Dismantling Judeo-Christian values in America

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Where did Jesus say all power would belong to non Christians? Do you believe this is a mandate? That those in power are not called to faith?

1 John 5:19
We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

John 14:30-31
I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, 31 but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.

John 16:11 "and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned."


i can go on and on , but you get the point.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Well I'll ask you the same question Faith couldn't answer. Was it better for the Armenians to be out of power and subjects of the Ottomans than to be in power and have a measure of sovereignty over themselves? Are Christians to remain a perpetual Dhimmi class?

This is what occurs when people move away from scripture and focus more on hypotheticals.

Would things be different if the Ottoman Empire had ruled America? I'm not sure, but I doubt it would have been significantly better, even under a divinely appointed leader.

How do I know that? because bibles says so.



1 Samuel 8 : 7-21

“. 7 The Lord told Samuel, “Listen to everything the people are saying to you. They haven’t rejected you; they’ve rejected me. 8 They’re doing just what they’ve done since I took them out of Egypt—leaving me and serving other gods. 9 Listen to them now, but be sure to warn them and tell them about the rights of a king.”

10 Then Samuel told the people who had asked him for a king everything the Lord had said. 11 Samuel said, “These are the rights of a king:

He will draft your sons, make them serve on his chariots and horses, and make them run ahead of his chariots.

12 He will appoint them to be his officers over 1,000 or over 50 soldiers, to plow his ground and harvest his crops, and to make weapons and equipment for his chariots.

13 He will take your daughters and have them make perfumes, cook, and bake.

14 He will take the best of your fields, vineyards, and olive orchards and give them to his officials.

15 He will take a tenth of your grain and wine and give it to his aids and officials.

16 He will take your male and female slaves, your best cattle,[a] and your donkeys for his own use.

17 He will take a tenth of your flocks.

In addition, you will be his servants.

18 “When that day comes, you will cry out because of the king whom you have chosen for yourselves. The Lord will not answer you when that day comes.”

19 But the people refused to listen to Samuel. They said, “No, we want a king! 20 Then we, too, will be like all the other nations. Our king will judge us, lead us out ⌞to war⌟, and fight our battles.”

21 When Samuel heard everything the people had to say, he reported it privately to the Lord. 22 The Lord told him, “Listen to them, and give them a king.”

Then Samuel told the people of Israel, “Go ⌞back⌟ to your own cities.”

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Let's say there are Muslims among us who want to have their polygamy recognized legally, do Christians have to defer to Muslims and recognize their marriages?

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world ( World=Muslim, Pagen , Hindu, atheist, homosexual, lesbian, liberal, Buddhist, LGBTQXYZWERm Blasphemer) that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Do you think Jesus would punish polygamy of Muslims? No, he would say come to me , I will give you eternal life.

 

[A New Dawn]

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world ( World=Muslim, Pagen , Hindu, atheist, homosexual, lesbian, liberal, Buddhist, LGBTQXYZWERm Blasphemer) that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Do you think Jesus would punish polygamy of Muslims? No, he would say come to me , I will give you eternal life.

To be fair, all those who do not come to Christ are receiving wrath on judgement day. All people who are saved, including Muslims who come to Jesus, have to put away their sins because they are grievous to God. So I believe your response is incomplete.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world ( World=Muslim, Pagen , Hindu, atheist, homosexual, lesbian, liberal, Buddhist, LGBTQXYZWERm Blasphemer) that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Do you think Jesus would punish polygamy of Muslims? No, he would say come to me , I will give you eternal life.

So we should legally tolerate polygamy?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

This is what occurs when people move away from scripture and focus more on hypotheticals.

Would things be different if the Ottoman Empire had ruled America? I'm not sure, but I doubt it would have been significantly better, even under a divinely appointed leader.

How do I know that? because bibles says so.



1 Samuel 8 : 7-21

“. 7 The Lord told Samuel, “Listen to everything the people are saying to you. They haven’t rejected you; they’ve rejected me. 8 They’re doing just what they’ve done since I took them out of Egypt—leaving me and serving other gods. 9 Listen to them now, but be sure to warn them and tell them about the rights of a king.”

10 Then Samuel told the people who had asked him for a king everything the Lord had said. 11 Samuel said, “These are the rights of a king:

He will draft your sons, make them serve on his chariots and horses, and make them run ahead of his chariots.

