Is This The New Normal?

[rjs330]

Only in authoritarian regimes do masked law enforcement agencies, supported by the military, go door to door and apprehend citizens.

They aren't citizens.

Its a sad day when the military becomes necessary to protect Americans while tgey are doing their jobs. Its a sad day when our LE officers have to cover their faces to protect themselves and their families.

 

[A New Dawn]

I am not “left” so you have to direct these question to them.

I believe that at times, the 2020 George Floyd protests became excessive. The property destruction and vandalism were regrettable, and those responsible for such acts should have been prosecuted according to the law.

It's surprising that you believe law enforcement should imitate regular citizens' behavior. You point out that "the Left" supported ANTIFA riots, so it is justified that law enforcement officers—supported by the military—wearing masks and going door to door to apprehend people.

I have maintained a consistent position on this issue; however, it appears that the actions you previously opposed in 2020 ( Floyed protest) are now considered acceptable as long as you agree with them.

OK, you appear to be hand-in-hand with left, at least ideologically, on this issue hence my comment. I haven’t been here all that long after a 10 year hiatus from CF to know everyone’s position.

I am not advocating that law enforcement should mimic regular citizen’s behavior, but it appears that those who disagree with this policy forget that law enforcement members ARE regular citizens doing their job and that they have been unfairly targeted, and as such, have a right (and responsibility) to defend themselves and their families.

 

[essentialsaltes]

The thing is you guys didn't care when Obama did it. Because it was Obama.

No we didn't care because Obama was prioritizing getting rid of the bad guys who were here illegally over the people paying taxes and working the nation's farms and grannies that have been here for 50 years.

LINK

President-elect Donald Trump’s new pick to be “border czar,” Tom Homan, emphasized Monday that the mass deportations Trump has promised will start with those in the country illegally who have committed crimes.

So... same as Obama and Biden, then.

Trump may have started there, but it took no more than a few weeks to start raiding Home Depot parking lots and sending federalized troops and marines into Los Angeles. I can hardly imagine the apoplexy if Obama had sent marines to go kick those heavily armed nuts out of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge to protect federal property (which was badly ruined by the interlopers). There was enough whinging about LaVoy Finicum being shot ... an FBI agent was put through a trial, but found not guilty.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

They aren't citizens.

Its a sad day when the military becomes necessary to protect Americans while tgey are doing their jobs. Its a sad day when our LE officers have to cover their faces to protect themselves and their families.

It is indeed a sad day that After 250 years of democracy, some Americans believe it is acceptable for the government to deploy the military door to door to apprehend individuals.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

OK, you appear to be hand-in-hand with left, at least ideologically, on this issue hence my comment. I haven’t been here all that long after a 10 year hiatus from CF to know everyone’s position.

I am not advocating that law enforcement should mimic regular citizen’s behavior, but it appears that those who disagree with this policy forget that law enforcement members ARE regular citizens doing their job and that they have been unfairly targeted, and as such, have a right (and responsibility) to defend themselves and their families.

You label me as far-left simply because our perspectives differ. This highlights how political ideology is often defined in contemporary discourse.

I do not support those who attack law enforcement officers or destroy property during protests.

However, this does not justify law enforcement officers wearing masks and, accompanied by the US military, going door-to-door to apprehend individuals. As a nation that values law and order, and upholds democracy with checks and balances, it is essential to adhere to established norms and proper procedures. There should be no exceptions made for "situations like this" or "under the circumstances."

This is typical of authoritarian regimes, such as those in North Korea or Iran, where secret police in black uniforms and military personnel go door to door apprehending people.

If the Trump administration wants to enforce immigration law, they should obtain a court order for each individual, send ICE agents transparently, and proceed with arrests, prosecutions, and deportations through proper legal processes. While this may be time-consuming and face opposition from some judges or officials, it is not an excuse to bypass the law.

If we are to be a nation of law and order, we must follow these procedures consistently and not just when convenient.

 

[A New Dawn]

You label me as far-left simply because our perspectives differ. This highlights how political ideology is often defined in contemporary discourse.

I do not support those who attack law enforcement officers or destroy property during protests.

However, this does not justify law enforcement officers wearing masks and, accompanied by the US military, going door-to-door to apprehend individuals. As a nation that values law and order, and upholds democracy with checks and balances, it is essential to adhere to established norms and proper procedures. There should be no exceptions made for "situations like this" or "under the circumstances."

This is typical of authoritarian regimes, such as those in North Korea or Iran, where secret police in black uniforms and military personnel go door to door apprehending people.

