Spanish Inquisiton

[Amo2]

A figure of 130 million killed by Catholicism generally, has been stated on some Seventh-Day Adventist websites. On what this figure is based, is anyone’s guess. Some Chick tracts and comics give figures of several tens of millions. Neither of these sources gives references to their sources for these figures; which makes informed discussion of them very difficult.

I have read of estimates ranging from 50 to 125 million. These estimates though, are concerning the entire history of Roman Catholic persecutions covering a period of over a thousand years. Not concerning just one nation at one time. This includes far more than just the inquisition as well. A great many were persecuted and killed apart from this institution. This is not to mention the many wars and crusades supported and or instigated by the Roman Church as well. Some suggest that we will never know the full magnitude of these crimes against humanity, this side of heaven. I could supply many quotes concerning such, but have been informed that this discussion is about the Spanish Inquisition, not other nations or persecutions.

 

[Amo2]

That looks like a very fair summary of a very difficult topic. Thank you,

Precision and clarity and detail are needed, if this going to be a worthwhile discussion.

For a start, the Inquisition - even in Spain alone, to say nothing of its overseas possessions, as in Lima and Peru - changed throughout time. As institutions do. It began as a means of dealing with crypto-Jews; by 1559 it had broadened its activities to dealing with “Luteranos” & other Protestants.
And it did not confine itself to dealing with cases of heresy; it had jurisdiction over some other offences as well.
It also had its own Index of Prohibited Books, which did not always agree with the (much better-known) Index of Prohibited Books published by the Roman Inquisition.
Treating it as a static, unchanging quantity, is not historical-minded; there has to be emphasis on the changes in it, through time.
A lot of the paperwork accumulated during its history, no longer exists; so a complete picture of it, is not possible.
Its procedure was based on the procedure of the mediaeval Inquisitions.

It is extremely unfortunate - though not surprising - that the subject has become bogged down in matters of apologetics, whether for or against; because that kind of attitude is taken up with partisanship on one side or another; which is the very opposite of the detached, fair-minded, unpartisan, completely honest, perfectly truthful attitude that ought to be the attitude of an historian. And the Inquisition is very obviously an historical topic, to be understood by historical means. So it is doubly unfortunate that the subject is mixed up with considerations, not only of people’s differing religious allegiances, but also of theology and ethics.

It is perhaps as well to mention, that neither Spain, nor Catholicism, nor the Inquisition, was alone in burning heretics or in using torture. That sounds like the worst kind of apologetics, of course. It is not intended as any such thing - one mentions these things, solely to provide some context. The Inquisition in Spain did these things, not because it was unique, but because it was nothing of the kind. The use of torture was widespread; so was burning at the stake; burnings in Scotland took place long after Scotland was no longer Catholic. So the European history of capital punishment & of torture, though it includes the Spanish Inqusition, cannot be confined to it, because that would be unhistorical. The search for accuracy of historical context in studying a particular institution, cannot limit itself to that institution alone; it cannot avoid looking beyond that institution, to others that may resemble it in various ways, so that the search may return to the institution that is the object of the study.

A difficulty for us, in the here and now, is that we have our own values and priorities, which in several respects are significantly different from the values and priorities of late 15th-century Catholic Spain. Humanitarianism (secular or not) is much more important today, than it was then, in any country. Equally, it is a safe bet that Inquisitors of that time and place would have been as appalled and revolted by the prevalence of abortion in modern Europe, as modern Europeans would be revolted by the Inquisition’s use of torture & the stake. Just the other day, the British Parliament agreed to legalise abortion up to the time of birth; so IMO, modern Britain has absolutely no standing to criticise the Spanish Inquisition. The only shred of excuse I can think of, is that Britain is a post-Christian, & morally confused, society.

It is very tempting to try to assign blame, and to moralise, when involved in this subject. I don’t think that is something one should do, if one is trying to be historically accurate & truthful. OTOH, if one aspires to be a Christian, of any kind, one can hardly avoid making such judgements. Perhaps, to understand a society, and how it “ticks”, adequately, one has to belong in it.

