Does the "reign in the influence of Israel" movement need a Tucker Carlson to be credible?

[Hans Blaster]

If you don't believe Jesus' statement—"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away"—is as true now as it was 2,000 years ago, we won't agree on Biblical texts.

There was no Israel in the time of Jesus.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I went back and looked at your OP, you mention Tucker Carlson as a potential "ally" to this movement. Tucker isn't grabbing any signs to protest in the street. To the extent that some active protestors (but not all) share your need for narrative, it is not every on the street (and never was) and even less so among those who consider themselves politically active on the topic of Israel-Palestine. I don't know why you can't meet your fellow posters concerned about Palestine where we actually are, rather than projecting other opinions onto them.

Correct, I was highlighting Tucker as someone who is critical of Israel and our interventions (but is still very pro capitalism, pro west) in contrast to the kinds of folks that show up at the protests.

For half of the population (regardless of how superficial or petty is sounds)

Seeing a group of people out there in hammer & sickle shirts with rainbow hair and a Keffiyeh, flying an Islamist flag (who just so happen to look a lot like the people who've showed up at every protest for just about every other cause that attributes all of the world's ills to western capitalism/patriarchy/corporations/racism/etc)

They're going to see that and just assume "it's those silly woke people getting bent out of shape over something their humanities professor told them again just like the last 5 things"

However, they will listen to Tucker.
A) because he already has a track record with them
B) he's not constantly pointing the finger at "western imperialism" for every issue that comes along, so it's not going to have the "boy who cried wolf" effect when he says it
C) they'll see it as more of a stand alone issue to be taken seriously because there won't be any speculation that's it's part of some broader progressive political agenda

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

There was no Israel in the time of Jesus.

Are we talking about Isreal or are we talking about Biblical text. ?

Do you consider that biblical texts, whether composed 1,800 years ago or 2,800 years ago, are inspired by God and have remained unchanged? I don’t think you do. I believe the Biblical texts written by Moses or Paul are unchanged from 2,000 years ago. I understand this may seem illogical to you, but that's fine. If we don't share the belief in the infallibility of God's word, there's little point in discussing the Bible further since we won't agree.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

There was no Israel in the time of Jesus.

Correct, there was a few hundred years prior, however, during the time period associated with the Jesus of the bible, that was during a period when that patch of land was under Roman control.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Are we talking about Isreal or are we talking about Biblical text. ?

We're talking about Israel. The modern state is a new creation, not some continuation of the past state.

Do you consider that biblical texts, whether composed 1,800 years ago or 2,800 years ago, are inspired by God and have remained unchanged? I don’t think you do. I believe the Biblical texts written by Moses or Paul are unchanged from 2,000 years ago. I understand this may seem illogical to you, but that's fine. If we don't share the belief in the infallibility of God's word, there's little point in discussing the Bible further since we won't agree.

I didn't believe all of that stuff when I believed in God. I certainly don't now.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Correct, there was a few hundred years prior, however, during the time period associated with the Jesus of the bible, that was during a period when that patch of land was under Roman control.

Yep. The Jews of Jesus' time were already pining for control of their own land, then the messianic prophecies of a king to conquer the land back failed and most of them were dispersed to other lands.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Correct, I was highlighting Tucker as someone who is critical of Israel and our interventions (but is still very pro capitalism, pro west) in contrast to the kinds of folks that show up at the protests.

The "right" can do better in finding someone who isn't caught up in the prevailing narrative about the "correctness" of Israel. Tucker is a joke.

