can avoid obvious errors like the claim the Romans killed 100-200 million people in the Middle Ages, which is a problematic claim since that exceeds the population of Western Europe during that timeframe, and also exceeds the combined bodycount of the genocides of Hitler, Stalin and Mao, and thus it is difficult to accept such an extreme claim with credulity. I do recognize you are not the first to make that claim, but are rather repeating what you have read; what I am urging you to do is to not merely repeat what you have read from sources you feel are friendly towards your denomination, but rather engage in a robust dialogue with the historical material.

 

[The Liturgist]

Wow. So you really do basically consider Mary to be basically God. So be it.

How do you figure?

God, who is omnipotent and exists outside time, decided for our Salvation to become Man.

Thus, He, in the person of the Holy Spirit, impregnated a virgin, carefully selected for she was descended from the most important Patriarchs and Prophets of the Old Testament, to fulfill the prophecy, so our Lord would be descended from King David, and she gave birth to Him, in the person of the Word.

Since Jesus Christ is God, it is impossible for the Blessed Virgin Mary, who is not God, to have given birth to Jesus Christ without giving birth to God.

No one is claiming that the Blessed Virgin Mary gave birth to the Trinity. We say of the Trinity that the Father is unoriginate, and the Son and the Holy Spirit are uncreated, the Son begotten of the Father before all ages, and the Spirit proceeding from the Father. Western Christians also usually add that the Spirit proceeds from the Son as well; this is an issue which we don’t need to get into now, because what matters is the idea that the Father is unoriginate and outside of time begat but did not create the Only Begotten Son and Word of God, Jesus Christ, who is discussed in John 1:1-18, who bears the image of the Father, so that no one can see the Father and live, except through seeing Christ our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Our beloved Lutheran friends @MarkRohfrietsch @Ain't Zwinglian and @ViaCrucis have explained this issue quite well on a number of occasions, as has our beloved Anglican friend @Jipsah and our beloved Catholic friends @Xeno.of.athens and @RileyG and @chevyontheriver and our beloved Orthodox friends @prodromos and @FenderTL5

+

Also, in the specific case of the Blessed Virgin Mary and the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches, we can use the feast being celebrated today in many of them, that of the Nativity of the Theotokos, to prove that we do not regard her as God but as a human being God selected to be His human mother, for if she were God, we would not venerate her parents Saints Joachim and Anna, both humans.

Additionaly, the Feast of the Assumption or Dormition, which was just celebrated (at the end of July by the Armenians, on August 22nd by the Copts, and on August 15th by everyone else, albeit some being on the Julian calendar, so the celebration was on August the 28th, further proves that we do not worship the Theotokos as a God, because the feast celebrates the fact that after the Blessed Virgin Mary reposed, she was miraculously taken up into Heaven bodily. But she did die, and this proves that she is not God but rather is a blessed woman, who all generations will call blessed (which I believe is what my friend @Valletta was also referring to, that since the Gospel of Luke is inspired by God, Luke was correct in saying recording her saying all generations would call her blessed in the hymn known as the Magnificat. At the same time, her extreme holiness, for the fact she was chosen by God to be His mother in His incarnation as Jesus Christ, warranted her being taken into heaven like St. Moses and St. Elijah and St. Enoch.

 

[concretecamper]

And yet no real reply from you. Show me where in your own Catechism does it show that anything other than Sacred Scriptures is inspired.

Anyone want to come to @Hentenza rescue? Buehler? Buehler?

 

[The Liturgist]

You mean for the authenticity according to how you interpret Scripture. We've all been here before.

One interesting thing is that some denominations appear to teach their members that their interpretation of Scripture is the only obvious one, whereas we admit that there are sections of scripture that can readily be misinterpreted. But those denominations which convince their members that only their interpretation is obvious are really doing something I disagree with, since what they are doing is creating a belief that people people who disagree with their doctrines are disagreeing with scripture, when this is not the case.

The early church fathers recognized the obvious fact that Scripture could be interpreted in a multitude of different ways, as did the Holy Apostle Peter when he declared no prophecy is an exposition of itself in 2 Peter. This is why St. Isidore of Seville, who we venerate in the Orthodox Church just as you venerate him in the Roman church, said that Scripture is not in the reading but the interpretation.

 

[Hentenza]

Anyone want to come to @Hentenza rescue? Buehler? Buehler?

Show me where in your catechism does it say that other than scriptures anything else is inspired. Do you have an answer or just looking for a lifeline? It should be simple for you.

 

[prodromos]

Along with all of the other extra biblical teaching and practice in relation to Mary, who is not and will not ever be the mother of God. Who was the mother of the man Jesus Christ, certainly not the great I am, of holy scripture. She had no part in the divine nature of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, who always has been, island always will be by virtue of the immortality which god alone has. Which He alone can impart to anyone

So according to you, Mary is the mother of the man, Jesus Christ, but not the mother of the divine, Jesus Christ? So how is your belief different from the heresy of Nestorianism?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Wow. So you really do basically consider Mary to be basically God. So be it.

No. It means that God became flesh (Jesus) in Mary's womb. God, who is Eternal, became flesh in time, by being conceived in the womb of Mary, thereby becoming her Child. God became Mary's Child in the Incarnation.

If Jesus is God.
And if Mary gave birth to Jesus.
Then Mary gave birth to God.

It's not rocket science. Mary is an ordinary human being, not divine in any way. But she became God's mother when God became flesh.

This is basic biblical Christianity.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Hentenza]

No. It means that God became flesh (Jesus) in Mary's womb. God, who is Eternal, became flesh in time, by being conceived in the womb of Mary, thereby becoming her Child. God became Mary's Child in the Incarnation.

If Jesus is God.
And if Mary gave birth to Jesus.
Then Mary gave birth to God.

It's not rocket science. Mary is an ordinary human being, not divine in any way. But she became God's mother when God became flesh.

This is basic biblical Christianity.

-CryptoLutheran

If Jesus is human
and Mary gave birth to Jesus
Then Mary gave birth to the human Jesus.

You can’t have it both ways. Mary did indeed give birth to the godliness of Jesus but she also gave birth to the human portion of Jesus. To argue differently would be to fall into heresy.

 

[prodromos]

Jesus is God, because He is the Son of the Father, who is Divine.
Jesus is man because He is the son of Mary, who is human.
Jesus is one person with two natures, the human and the divine.
Mothers give birth to persons, they do not give birth simply to natures, and since the person she gave birth to is God, it follows that from the moment He was conceived in Mary's womb, Mary became the mother of God.

 

[prodromos]

Then Mary gave birth to the human Jesus.

Mary gave birth to the God-man Jesus.
You don't seem to understand that "mother of God" is a christological title defending the Incarnation.

 

[Hentenza]

Mary gave birth to the God-man Jesus.

Yep. Both natures not just one.