No doubt many Sabbath keeping Christinas were among those accused of being crypto-Jews. As the following link suggests.

Holocaust Revealed

 

[The Liturgist]

These estimates though, are concerning the entire history of Roman Catholic persecutions covering a period of over a thousand years.

This number is not merely exaggerated. It is profoundly misleading, historically indefensible, and morally reckless.

It is variously an impossibility in demographic terms, a collapse of historical proportion, and also a tragic disservice to the memory of those who have truly suffered persecution throughout the ages—Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, Adventist, and others, including non-Christian victims of religious violence such as the Jews and most recently the Yazidis killed by ISIS in Sinjar in Iraq in 2016 and the Rohingya Muslims killed by Theravada Buddhists in Burma.*

To understand how wildly out of proportion this number is, consider that:

1. The total population of Europe during the height of Roman Catholic institutional power (which we can say was around the year 1300 AD, before the anti-Catholic uprising in the Czech Republic in the 15th century and various other actions which weakened ecclesiastical authority over the following century, leading to the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century), was less than 80 million.
2. The combined global death tolls of World War I and World War II—our two deadliest wars—amount to a maximum of 125 million people.
3. The best estimates from qualified historians for the Spanish Inquisition—perhaps the most cited incident in these accusations—are around 3,000 to 5,000 deaths over several centuries. Not 125 million. Not 1 million. Not even 10,000.

That number—3,000 to 5,000—isn’t pleasant. Every unjust death is a tragedy. But to inflate that by four orders of magnitude and make it the cornerstone of anti-Catholic polemic is irresponsible in the extreme.

Even if one were to add the deaths from the Crusades (perhaps 1–3 million), the French Wars of Religion, the Thirty Years’ War (which involved Protestants and Catholics alike), and all ecclesiastically-adjacent colonial violence (much of which was carried out by states, not churches), we still do not arrive at anything close to such a fantastical total.

There are no historical documents, no demographic records, no papal decrees, no annals, no serious scholarly works—none—that even attempt to make such a claim. The figure of 125 million comes not from history but from fringe literature, often passed along in sensationalist media, anti-Catholic tracts, or uncritical internet memes. The fact that no one ever seems able to itemize these alleged deaths should be telling.

What Scripture has to say about reckless speech is not ambiguous:

“Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.” — Exodus 20:16
“The one who conceals hatred has lying lips, and whoever utters slander is a fool.” — Proverbs 10:18
“But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.” — Matthew 12:36

A Christian has every right to disagree with Roman Catholic doctrine. That is a matter of conscience and conviction. But we are forbidden, under pain of judgment, to traffic in grotesque exaggerations designed to provoke hatred.

The Roman Catholic Church has made mistakes. So have Protestants, Orthodox Christians and even Adventists. So have kings, and councils, and empires, and armies, and every other human institution. The pursuit of truth demands that we neither minimize real evil nor invent imaginary ones.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Regarding the population this video addresses it:

Starting about 30 minutes in

Even if it were 3000-5000 which is not supported by many own Catholic sources - can you imagine if the SDA church killed 3000-5000 because they didn't believe how we did- why is any number okay to kill Christians, killing Christians I would not put under the category as just a mistake.

 

[Amo2]

This number is not merely exaggerated. It is profoundly misleading, historically indefensible, and morally reckless.

It is variously an impossibility in demographic terms, a collapse of historical proportion, and also a tragic disservice to the memory of those who have truly suffered persecution throughout the ages—Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, Adventist, and others, including non-Christian victims of religious violence such as the Jews and most recently the Yazidis killed by ISIS in Sinjar in Iraq in 2016 and the Rohingya Muslims killed by Theravada Buddhists in Burma.*

To understand how wildly out of proportion this number is, consider that:

1. The entire population of Europe during the height of the Church’s institutional influence (say, 1300 AD) was fewer than 80 million.
2. The combined global death tolls of World War I and World War II—our two deadliest wars—amount to a maximum of 125 million people.
3. The best estimates from qualified historians for the Spanish Inquisition—perhaps the most cited incident in these accusations—are around 3,000 to 5,000 deaths over several centuries. Not 125 million. Not 1 million. Not even 10,000.