For half of the population (regardless of how superficial or petty is sounds)

Seeing a group of people out there in hammer & sickle shirts with rainbow hair and a Keffiyeh, flying an Islamist flag (who just so happen to look a lot like the people who've showed up at every protest for just about every other cause that attributes all of the world's ills to western capitalism/patriarchy/corporations/racism/etc)

They're going to see that and just assume "it's those silly woke people getting bent out of shape over something their humanities professor told them again just like the last 5 things"

However, they will listen to Tucker.
A) because he already has a track record with them
B) he's not constantly pointing the finger at "western imperialism" for every issue that comes along, so it's not going to have the "boy who cried wolf" effect when he says it
C) they'll see it as more of a stand alone issue to be taken seriously because there won't be any speculation that's it's part of some broader progressive political agenda

If you spent more time engaging in the policy instead of which various groups of weirdos are on a particular side, perhaps something useful would come of this.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I don't know how old you are or why you hate what you think of as "The Left" so much but I am old enough to have been aware of many of the events you refer to and sometimes to the extent of actually protesting myself. I can state with confidence based on my own experience that your characterization of "The Left" is rapidly decaying into 100% pure weapons grade bolognium.

Perhaps you haven't noticed some of my other posts, but the reason I'm hard on the left is because that's who I used to vote for, and would prefer to do so again if sanity ever gets a foothold again and they have a "Sister Souljah" moment with the more radical element of their base.

I was extremely anti-Bush back in the day, I was an Obama voter, as well as voting for Biden in 2020 for the record. (and have never voted for Trump, I abstained in 2024, and voted for Gary Johnson in 2016)


So no, I don't "hate the left"

I hate that they now pander to (and attempt to legitimize) the ideologies that that would've been told to go sit at the kid's table back when Bill Clinton and Obama were steering the ship.


Obama tried to politely tried to give them "gentle hint" a few years back.

And in a recent NJ fundraiser, he was a little more harsh, giving the more blunt advice to "Quit whining and toughen up"

His latest comments, first reported by CNN and confirmed by MSNBC, appear to be directed at Democratic Party officials and activists ahead of gubernatorial elections in New Jersey and Virginia in November.

He said: “I think it’s going to require a little bit less navel-gazing and a little less whining and being in fetal positions. And it’s going to require Democrats to just toughen up.”
“Don’t say that you care deeply about free speech".... “No, you stand up for free speech when it’s hard. When somebody says something that you don’t like, but you still say, ‘You know what, that person has the right to speak.’ What’s needed now is courage.”

And on matters of trying to demand "ideological purity" from candidates, he stated:
“Stop looking for the messiah.” Referring to the Democratic nominee for governor in New Jersey, Rep. Mikie Sherrill, and the party’s pick for that office in Virginia, former Rep. Abigail Spanberger, the ex-president said, “You have great candidates running races right now. Support those candidates.”

 

[ThatRobGuy]

The "right" can do better in finding someone who isn't caught up in the prevailing narrative about the "correctness" of Israel. Tucker is a joke.

If you spent more time engaging in the policy instead of which various groups of weirdos are on a particular side, perhaps something useful would come of this.

I'd like to be able to do that, the problem is the the major political parties seem to want to amplify and legitimize their weirdos instead of telling them to go sit at the kids table.

If you haven't been paying attention for the last decade, the weirdos seem to have an outsized influence on the politics of the party they associate with. (or at the very least, the politicians walk on eggshells around them)

 

[Hans Blaster]

I'd like to be able to do that, the problem is the the major political parties seem to want to amplify and legitimize their weirdos instead of telling them to go sit at the kids table.

If you haven't been paying attention for the last decade, the weirdos seem to have an outsized influence on the politics of the party they associate with. (or at the very least, the politicians walk on eggshells around them)

Your definition of "the weirdos" must be pretty broad, because I don't see that. (Well not from non-RW media. The RW media *looooves* to focus on the left's weirdos. It's why I find it annoying when "centrists" who claim not to support the GOP and its policies focus on them too.)

 

[rjs330]

I don't know how old you are or why you hate what you think of as "The Left" so much but I am old enough to have been aware of many of the events you refer to and sometimes to the extent of actually protesting myself. I can state with confidence based on my own experience that your characterization of "The Left" is rapidly decaying into 100% pure weapons grade bolognium.

