Utah lawmakers’ own study found gender-affirming care benefits trans youth. Will they lift the treatment ban?

[ThatRobGuy]

Right. The "problems" associated with trans can be solved. Already some of them have been addressed. For instance, it is now illegal for boys to play on girls' teams even if the girls want them, but people are still kvetching about it. No, the real issue is not how we are handling trans--which could definitely be improved--but that the "trans agenda," whatever that is, does not concern itself with "Bibilical" sexual morality. That's the real objection to trans.

I don't have any objections to that are biblically rooted, I'm an atheist.

My objection is that a subset of the progressives in this country seem to immediately jump on board and fast-track any concept or notion that "challenges traditional norm XYZ" merely on the mindset that "if it challenges a traditional norm, it must be an inherently good idea so full throttle", even if that involves throwing caution to the wind.

The "sexual morality" component doesn't even factor into my thought process on that.

...and then trying to use "science" as a bludgeon to squash any critiques. To hear some people discuss it, they portray it as if "gender is fluid, affirmation care is the gold standard, and that's the best approach we're ever going to find, so no need to look into it any more, just accept it...and forget everything you know about adolescents and phases"...as if it's on-par with the link between smoking and lung cancer in terms of medical and scientific durability.

And a huge chunk of those increases come from people identifying as "non-binary" (or as I call it, the easy one that doesn't involve anything apart from a wardrobe change) -- people seem to refuse to acknowledge the social aspect where, especially among the younger generations, there's a certain "coolness" associated with being anything other than a boring old cis/straight.

 

[rjs330]

Well, they are certainly not getting irreversible procedures or treatments without parental support and medical advice.

Its been proven that neither the parents nor the kids are giving informed consent. They have no clue what they are consenting to.

 

[MotoToTheMax]

That's an issue in the trans community in general that has nothing to do with whether or not people get gender-affirming care. People who find themselves ostracized and kicked out of the home at a young age - especially those with "non-traditional" sexuality or gender identity - frequently end up in sex work because it's a relatively lucrative and low-skill occupation.

Wait til she finds who often PAYS for that kind of work. Ted Haggard and others like him come to mind.

 

[BCP1928]

O

This study from Utah flies in the face of other studies on this subject. Remember this is a review of other studies. Its NOT a study in itself. It reviewed other studies. Other systematic reviews have said that there are NO good actual studies on this subject. It's the reason that Europe has abandoned affirmative care for kids except in specific clinical circumstances. A very small minority of kids claiming to be trans are admitted to their clinics if they have one. The VAST majority of kids do NOT receive affirming care.

This Utah review does not PROVE anything. There IS proof that if you leave the kid alone and give them psychological support they will desist and will NOT maintain a trans path as an adult. It IS also proven that once you put the kid on the trans train they WILL continue on it. Because its too late.

The systematic reviews show that any and all studies involving trans kids are unreliable and of extremely poor quality.
Even Utahs review made no claims on what should be done.

Its a proven fact that giving kids what they want creates a period of well being. But it DOESN'T stick. Eventually they start having issues again and often combines mental AND physical health issues.

STOP WITH THE MEDICALIZATION OF CHILDREN.

OK, and we'll keep them out of girls' sports too. What else?

 

[rjs330]

You don't think minors should receive any sort of medical care that could have serious side effects? If a doctor told you that your child had a serious condition that could lead to their death, and that there were medications and possibly medical procedures that could reduce the chance that they die, as well as greatly improve the quality of their life, would you have any interest in looking into that?

There are many medications prescribed for children that have potentially life-altering side effects. Routine procedures that can substantially change a child's body. These are all undertaken with lots of discussion between doctors and parents - and the children themselves, if they're old enough. I don't see why this would need to be any different.

That's a FLAT OUT LIE provided by the trans activists. Its a lie told to parents in order to scare them into transing their child. Why you would propagate such falsehood is beyond me.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

The part in bold is the reason why I chose that comparison. It's rooted in serious issues with body image and mental health.
"My body doesn't look they way I want it to, so unless you let me alter it, I'm going to kill myself" would be indicative of that, correct?

I don't think that's the general attitude among transgender people. They want others to see them as and treat them like they would anyone else of the gender that they see themselves as. Changing their appearance is a way to facilitate that. That's not to say that no one holds that belief, but from my experiences with trans people, it's far from the norm. There's a reason why bottom surgery is relatively uncommon relative to top surgery or hormone treatment.