That number—3,000 to 5,000—isn’t pleasant. Every unjust death is a tragedy. But to inflate that by four orders of magnitude and make it the cornerstone of anti-Catholic polemic is irresponsible in the extreme.

Even if one were to add the deaths from the Crusades (perhaps 1–3 million), the French Wars of Religion, the Thirty Years’ War (which involved Protestants and Catholics alike), and all ecclesiastically-adjacent colonial violence (much of which was carried out by states, not churches), we still do not arrive at anything close to such a fantastical total.

There are no historical documents, no demographic records, no papal decrees, no annals, no serious scholarly works—none—that even attempt to make such a claim. The figure of 125 million comes not from history but from fringe literature, often passed along in sensationalist media, anti-Catholic tracts, or uncritical internet memes. The fact that no one ever seems able to itemize these alleged deaths should be telling.

What Scripture has to say about reckless speech is not ambiguous:

“Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.” — Exodus 20:16
“The one who conceals hatred has lying lips, and whoever utters slander is a fool.” — Proverbs 10:18
“But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.” — Matthew 12:36

A Christian has every right to disagree with Catholic doctrine. That is a matter of conscience and conviction. But we are forbidden, under pain of judgment, to traffic in grotesque exaggerations designed to provoke hatred.

The Roman Catholic Church has made mistakes. So have Protestants, Orthodox Christians and even Adventists. So have kings, and councils, and empires, and armies, and every other human institution. The pursuit of truth demands that we neither minimize real evil nor invent imaginary ones.

* Buddhism might actually have a much higher body count than Roman Catholicism when we consider the death of all Christians in China, Mongolia and Tibet during a time coinciding with Tamerlane’s persecution of the Church of the East, and while Tamerlane did have influence in Mongolia, as a half-Mongolian Turk, his influence in China was much less, and non-existent in Tibet, so the only way the Church of the East could have been extirpated from the Far East involved, at a minimum, substantial Buddhist complicity. We also have the case of the ongoing persecutions of the Rohingya Muslims in Burma and of the Hindu minority in Bhutan, by the Drukpa “Red Hat” Buddhist majority.

There are of course many who disagree with your above statement, whom I could quote. Nevertheless, these boards are about the Spanish inquisition, and the one who started this thread does not wish to expand the topic. There is nothing absurd about estimates from 50 to 125 million over a course of over a thousand years concerning the hundreds of millions if not perhaps billions who lived and died during that millennium. From the following link, if it be accurate, there may have been up to one hundred million in Europe just from the tenth to the 13th centuries. This of course will simply not include a great many populations basically unknown to history or historians. Or persecutions outside of Europe. Perhaps time willing, I will start another topic to address the broader issue of martyrdom across the span of "Christian" history.

 

[The Liturgist]

As an aside, I would note that the only ways I can think of one might arrive at 125 million people killed in total by Roman Catholics would be by either attributing most casualties of the two World Wars to Roman Catholicism, which is preposterous, since in no sense was the RCC responsible for them, or by attributing all cases of unnatural death in Western Europe between the fall of the Roman Empire and the Renaissance to Roman Catholicism, which is equally preposterous, given the Plague that spread into Europe from Asia along the trade routes of the Mongolian Empire being responsible for so much death during that historical epoch.