Okay then, what did you protest when you protested?

 

[BCP1928]

Perhaps you haven't noticed some of my other posts, but the reason I'm hard on the left is because that's who I used to vote for, and would prefer to do so again if sanity ever gets a foothold again and they have a "Sister Souljah" moment with the more radical element of their base.

I have been a Democratic, but I started out a true conservative Republican, back in the days when Republicans were into free market capitalism. Now that both parties are neoLiberal I register Independent.

I was extremely anti-Bush back in the day, I was an Obama voter, as well as voting for Biden in 2020 for the record. (and have never voted for Trump, I abstained in 2024, and voted for Gary Johnson in 2016)


So no, I don't "hate the left"

I hate that they now pander to (and attempt to legitimize) the ideologies that that would've been told to go sit at the kid's table back when Bill Clinton and Obama were steering the ship.

Right. Clinton and Obama were champion neolibs and I voted for them anyway because they weren't on the ugly side of the culture war. But I lost interest in the Democrats when Hillary muscled Bernie aside in 2016. Then, to make matters worse, they put up tired old Biden--who really didn't want the job--to keep him out.

Obama tried to politely tried to give them "gentle hint" a few years back.

And in a recent NJ fundraiser, he was a little more harsh, giving the more blunt advice to "Quit whining and toughen up"

His latest comments, first reported by CNN and confirmed by MSNBC, appear to be directed at Democratic Party officials and activists ahead of gubernatorial elections in New Jersey and Virginia in November.

He said: “I think it’s going to require a little bit less navel-gazing and a little less whining and being in fetal positions. And it’s going to require Democrats to just toughen up.”
“Don’t say that you care deeply about free speech".... “No, you stand up for free speech when it’s hard. When somebody says something that you don’t like, but you still say, ‘You know what, that person has the right to speak.’ What’s needed now is courage.”

And on matters of trying to demand "ideological purity" from candidates, he stated:
“Stop looking for the messiah.” Referring to the Democratic nominee for governor in New Jersey, Rep. Mikie Sherrill, and the party’s pick for that office in Virginia, former Rep. Abigail Spanberger, the ex-president said, “You have great candidates running races right now. Support those candidates.”

Yes, he was right. Trying to achieve culture war purity has done neither party any good, mostly because they are spurious issues. One thing you can rely on: neither party is in favor of free market capitalism, whatever they may think of CRT, DEI or LGBT. In fact, the only political figure preaching free market capitalism is Bernie, hows that for a turn up? The working class shifted to Trump because the Democrats were screwing them over, but that was nothing compared to the screwing over Trump is giving them. Maybe we will finally get a labor party . AOC took the preferred pronouns off her websites the day after Trump was elected, so we know she is not on the Democrat's side any more. AOC2028!

 

[zippy2006]

I'd have to think that Tucker's grilling of Cruz played at least some part in that.

Maybe, but that was some of the most sophistical rhetoric I have ever seen from anyone, period. Tucker has hit an all time low. All he wanted were meme-able clips, and apparently he succeeded.

 

[rjs330]

I don't know how to break this to you, Rob... Americans (and we are talking about American protestors) are much more interested in thing that involve us than things that don't. That pattern applies to all of your examples.

Protestors were protesting Israel and not us. All the protests have been about Israel's response to the sacks upon it and supposedly showing deep concern for the Paleatinian People. When no one was taking over buildings and testing in the streets abiut what Hamas was doing to the Palestinians. It was only when the west got involved that it mattered.

Rob is correct. The only time we see this is when West gets involved. Tie that to what the left thinks of the west, colonialism, and blaming the west for all the problems in the world ita no great leap of logic to say thia is an anti-west deal and not a real concern for the Palestinian people.

 

[BCP1928]

Protestors were protesting Israel and not us. All the protests have been about Israel's response to the sacks upon it and supposedly showing deep concern for the Paleatinian People. When no one was taking over buildings and testing in the streets abiut what Hamas was doing to the Palestinians. It was only when the west got involved that it mattered.