It's not a coincidence that Buck and Blaire chose to cultivate these particular looks for themselves

An adult actor and a Youtube commentator are hardly a representative sample of the transgender community.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

No one knows that. In order to know that you MUST be able to prove that someone would have committed suicide if not treated. There is no way to know that.

On an individual basis, sure. But with a large enough sample size, trends emerge. And the suicide rate is lower among transgender people who received treatment during puberty than it is for transgender people who did not receive treatment until they were adults.

 

[BCP1928]

And a huge chunk of those increases come from people identifying as "non-binary" (or as I call it, the easy one that doesn't involve anything apart from a wardrobe change) -- people seem to refuse to acknowledge the social aspect where, especially among the younger generations, there's a certain "coolness" associated with being anything other than a boring old cis/straight.

You are right about that. Of course you have to consider that "trans" is a spectrum of possibilities, not an "either or." Above and beyond real "trans" however, there are increasing number of young people who are refusing to play the game. "Non-binary" means exactly what it says--that they are refusing to choose between the two options currently available. In my experience, many entirely straight as well as trans young people are taking this up, just out of disgust.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Its been proven that neither the parents nor the kids are giving informed consent. They have no clue what they are consenting to.

What baloney. Where are the criminal and civil actions for this alleged universal ethical lapse?

AFAIK the couple lawsuits out there have not been decided, so nothing of the sort has been 'proven'.

 

[RileyG]

Again, what makes this particular set of medications and procedures different from any of the others that already exist which can have life-altering consequences? Heck, just deciding where to send your child to school or where to move to can have life-altering consequences. Literally any decision that you make can have a massive cascading effect on your life down the road - I can pinpoint plenty of decisions that I (or my parents) made when I was still a child or a teenager that have altered the course of my life for good and for ill.

That's just how life works - we try to make the best decision based on the information that we have at the time. Sometimes that decision turns out well, and sometimes it doesn't, but ultimately we always have to live with the consequences of our actions. Just because you personally see something as a mistake does not mean that it is - especially universally.

Only time will tell. I have nothing else to add. I’m all for adults making their own decisions. Just leave minors alone.

 

[RileyG]

Its been proven that neither the parents nor the kids are giving informed consent. They have no clue what they are consenting to.

Can minors legally drink alcohol? Get married? Own property? Be the POTUS? So forth and so on? Why should they make such a radical decision at such a young age? That’s what I don’t understand.

 

[RileyG]

What baloney. Where are the criminal and civil actions for this alleged universal ethical lapse?

AFAIK the couple lawsuits out there have not been decided, so nothing of the sort has been 'proven'.

Can minors give consent to sexual activity?

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Gender-affirming care is a BUNCH of different things. It's commonplace globally, particularly the wealthy West.

Breast enhancement is gender-affirming care. Breast reduction is also gender-affirming care.
Hair plugs/transplants? Gender-affirming care. Hair removal? Also gender-affirming care.
Procedures like tummy tucks, nose jobs and ear pinning can all qualify as gender-affirming care.

Hormone therapy is also gender-affirming care, as is psychological counselling. Exercise, particularly for hypertrophy, can also be gender-affirming care.

Something as basic as a padded bra? That's gender-affirming care. Corset? Gender-affirming care. Changing hairstyle? Gender-affirming care.


On a personal note, I have two different family friends who have sons who are now on puberty blockers. Neither boy is trans, but both have been prescribed them to deal with medical issues (one for short stature/delayed growth, one for gynecomastia).

These are also examples of gender-affirming care.

Taking puberty blockers means one of these boys will in all likelihood end up taller, heavier and more muscular as an adult than he otherwise would without medical intervention. For the other, it means he likely won't have to spend his teenage years growing breasts. Meaning he avoids potential lifelong psychological issues AND a potential double mastectomy at age 18 or 19.

These boys are lucky that they exist in such a time and place that these drugs are available, and they don't have lawmakers interfering with the decisions that they, their parents and their doctors have made.


If I was living in the US (or the UK, for that matter), I'd be worried that their access to gender-affirming care is at risk of being taken away. Which for the US at least, would seem to run in violation of the fundamental concept of equal protection - why should cisgendered teens have access to gender-affirming care, but transgender teens be denied access?

No, none of that is "gender affirming care". People who have breast reductions/increases/hair transplants/padded or unpadded bras....are not confused and do not need confirmation of their gender. Hairstyle or corset? Seriously? Those are style choices.