The plague killed a third of the population of Europe, which is radically more death than was ever caused by any religious persecution, even the worst persecutions of the Soviet Union and Islam, which exceed by orders of magnitude even the worst attrocities engaged in the name of the Roman Catholic Church (and even more so by those for which the RCC actually has culpability, such as the Fourth Crusade in which the Byzantine Empire was invaded by a military force that had been raised for the purpose of retaking the Holy Land from the Muslim oppressors, but which was rediverted to Constantinople by Venice and abused by the Venetian Republic in a bid to consolidate their power in the Eastern Mediterranean; in the end, while they did successfully conquer most of the Byzantine Empire, they were unable to occupy it, and the Emperor returned to Constantinople after just a few decades of Venetian oppression, however, it was that event which would cause the most harm in Eastern Orthodox-Roman Catholic relations; it was from that point that the Great Schism of 1054 became definitive, and it is still that action and certain other abuses of the Orthodox during the crusades, as well as a sense of betrayal of the Byzantine Empire or attempted religious extortion in the form of the Council of Florence, that cause many Orthodox Christians to be deeply resentful of the Roman church.

For my part, in that the Roman church has officially apologized for and repented of its persecution of the Orthodox and regards our sacraments as valid, and ensured our bishops were present at Vatican II, we should move on from these past issues, and instead try to attain ecumenical reunification on the basis of our shared Patristic heritage, which involves forgiving the Roman church for the errors of those who died long ago and moving on, and addressing only those doctrinal and ecclesiastical issues which presently divide us, for example, the issue of the transfer of control of certain of the sui juris Eastern Catholic Churches to the Orthodox patriarchates which have jurisdiction over them according to the Council of Nicaea and the Council of Ephesus (but this requires first that we Eastern Orthodox complete our reunification with the Oriental Orthodox, since the canons in question do not make provision for multiple patriarchates in Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem, Cyprus and Constantinople and the Oriental Orthodox also have valid sacraments and in many respects are ahead of the Eastern Orthodox in terms of the total number of martyrdoms experienced in recent years, in terms of monastic vocations, and vocations in general, and in terms of the devotion of the faithful, for example, the Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox Church has more people spending more hours in worship in the church, with 12 hour liturgies being common even in the diaspora, than any other Orthodox church, even the pious Romanians, and the Russian Old Rite Orthodox.

We used to have that level of liturgical attendance, but it has not been the case; our services have been abbreviated to a fraction of that for many centuries outside of a few monasteries.

However, other Oriental Orthodox churches, such as the Syriac Orthodox, which has the closest relationship to the Eastern Orthodox as a result of their ecumenical agreement with the Antiochian Orthodox Church in the early 1990s, wherein it is actually impossible for a Syriac Orthodox to be received into the Antiochian Orthodox church proper in the Middle East or vice versa (althouogh in the US, conversions are theoretically possible into and out of the AOCNA, because the Antiochian Orthodox Church of North America is an autonomous church which was historically part of the Russian Orthodox Church, albeit comprised of ethnically Antiochian Christians predominantly from Syria and Lebanon, but now, it, along with the OCA and ROCOR, which were also part of the Russian Orthodox Church (the event that turned these into separate jurisdiction was confusion following the takeover of the Soviet Union by the Communists in 1917), is one of the three most ethnically diverse jurisdictions in North America.

 

[The Liturgist]

There are of course many who disagree with your above statement, whom I could quote. Nevertheless, these boards are about the Spanish inquisition, and the one who started this thread does not wish to expand the topic.

Actually insofar as the number includes the Spanish Inquisition, it is topical. Thus to respond to the rest of your post:

There is no doubt that a tremendous number of people lived and died during the long span of Christian history. Nor is it controversial that many of them died unjustly—sometimes at the hands of fellow Christians, whether Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Protestant. What is controversial—what I believe must be rejected—is the claim that between 50 and 125 million people were killed by the Roman Catholic Church itself, as a matter of direct religious persecution.

It is variously a demographic impossibility, a methodological error, and a collapse of historical proportion.