If the Trump administration wants to enforce immigration law, they should obtain a court order for each individual, send ICE agents transparently, and proceed with arrests, prosecutions, and deportations through proper legal processes. While this may be time-consuming and face opposition from some judges or officials, it is not an excuse to bypass the law.

If we are to be a nation of law and order, we must follow these procedures consistently and not just when convenient.

Never once did I label you “far left”. However you are taking a leftist stance on this issue. The Supreme Court has greenlighted this program, so that is who you need to be addressing your dislike to. You wanting him to go to court to get warrants for people who will likely go into hiding as a result of the process before they are picked up is a colossal waste of time. It can be done with them the way it is done with every other criminal who commits a crime. They get picked up on the street and then they appear. To suggest that they have warrants for every criminal they pick up, before they are picked up, is ludicrous. Only if they have to go into your house do they need a warrant.

And IF the leftist politicians chose to obey the law instead of flagrantly breaking the law and demonizing those who ARE obeying the law, none of this would be happening. Another leftist stance you are supporting. This is why I mistakenly assumed you were on the left. Unless you are pointing fingers where it is due, to selectively point at ONLY the ones obeying the law is a biased leftist POV.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Never once did I label you “far left”. However you are taking a leftist stance on this issue. The Supreme Court has greenlighted this program, so that is who you need to be addressing your dislike to. You wanting him to go to court to get warrants for people who will likely go into hiding as a result of the process before they are picked up is a colossal waste of time. It can be done with them the way it is done with every other criminal who commits a crime. They get picked up on the street and then they appear. To suggest that they have warrants for every criminal they pick up, before they are picked up, is ludicrous. Only if they have to go into your house do they need a warrant.

And IF the leftist politicians chose to obey the law instead of flagrantly breaking the law and demonizing those who ARE obeying the law, none of this would be happening. Another leftist stance you are supporting. This is why I mistakenly assumed you were on the left. Unless you are pointing fingers where it is due, to selectively point at ONLY the ones obeying the law is a biased leftist POV.

If following the law and procedures is considered leftist, then I'm happy to be called a lefty.

All individuals, including those accused of crimes, have Fourth Amendment rights. To uphold our status as a nation of laws, we must respect these rights at all times.

 

[A New Dawn]

If following the law and procedures is considered leftist, then I'm happy to be called a lefty.

All individuals, including those accused of crimes, have Fourth Amendment rights. To uphold our status as a nation of laws, we must respect these rights at all times.

I’m not sure where the disconnect is, but giving them due process doesn’t mean you have to have a court hearing before they are even brought in, it is a fundamental legal principle that ensures fairness in civil and criminal matters. Depriving someone due process would be like what happened to the Jan 6ers when they were thrown in jail for YEARS without even charges being filed. Picking somebody up who is a known criminal and holding them for a few hours till an initial court appearance is made where they will then determine to indict or release and a trial is set up is not depriving them of due process.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

I’m not sure where the disconnect is, but giving them due process doesn’t mean you have to have a court hearing before they are even brought in, it is a fundamental legal principle that ensures fairness in civil and criminal matters. Depriving someone due process would be like what happened to the Jan 6ers when they were thrown in jail for YEARS without even charges being filed. Picking somebody up who is a known criminal and holding them for a few hours till an initial court appearance is made where they will then determine to indict or release and a trial is set up is not depriving them of due process.

Due process requires a court to issue a warrant. Law enforcement cannot detain someone at places like 7-Eleven, Home Depot, or a tomato farm without a warrant.

If we claim to be a nation of laws, we cannot break the constitution and justify it with special circumstances. That is what authoritarian regimes do—they make exceptions for certain people and bypass the law.

 

[rambot]

No one is terrorizing Americans.

Hm..
I guess that depends how you define American.

 

[wing2000]

This appears to be selective outrage. The Democratic Party supporters were probably just fine with President Obama putting illegal immigrants in cages and separating families.

Except Obama did not separate families as an intentional deterrance policy.

 

[DaisyDay]

Obama didn't have to try to clean up the illegal actions of the Biden administration which allowed millions upon millions of illegal immigrants to flood into the United States of America.

What specific illegal actions are you referring to?

I find it humorous that the left is so all of the sudden horrified that law-enforcement officers that THEY are putting in danger are wearing masks when they supported mask-wearing Antifa rioters when they caused $20M in damages across the country in 2020.

Ha, goose/gander. I don't recall "the left" - a very broad swathe of people - supporting mask-wearing Antifa rioters, although the peaceful, not masked BLM protesters were widely supported. Do you blame the counter protesters like the Proud Boys for their rioting?