What are the long term effects of unnatural chemicals on kids. I guess are about to find out in 20 or 30 years the results of this experiment.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I don't think that's the general attitude among transgender people. They want others to see them as and treat them like they would anyone else of the gender that they see themselves as. Changing their appearance is a way to facilitate that. That's not to say that no one holds that belief, but from my experiences with trans people, it's far from the norm. There's a reason why bottom surgery is relatively uncommon relative to top surgery or hormone treatment.

An adult actor and a Youtube commentator are hardly a representative sample of the transgender community.

The data would suggest that Buck and Blaire aren't in the minority of their group in that regard.

Disclosure, I used Perplexity as a resource:

Available research shows that the majority (77%) of trans people who seek hormones or surgery aim to physically portray traits associated with the binary gender opposite their sex assigned at birth, while a minority (23%) pursue goals that are nonbinary.


So basically, there's something of a catch-22 happening...
"Gender is just a societal construct and shouldn't be tied to sex or considered binary"
up against
"I need to make myself present in a way that conforms to the binary definitions of gender in order to be happy"

 

[essentialsaltes]

Can minors give consent to sexual activity?

To cut to the chase, doctors are not forbidden from treating minors.

 

[durangodawood]

....So basically, there's something of a catch-22 happening...
"Gender is just a societal construct and shouldn't be tied to sex or considered binary"
up against
"I need to make myself present in a way that conforms to the binary definitions of gender in order to be happy"

So theres some theoretical problems with "the discussion".

That no reason to hold up trans people from living the lives they want. (Certain athletic situations notwithstanding imo).

 

[RocksInMyHead]

The data would suggest that Buck and Blaire aren't in the minority of their group in that regard.

Disclosure, I used Perplexity as a resource:

Available research shows that the majority (77%) of trans people who seek hormones or surgery aim to physically portray traits associated with the binary gender opposite their sex assigned at birth, while a minority (23%) pursue goals that are nonbinary.


So basically, there's something of a catch-22 happening...
"Gender is just a societal construct and shouldn't be tied to sex or considered binary"
up against
"I need to make myself present in a way that conforms to the binary definitions of gender in order to be happy"

I'm not sure what your point is anymore, because you keep shifting the goalposts. We were talking about your comparison to BDD, which involves people continuously trying to modify their body to meet an ever-changing standard. Whatever progress they make is "never enough". BDD is a problem because it's self-destructive - people beat themselves up because they cannot attain the body that they think they should have, and injure themselves pushing for more and more. That's not a phenomenon that's generally seen in the trans community, so your comparison falls a bit flat. Most trans people do hormone therapy and maybe have some surgery, but you don't see them continuously going under the knife or undergoing riskier and riskier treatments in pursuit of an unrealistic standard. I thought your point in bringing up those two particular trans people was to point out the extent to which they had managed to make themselves "passing" and claim that that's the standard that trans people in general were aiming for. Which isn't true.

But now you want to talk about how you think they're being inconsistent. That's not actually an argument against the idea of gender-affirming care though; it's just you complaining that they don't "think correctly."

 

[BCP1928]

"Gender is just a societal construct and shouldn't be tied to sex or considered binary"

"But it doesn't look like society is going to let go of it anytime soon, so therefore"

"I need to make myself present in a way that conforms to the binary definitions of gender in order to be happy"

"Or maybe I'll just blow it all off and come out as nonbinary."

 

[rjs330]

I don't think that's the general attitude among transgender people. They want others to see them as and treat them like they would anyone else of the gender that they see themselves as. Changing their appearance is a way to facilitate th

Yes it is. Of course they want people to see them as the opposite sex. Just like those mentioned by Rob. The trans people I've met all do things to be as close to the opposite sex as they can be. Including my best friends daughter. They wear dresses, wigs, undergo hormone treatments, get surgeries to get them as close as tgey can. EXACTLY like those personalities.

 

[rjs330]

"Non-binary" means exactly what it says--that they are refusing to choose between the two options currently available. In my experience, many entirely straight as well as trans young people are taking this up, just out of disgust.

They are taking it up because its trendy and rebellious. Its what teens have always done. Its the thing now to create shock value, to separate themselves from the norm, to stand out.

Ive seen teens doing this since the 60s. That's when I became aware of such things.

Ive raised four teens myself and seen 5 of my grandkids go through the process.

Non-binary, gender fluid no sense is just that. They really aren't. Rhey just say they are. And trans is not that at all.