We must distinguish between what can be imagined and what can be responsibly claimed. For example:

• It is true that Europe’s population may have reached 100 million at points during the High Middle Ages. But that includes all people, of all faiths, all ages, many of whom died of plague, war, famine, childbirth, or ordinary disease. It does not mean the Roman Catholic Church killed them.

• It is true that much persecution has gone undocumented, especially outside Europe. But again, persecution is not evidence of a systematic campaign responsible for 50 to 125 million deaths.

• It is true that injustice has been done in the name of religion. But the same is true of secular ideologies. Numbers matter. If we don’t respect scale, we turn history into propaganda.

This number—whether 50 million or 125 million—is not grounded in serious scholarship. No Vatican decrees, no episcopal records, no court registers, no military archives, no papal bulls, no legal transcripts, no demographic studies, no forensic evidence has ever indicated a death toll remotely near that figure attributable to Roman Catholic ecclesiastical authority alone.
When we abandon evidence in favor of enormity, we are no longer doing history. We are doing myth.

“Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.” — Exodus 20:16

“He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool.” — Proverbs 10:18

“But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.” — Matthew 12:36

Let me speak plainly: I am not a Roman Catholic. I am Eastern Orthodox, with deep affinity for the Oriental Orthodox. My Church and other non-Latin Churches were often persecuted—by Roman Catholics, by Byzantines, by Muslims, by secular states. But truth is not a weapon we may bend for our own cause. If I refuse to defend the Roman Catholic Church from falsehood now, merely because I belong to another communion, I am no better than the persecutor who cared more for power than for truth.

The Roman Catholic Church has made serious historical errors. So have the Orthodox, Protestants, monarchs, revolutionaries, and secular empires. The pursuit of truth demands that we neither minimize real evil nor invent imaginary ones.

To anticipate a possible objection: yes, this thread concerns the Spanish Inquisition—but that only underscores the problem. If a total of 3,000–5,000 deaths from that infamous tribunal, over several centuries, is the best-attested figure from one of the most infamous institutions in Western ecclesiastical history, it makes the claim of 50–125 million deaths across the same Church structure all the more indefensible. It is not an evasion of the topic to challenge the number. It is, in fact, required by the topic.

 

[JSRG]

View attachment 366351

So let's talk about what's wrong with this chart. There are two lines here, "With Roman Persecution" (showing the actual population), and "Estimated Growth Without Persecution". How exactly the "Estimated Growth Without Persecution" is arrived at is unclear; at the bottom of the image it attributes it to a "computer science professor" (hardly someone to consult about a topic like this), and it looks more like it's just assuming the conclusion (that there were a lot of deaths from persecution) and then plugging that in there, so it's not any actual evidence of massive life loss from persecution, as it's just assuming it to begin with.

But as for the red line, the true population, this chart is essentially useless to the question of the degree of persecutions. So the apparent argument of the graph is to point out that there was population stagnation from 1200 to 1300 (which with the arrow pointing to the Inquisition is presumably supposed to indicate was its own fault), and of course a decrease from 1300 to 1400. This is attributed to persecution, hence why we see the "Estimated Growth Without Persecution" rise noticeably during this period of stagnation and decrease.

But the problem with these numbers should be obvious: This is the world population. No matter how much the Roman Catholic Church wanted to persecute people, its power was limited to Europe, which was only about 1/5 of the global population. In other words, a whole lot of what affected the global population had absolutely nothing to do with Europe or the Roman Catholic Church. What would be relevant is the numbers from Europe, not the world population. So what are those numbers, which would be far more relevant?

The numbers from the chart in the line for the actual population, as is shown in the image you provide, are from the work Atlas of World Population History. I looked at it, as it is conveniently available on archive.org at this link. The world population data is from a chart on page 342. Now, as noted, the worldwide numbers are useless for determining "Roman Persecution". But what would be useful is the European numbers. On page 18 we see the numbers for Europe. Let's take a look at them and compare them to the worldwide numbers; the first number is the European number, and the second is the worldwide one. Numbers in millions:

1000: 29 (265)
1100: 44 (320)
1200: 58 (360)
1300: 79 (360)
1400: 60 (350)
1500: 81 (425)
1600: 100 (545)

At the time of worldwide stagnation from 1200 to 1300, we see population growth. In fact, from 1000 to 1600, we see continued growth century to century, except for the dramatic drop from 1300 to 1400, which was the fault of the Black Death occurring midway through that century, one of the most deadly pandemics in world history.