12 He will appoint them to be his officers over 1,000 or over 50 soldiers, to plow his ground and harvest his crops, and to make weapons and equipment for his chariots.

13 He will take your daughters and have them make perfumes, cook, and bake.

14 He will take the best of your fields, vineyards, and olive orchards and give them to his officials.

15 He will take a tenth of your grain and wine and give it to his aids and officials.

16 He will take your male and female slaves, your best cattle,[a] and your donkeys for his own use.

17 He will take a tenth of your flocks.

In addition, you will be his servants.

18 “When that day comes, you will cry out because of the king whom you have chosen for yourselves. The Lord will not answer you when that day comes.”

19 But the people refused to listen to Samuel. They said, “No, we want a king! 20 Then we, too, will be like all the other nations. Our king will judge us, lead us out ⌞to war⌟, and fight our battles.”

21 When Samuel heard everything the people had to say, he reported it privately to the Lord. 22 The Lord told him, “Listen to them, and give them a king.”

Then Samuel told the people of Israel, “Go ⌞back⌟ to your own cities.”

You are incapable of actually giving practical advice on how to live life. Why should I listen to you when you are indifferent to genocide? Do you not know anything about the Armenians that you confuse them with Americans? Was it better they all died? Answer the question. Stop running away from answering.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

1 John 5:19
We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

John 14:30-31
I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, 31 but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.

John 16:11 "and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned."


i can go on and on , but you get the point.

So practically Christians are a serf and slave class for you right? We are not permitted to have any kind of power or worldly authority? This is your position right?

 

[jmldn2]

This nation was based upon the Creator and the rights He gave us as His creation. That is the reason mankind was created, formed and is blessed by Almighty God. This is the main reason God has blessed this country and blessed we are

 

[ralliann]

In my opinion based on my interpretation of Scripture on the whole, governments and their policies are established by none other than God, Himself.
We abide in His Kingdome and no earthly power can touch that.
I think it was wrong for our early founders to try to establish a "Christian" nation.
He blesses us according to our own, personal relationship with Him and where we abide has no part.
That's the world.

The founding fathers did not try to establish a Christian nation. Rubbish. They founded a democratic republic, and freecom OF religion,,,,,OR NOT. They set up government with A biblical view of the nature of man being corruptible by power, sinful, And even evil.....therefore term limits, different branches of government to balance out power. Government set in place by the people to do their bidding.

 

[A New Dawn]

The founding fathers did not try to establish a Christian nation. Rubbish. They founded a democratic republic, and freecom OF religion,,,,,OR NOT. They set up government with A biblical view of the nature of man being corruptible by power, sinful, And even evil.....therefore term limits, different branches of government to balance out power. Government set in place by the people to do their bidding.

The founding fathers founded a Constitutional Republic. Democracy is not part of our union except as a way to elect our representatives. They knew the pitfalls of democracy, it first turns into bullying mob rule, then devolves into communism, and wanted to steer as far away from it as they could.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

You are incapable of actually giving practical advice on how to live life. Why should I listen to you when you are indifferent to genocide? Do you not know anything about the Armenians that you confuse them with Americans? Was it better they all died? Answer the question. Stop running away from answering.

Do you believe that the God who created heaven and earth lacked the power to save the Armenians, or the 30,000 Protestants in France between 1562-1598 from the Catholic pope? Could God not have saved the Christians killed under Catholic Queen Mary in Scotland by the order of Pope? I am sure God could have saved all these Christians in Armenia , or in France or Scotland.

What about the Thirty Years' War between Catholics and Protestant reformers? Could God have prevented the deaths of nearly 8 million German Catholics and Protestants?

The Eighty Years' War between Dutch Reformers and Spanish Catholics resulted in the deaths of nearly 100,000 Christians. Could a greater emphasis on worship God in their heart, rather than attempts to impose religious beliefs on others, have prevented this loss of life?

Reflecting on history, it is possible that some conflicts in Europe might have been avoided under secular leadership over the past 2000 years. Disputes between Catholic and Protestant groups, as well as laws influenced by religious beliefs, contributed to significant unrest during this period.

How is that for a “practical advice on how to live life”?

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

So we should legally tolerate polygamy?

Do you know what Jesus said ?

He said

Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

So practically Christians are a serf and slave class for you right? We are not permitted to have any kind of power or worldly authority? This is your position right?

YES . you are 100% right!