Right, up until then it was a domestic dispute. But the dispute has escalated with Western support.

Rob is correct. The only time we see this is when West gets involved. Tie that to what the left thinks of the west, colonialism, and blaming the west for all the problems in the world ita no great leap of logic to say thia is an anti-west deal and not a real concern for the Palestinian people.

When the West gets involved, then people in the West start protesting.

 

[BCP1928]

Okay then, what did you protest when you protested?

At my age, it would be the Vietnam war, of course, not wanting to force thousands of our countrymen to fight and die for the Domino Theory. (we didn't know about the oil, of course. That was top secret until the war was over) Interestingly enough I was, like Hans, agitating for a free Tibet.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Your definition of "the weirdos" must be pretty broad, because I don't see that. (Well not from non-RW media. The RW media *looooves* to focus on the left's weirdos. It's why I find it annoying when "centrists" who claim not to support the GOP and its policies focus on them too.)

The reason I focus on that, is because

A) that's where the most notable shift has happened recently
B) the left started moving in the wrong direction on that, whereas, contrary to what some pundits may claim, the republicans have actually moved toward the middle on several issues.

The GOP has always had a certain level of pandering to an element of their "more extreme wing" since the 80's. (The Jerry Falwell days)

The difference back then was:
While the GOP politicians would "Yes sir, we'll do anything, just don't turn the evangelicals against us" and would bend a knee to Jerry Falwell, Dobson, etc....

Bill Clinton would tell the Jesse Jacksons of the world to pipe down, one notable example was when he was making an appearance at one of Jackson's events and famously said (in response to what someone else had said): "If you took the words 'white' and 'black,' and you reversed them, you might think David Duke was giving that speech."

Obama did the same at one such event where, when the rest of the theme of the event was "talking about the way white people are holding everyone else down", to which Obama said: "if we are honest with ourselves, we’ll admit that what too many fathers also are missing — missing from too many lives and too many homes. They have abandoned their responsibilities, acting like boys instead of men."

Now, the two parties seemed to have reversed their trajectories on those sorts of things.

Republicans are less beholden to far-right evangelicals than they were in the 90's...and Democrats seem to be more beholden to the perpetually offended crowd. (to the point where they'll even torpedo their own campaign before risking offending them)

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I don't know how to break this to you, Rob... Americans (and we are talking about American protestors) are much more interested in thing that involve us than things that don't. That pattern applies to all of your examples.

No, they're more interested in anything that can be compartmentalized into the "oppressed vs. oppressor" narrative under the guise of it being a "human rights thing"

Case in point:

Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, and Iraq have all mistreated the Palestinians (including things like expulsion, subjecting them to poor living conditions, occupation, raiding their camps, starving them, restricting their movement, giving them sub-par rights in their own countries, etc... -- sound familiar with regards to some of the modern critiques we're hearing?)

Yet, the only times I see the Palestinian flags getting busted out for demonstrations here in the US, it when it's a conflict involving Israel (who's aligned with the US)

It very much comes across as "activism of convenience", where the protesting only kicks in to full gear when there's a way they can make it about "their thing"

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Right, up until then it was a domestic dispute. But the dispute has escalated with Western support.

When the West gets involved, then people in the West start protesting.

Then isn't that just a case of self-centeredness with a little splash of self-flagellation in order to demonstrate how "aware" one is?

If the only time it interests them enough to protest is when they can do so as a means to publicly crap on the country they live in to show off their radical bona fides, that doesn't say much about about the integrity of the protestors.

 

[Pommer]

If the results remain unchanged, protests have no effect and are therefore pointless.

Protesting can be its own reward; the sense of having agency and using it (however ineffectively), quells the heart.
People want to have their say.
Sometimes that “say” borders on the ridiculous, (flat-Earthers, etc), but mostly it doesn’t help/harm anything, so why kvetch about it?