So given we see continual population growth century to century while the Roman Catholic Church is in power, even in the century of the Inquisition's founding, save for 1300 to 1400 which is the fault of the Black Death. It actually seems the population data is an argument against the claim being made.

For those wondering about why the 1200 to 1300 global population was stagnant despite the growth in Europe, the problem here seems to have been Asia. Again looking at the book being cited for the graph you showed, on page 122 we see a chart for Asia's population, which a population decrease of 250 to 230 from 1200 to 1300; thus the increase in Europe was counteracted by the decrease in Asia. What caused this considerable population loss? According to pages 128-129, it was the Mongolian wars: "As Mongol rule spread over this vast area, the population of every part of it dropped and anyone who has read accounts of the way the Mongols waged war would expect no less... The Mongols not only massacred the peasants, they deliberately destroyed the peasants' infrastructure: irrigation works, villages, and market towns. Then they brought in their flocks to graze among the ruins. The fall in population was long-lasting because there had been a shift from high-density farming to low-density pastoralism."

So the chart is quite misleading. It is about world populaton, which is worthless for reasons already given, and if we focus only on the European population (the actual relevant numbers), we see growth, going against the argument being made.

 

[Amo2]

I'll start another topic, where the subject may be examined without interfering with this topic. We'll examine the many different claims from the past and present, there sources, and or probability. Time willing of course.

 

[The Liturgist]

I'll start another topic, where the subject may be examined without interfering with this topic. We'll examine the many different claims from the past and present, there sources, and or probability. Time willing of course.

The issue is topical and does not disrupt the question of the Spanish Inquisition, since the Spanish Inquisition is supposedly the most heinous act of the Roman Catholic Church, yet we know with certainty that no more than 10,000 people (actually the upper limit according to scholars is 3,000, maximum) were killed, which has the effect of rendering the entire proposition false.

There is simply no statistical way to get to the number of 125,000. Such a figure is indefensible, and my Roman Catholic friend @jamiec was right to alert me to this.

This isn’t a question of sources, it’s a question as to whether or not one willingly rejects all known historical and archaeological evidence in order to basically engage in negative proselytism against Roman Catholics. It is profoundly intolerant, and given how tolerant the Roman church has become towards other Christians, and how supportive they have been of the persecuted Orthodox Christians and Assyrian Christians in the Middle East, which in the case of the Oriental Orthodox and the Assyrian Church of the East has even extended to mutual Eucharistic hospitality in some cases in the Oriental Orthodox and in general with regards to the Assyrians, such an approach is indefensible.

 

[The Liturgist]

Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Jesus Christ is God. Why do you refer to them as though they are separate in this context while claiming to believe in the deity of Christ elsewhere?

More importantly, there is no basis for accusing the Roman Catholic Church of not keeping the commandments of Christ our True God, for they do this, and have done so, and that they do so is not disputed even by denominations such as mine (the Eastern Orthodox) or the Lutherans who have historical objections to some aspects of the Roman church.