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

YES . you are 100% right!

You are simply wrong. It seems to me that since God has given Christians in the past power and authority that not all Christians are called to be a serf and subservient class, therefore we can act in our own political interest. We do not have to find the nearest non believer and have them rule over us.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Do you know what Jesus said ?

He said

Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

How does that answer my question? Should we legally tolerate Islamic Polygamy?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Do you believe that the God who created heaven and earth lacked the power to save the Armenians, or the 30,000 Protestants in France between 1562-1598 from the Catholic pope? Could God not have saved the Christians killed under Catholic Queen Mary in Scotland by the order of Pope? I am sure God could have saved all these Christians in Armenia , or in France or Scotland.

Do I believe God lacked the power? No. But then do i believe thr Armenians had no alternative but to accept genocide because apparently the Armenians ruling over themselves is worse than a genocide? Absolutely not.

What about the Thirty Years' War between Catholics and Protestant reformers? Could God have prevented the deaths of nearly 8 million German Catholics and Protestants?

What about the thirty years war? Are you using that war as a pretext to suggest Christians shouldn't be in power? I don't understand it's relevance here.

The Eighty Years' War between Dutch Reformers and Spanish Catholics resulted in the deaths of nearly 100,000 Christians. Could a greater emphasis on worship God in their heart, rather than attempts to impose religious beliefs on others, have prevented this loss of life?

Alright and? They Spanish and ths Dutch fought for what they believed in. Do you think only religion has caused war? What about Liberal democracy? Communism? National Socialism? Should we abandon all ideologies because they have had wars fought over them? What about times when we as Christians fought justified wars like Alfred's recapture of Wessex from Viking occupation? Or is it the duty of Christians to surrender to the enemy as soon as they demand capitulation?

Reflecting on history, it is possible that some conflicts in Europe might have been avoided under secular leadership over the past 2000 years. Disputes between Catholic and Protestant groups, as well as laws influenced by religious beliefs, contributed to significant unrest during this period.

So you're of the opinion that Christianity has mostly been a destructive force historically responsible for more evil than good? What makes Christianity particularly vile in your opinion? What makes Atheism a superior belief for governing?

How is that for a “practical advice on how to live life”?

Well it's not practical advice because it doesn't tell the Armenians what to do and at worst thag they were wrong to resist the genocide against them and desire some measure of autonomy. You have a lot to say about the evil you perceive in Christianity, as if our history had been one of unmitigated suffering and destruction. It's like im talking to a New Atheist if I'm being honest because you seem to have this assumption that Christianity in power is just bad, without exception. No good has come of this. Never mind the fact that Europe spread and preserved the Gospel and without that it's unlikely either of us would be Christians today.

Do you believe true Christianity faded from the world after Constantine? Do you consider thr rise of non belief a good thing since it apparently is better at forming societies?

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

You are simply wrong. It seems to me that since God has given Christians in the past power and authority that not all Christians are called to be a serf and subservient class, therefore we can act in our own political interest. We do not have to find the nearest non believer and have them rule over us.

Can you support this with biblical scripture, church teaching, doctrine, or creed?

Or is this your opinion?

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Never mind the fact that Europe spread and preserved the Gospel and without that it's unlikely either of us would be Christians today.

Do you believe true Christianity faded from the world after Constantine? Do you consider thr rise of non belief a good thing since it apparently is better at forming societies?

Christianity did not originate or initially spread through Europeans. It began in the Middle East with a Jew named Jesus, followed by another Jew named Paul, who later brought the gospel to non-Jews in parts of Asia and Europe.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

How does that answer my question? Should we legally tolerate Islamic Polygamy?

We tell Muslim , come to Jesus , he has eternal life. We tell Muslim , Jesus loves you and Jesus wants you to have eternal life.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Can you support this with biblical scripture, church teaching, doctrine, or creed?

Or is this your opinion?

It is my opinion but one rooted in theology and history. I am not a Protestant and I actually value the lives of Christians before me and consider their experience in what it is we should do today.

The bible itself, the New Testament in particular, gives no explicit instructions on how Christians may interact with the political and when we see the few references to the political we see deference to ruling authorities. Nor do we see that the Gospel is only for a certain class of serfs and slaves. It is for all people's, the poor, the rich and educated and even Kings.

Can you provide anywhere within the bible that a Ruler can't believe in Jesus Christ?