Must be so inconvenient to be so flip-floppy that your tolerances change so drastically depending on who’s doing the activity and not what the activity is.

The activity seems to be very different from where I sit: masked rioters vs secret police disappearing people, sometimes citizens, sometimes citizen children (!). If you are decrying hypocrisy then supporting law enforcement personnel behaving illegally and surreptitiously hits the heights.

 

[A New Dawn]

Due process requires a court to issue a warrant. Law enforcement cannot detain someone at places like 7-Eleven, Home Depot, or a tomato farm without a warrant.

If we claim to be a nation of laws, we cannot break the constitution and justify it with special circumstances. That is what authoritarian regimes do—they make exceptions for certain people and bypass the law.

They can be picked up for a 24 hour hold and the warrant can be issued in that time.

 

[A New Dawn]

Except Obama did not separate families as an intentional deterrance policy.

What world do you live in? Obama built the cages. Trump only used them till he could get proper border housing built.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

They can be picked up for a 24 hour hold and the warrant can be issued in that time.

Are we now supporting arresting people before obtaining a warrant? This raises concerns about our country's commitment to the rule of law and explains why some on the left warn that the current administration threatens democracy.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

What world do you live in? Obama built the cages. Trump only used them till he could get proper border housing built.

You are right. Obama administration bult cages and put immigrant in those cage.

It was wrong when Obama administration did it, and it was wrong when Trump administrations did it.

 

[A New Dawn]

What specific illegal actions are you referring to?

Ha, goose/gander. I don't recall "the left" - a very broad swathe of people - supporting mask-wearing Antifa rioters, although the peaceful, not masked BLM protesters were widely supported. Do you blame the counter protesters like the Proud Boys for their rioting?

The activity seems to be very different from where I sit: masked rioters vs secret police disappearing people, sometimes citizens, sometimes citizen children (!). If you are decrying hypocrisy then supporting law enforcement personnel behaving illegally and surreptitiously hits the heights.

And I’m sure you watch CNN and MSNBC for your news. Kamala Harris raised money to bail them out so they could go back to rioting when they were picked up and released.

I am not mentioning BLM, I specifically said Antifa who was masked, who caused $20M in damages, and who killed 48 people over the course of the summer. Nothing was done. Nobody was prosecuted. Looting was legalized because somehow stealing large screen TVs is the appropriate way to address the problem.

My opinion is that everyone who breaks the law should pay for their crime. But the only ones who paid for their crimes were people on the right side of the aisle. And since you are alluding to Jan 6, not one person on the left was held accountable for their roles in the fiasco from Nancy Pelosi who refused to utilize the National Guard when offered by Trump because of optics to the FBI embedded in with the proud boys who actually started the formulation of the plan to storm the Capitol to the Capitol cop who killed an unarmed woman who was not a danger to him to the DC cop outside the Capitol who shot into the crowd CAUSING the stampede of people running for cover which has been incorrectly labeled a riot. But yes, if the proud boys did something illegal, they should be held accountable.

 

[A New Dawn]

Are we now supporting arresting people before obtaining a warrant? This raises concerns about our country's commitment to the rule of law and explains why some on the left warn that the current administration threatens democracy.

Such hyperbole. Picking up someone for a 24 hold is NOT considered arresting them. Why don’t you do some research so you know what you are talking about.

Since you are “not on the left” I can only assume your concern for law and order in this country extended to the Jan. 6ers who were thrown in jail for years without any charges being brought (which you conveniently didn’t answer the first time I brought up issues with due process.)

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Such hyperbole. Picking up someone for a 24 hold is NOT considered arresting them. Why don’t you do some research so you know what you are talking about.

Since you are “not on the left” I can only assume your concern for law and order in this country extended to the Jan. 6ers who were thrown in jail for years without any charges being brought (which you conveniently didn’t answer the first time I brought up issues with due process.)

Some Democrats are right in saying America may be moving toward authoritarianism.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Since you are “not on the left” I can only assume your concern for law and order in this country extended to the Jan. 6ers who were thrown in jail for years without any charges being brought (which you conveniently didn’t answer the first time I brought up issues with due process.)

You are correct that I did not address January 6, as I am not interested in engaging in "whataboutism." If individuals were arrested after January 6 without due process, it would have been inappropriate under the Biden administration, just as it would be now under the Trump administration.

I do not have loyalty to any political party or ideology. My allegiance is to Jesus Christ and, as an American, to the United States. I am willing to critique any administration, whether Biden, Obama, or Trump, when I believe they are wrong, and see no need to defend actions I consider incorrect.