Specifically, we can say that the Roman Catholic Church keeps the commandments of Christ our True God in every respect, because of the following:

1. They actively work to evangelize and baptize all nations, in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, as we are instructed to do in Matthew 28:19.
2. They believe in the Holy Trinity, in the Incarnation of God in the person of Jesus Christ, and have always done so, having supported St. Athanasius the Patriarch of Alexandria when he was persecuted by Emperor Constantius, the son of St. Constantine, who had been converted to the Arian religion by Eusebius of Nicomedia, and indeed as was discussed earlier in this thread Christians including the Roman Catholics and the Orthodox were persecuted by Emperor Constantius and all of his successors until the reign of St. Theodosius*
3. The Roman Catholic Church teaches the correct doctrine of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist and celebrates the Eucharist daily.
4. Insofar as the decalogue remains in force, which is a disputed question, it cannot be denied that the Roman Church adheres to every article of it, including keeping the Sabbath holy, for the majority of worship on the Seventh Day throughout the world happens in Roman Catholic Churches, in the form of Masses, the Liturgy of the Hours, Novenas, the Rosary, Eucharistic Adoration, and several other forms of legitimate worship of Christ our True God.
5. The Roman Catholic Church represents the second highest number of martyrs in the world after the persecuted Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches.
6. The Roman Catholic Church, together with the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox Church and the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East, and related churches, are the only churches which experienced persecution by the ancient Roman Empire, the Persian Empire, the kingdoms evangelized into the false religion of Arius such as the Visigoths, Ostrogoths and Vandals, the early Islamic caliphates, the Ottoman Empire, the Empire of China, the Soviet Union and its satellite Communist states as well as other communist states that were founded as a result of Soviet activity such as Albania, which ruthlessly persecuted Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians, worse than any other government in human history, and also by Nazi Germany and the Italian fascists (indeed, there was a plan approved by Hitler to abduct Pope Pius XII and hold him hostage for leverage over the Roman Catholic community), and by more recent Communist and Islamist regimes, such as the Derg in Ethiopia, and ISIS in Iraq and Syria. Additionally, the Roman Catholic Church experienced severe persecution in England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland until the late 19th century when the Penal Laws and Test Acts were abolished, and in the UK is still to this day the victim of discrimination insofar as Roman Catholics are prevented from ascending to the throne under the Acts of Succession.
7. The Roman Catholic population has suffered from continual discrimination in various Northern European countries, and also historically was discriminated against to a great extent in North America, with anti-Roman Catholic discrimination still existing to some extent in some places.
8. The Roman Catholic Church adheres to the doctrines of the Ecumenical Synods and does not engage in any form of Arianism, Macedonianism, Donatism, Docetism, Emanationism, Antidicomarianism, Collyridianism, Nestorianism, Eutychianism, Tritheism, Monothelitism or Iconoclasm.
9. The Roman Catholic Church correctly venerates the Blessed Virgin Mary as the Mother of God, the Theotokos, in line with Orthodox beliefs, and has also as of 1952 confirmed the ancient Orthodox doctrine of the Assumption; additionally, with regards to the Byzantine Rite liturgy the Roman church continues to use the hymn Ho Monogenes which has the effect of excluding all Christological heresy.
10. The Roman Catholic Church also uses the Nicene Creed or the Apostles Creed or the Athanasian Creed at all liturgies, which is extremely important.
11. The Roman Catholic Church preserves the Scriptural hierarchy of Episkopoi, Presbyters and Deacons, in apostolic succession.
12. The Roman Catholic Church, in-line with the teachings of Christ our True God, rejects divorce and adultery and also opposes abortion; indeed, the Roman Catholic witness against abortion has been pivotal in the recent successes in bringing an end to this terrible practice in parts of the United States.
13. The Roman Catholic Church has translated the Bible and the various liturgical rites to more languages than any other church.
14. The Roman Catholic Church operates the largest healthcare system of any church, in more countries than any other, even providing medical services in predominantly Muslim areas, such as the upper reaches of The Gambia.
15. Most importantly, the Roman Catholic Church preserves the Apostolic Faith of Christ our True God and teaches its members to love God with all their heart, mind and soul and to love their neighbor as themselves.

Thus, there is no possible scenario in which the Roman Church is defective with regards to either the Law or the Gospel. They are one of the leading denominations of the Christian religion.

While I am Orthodox, and do disagree with Rome on some important points, I can assure you that I love the Roman Church and look forward to its reunification with the Orthodox in the near future. I also frequently attend Roman Catholic liturgies, for example, the Traditional Latin Mass and various Eastern Catholic liturgies.

 

[The Liturgist]

Regarding the population this video addresses it:

Starting about 30 minutes in

View attachment 366351

Even if it were 3000-5000 which is not supported by many own Catholic sources - can you imagine if the SDA church killed 3000-5000 because they didn't believe how we did- why is any number okay to kill Christians, killing Christians I would not put under the category as just a mistake.

I’m not watching a video. If you’re actually claiming that the Roman Catholic Church killed tens of millions of people, you need to personally provide evidence that links to credible academic publications that support your claims. Random videos by Youtubers are not acceptable evidence because as is well known people routinely post misinformation to YouTube.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Jesus Christ is God. Why do you refer to them as though they are separate in this context while claiming to believe in the deity of Christ elsewhere?

This is Scripture I quoted, if it bothers you, you will have to take it up with Jesus who revealed it through John.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

I believe the commandments of God obviously includes the Ten Commandments Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28 Exo 20:6 the unedited version Exo 31:18 Exo 20:1-17 God promised not to alter Psa 89:34, not a jot or tittle Mat 5:18

The 4th commandment is more than the Sabbath commandment- it is a commandment on how to keep all days. Only one day exalted on a weekly basis above all others thus saith the Lord Exo 20:8-11 Eze 22:26

 

[The Liturgist]

This is Scripture I quoted, if it bothers you, you will have to take it up with Jesus who revealed it through John.

Of course it doesn’t bother me, i was confused because the translations I use primarily (the Murdoch and the RSV) phrases that sentence slightly differently, so I did not recognize it immediately, and I was surprised because usually you adopt, in a manner I support, a strongly Incarnational message.

 

[jamiec]

Enlightenment theology focuses on what it wants to say and sidelines everything else using Reason. This ingrained mindset is what created the just the blindspot for atrocities to be created under the nose of the church. It continues today, it's just not new theology anymore tho.

ISTM that what you are describing is rationalism - not reason. Reason is good, if used well, with an awareness of its limitations, of its proper use and competence, and if it is cultivated together with other aspects of human nature that are no less important than reason; such as the moral & intellectual virtues.

For reason, well-cultivated, is just one aspect of God-intended human flourishing; and human flourishing is stunted & incomplete, if some aspects of human nature are cultivated, and not others. So we are supposed to be reasonable - but also, a lot of other things as well. We are sure to go wrong, if we isolate one aspect of human nature, or some of them, and cultivate it, or them, alone; while neglecting the others. All human qualities need each other, if they are all to flourish as they are intended to.

Rationalism is as incompletely human as excessive reliance on the feelings, or on the appetites, are - in human beings, all three things, together, each have their proper function in human nature, that only they can perform.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

ISTM that what you are describing is rationalism

The term being falsely labelled reason was applying rationalism, so false premise.

 

[jamiec]

Indeed, much of the so-called “enlightenment” of the 18th century would be more properly called the “endarkenment.”

Perhaps the “Enskotiōsis” - from Gk. *skotia*, “darkness”.

 

[jamiec]

The term being falsely labelled reason was applying rationalism, so false premise.

It doesn’t sound as if we disagree.

 

[jamiec]

Yes please do

The sources I have found on-line give figures of between 50 million and 68 million. My guess is that I found the figure of 130 million in the first of the Alberto comics, published by Jack Chick. I no longer have my copy, and I am very unwilling to buy another in order to verify the reference, because I do not wish to enrich any part of the Chick tracts business.

There seem to be quite a few sources online that give the lower figure of of 50 million to 68 million. I have not, for several years, researched any sources I know to be affiliated with the SDAs.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

It doesn’t sound as if we disagree.

We probably do since western rationalism=reason in the context that the person I was responding to was using it.