Are Folks Making America Hate Again?

[MrMoe]

That's a new twist. It used to be, "We are going to build a wall and make Mexico pay for it."

Now is it, "We are going to rebuild Mexico and make America pay for it"?

Or wasn't that your intention? Was your intention that we just tell countries in the South — perhaps by a presidential edict — to get your act together? That's it?

Why didn't I think of that?

Didn’t suggest America pay for it, but we can help them in other ways.

You seem more concerned with America getting their cheap labour instead of fixing the source of the problem. That’s cold blooded.

OK, we hop into our DeLorean and go back a year.

Here we are in 2024.

Now, if only we can persuade Congress to propose a bill with bipartisan support to strengthen border security.

Wait, what?

Following months of negotiations, on February 4, 2024, a bipartisan group of senators released a 370-page bill intended to sharply reduce incentives for migrants to attempt border crossings. The bill included a "border emergency" provision that would automatically require the border to be closed if border encounters reached an average of 5,000 per day over several days. (source)​

Great. Now what?

Senate Republicans swiftly turned against the bill upon its release, after Trump openly said he did not want Joe Biden to score a political win with the legislation. [96]​

On February 7, Senate Republicans blocked the proposal in a floor vote.​

Lankford said on the floor before the vote that a "popular commentator" had told him a month earlier, "'If you try to move a bill that solves the border crisis during this presidential year, I will do whatever I can to destroy you, because I do not want you to solve this during the presidential election.'"​

Two days before the vote, Trump told a radio host, "This is a very bad bill for his career." [97]​

Trump said at a rally days later, "We crushed crooked Joe Biden's disastrous open borders bill," while Biden said, "Every day between now and November, the American people are going to know that the only reason the border is not secure is Donald Trump and his MAGA Republican friends." (source)​

And who shall we blame for the fact that this bill did not pass?

Moving on — we don't have a DeLorean. So, it is what it is.

What is the solution?

As I have said before, it is a complex issue that needs to be guided by justice and mercy.

Some people need to be deported. For many, the best path forward is to let them stay with a path toward legal status. The border needs to be secure, with crossings minimized. There needs to be a clear humanitarian asylum program. And it gets quite complex.

Now, if only we had a Congress that did its job — and a competent President.

Why go back only to February 2024? Why not go back to the very start of Biden’s presidency?

Another question. On June 4, 2024, Biden passed an executive order to shut down the border if illegal crossings reached an average of 2,500 migrants a day in a given week. Why not do this years earlier, instead of at the eleventh hour?

Lord, have mercy. Really?
Ah, so the solution is to tell migrants that they should find a safe country they can integrate into and build a new life there.
Check. They did that.

They came here.

But this isn’t a safe country. I’ve been debating with other members on this thread that say this is a systemically racist, systemically gender bias country. Full of white supremacists and MAGA hat wearing Nazis. That the country’s leader is a racist, xenophobic wannabe dictator who likes to paraphrase Hitler.
You yourself say this country is full of hateful people, and you want them to stay here?! Show some compassion. Show some mercy.

 

[doubtingmerle]

I’m sure there are many American’s that feel resentment at the fact that illegal immigrants are being rewarded with jobs that other Americans might need or want

I think she is crying.

Photo by author using ChatGPT Sora

 

[BCP1928]

We’ve been told over and over again from left wingers that America is a systemically racist, white supremacist country now ruled by a Hitler loving wannabe dictator. If those on the left actually believed that, they would support Trump 100% in deporting these people. Trump removing these vulnerable people out of harms way to countries that will accept them and welcome them with open arms is the greatest mercy.
But since it’s clearly not what they want, it make me question if they actually believe what they claim about America.

What country will accept them and welcome them with open arms? Most of them fled their home countries for their lives.

 

[BCP1928]

Then making where they come from safer should be prioritised.

The majority of illegal immigrants are from Mexico, and Mexico is heading to a potential aging population crisis in about 2050.

Why not fix the problems in the country where they are from so they wouldn’t have to risk their lives coming to America.



We could have stopped the strain by not letting them in, in the first place like Biden did.




Tom Homan is taking care of it. If they can’t return to they’re country they can be deported to another that will accept them.

Stevil basically just implied the president is a Nazi sympathiser, so the biggest mercy I would think is to get these people out of this supposedly systemically racist country lead by a Nazi sympathiser.

The reason is that the immigrants being mainly targeted are those whose presence is constructively legal. (asylum seekers, refugees, etc.) They can work, but because ther presence is legal they are subject to the same wage and labor laws as govern American citizens, and they can complain if they are exploited by their employers. Those who come here just to work illegally without seeking regularized status can be exploited by their employer because they can't complain about substandard pay and working conditions without risking deportation.

 

[stevil]

Didn’t suggest America pay for it, but we can help them in other ways.

You seem more concerned with America getting their cheap labour instead of fixing the source of the problem.

Most USA governments prior to Trump have been working with other countries to try and help stablise them and root out corruption and threats. Remember when Joe Biden as VP was sent to Ukraine to remove Chutkin who was a corrupt prosecutor who was refusing to prosecute certain wealthy elites. That was a official duty/obligation that USA put onto Biden.

Regarding USA/Mexico here is a decent article.

Cartels, Corruption, and Fentanyl: How Can US-Mexico Cooperation Address Shared Security Concerns? - Modern War Institute

For decades, US-Mexico law enforcement and counternarcotics cooperation has been fraught with difficulties stemming from a history of strained relations. These challenges date back to the 1980s, most notably marked by the torture and murder of US Drug Enforcement Administration agent Enrique...

mwi.westpoint.edu

I think it is a difficult challenge and both countries need to work towards closer relations to help Mexico. A problem I see is that under Trump, USA is becoming much more corrupt that it was previously. Trump's own AG shows no interest in prosecuting any Republicans. The SCOTUS have deemed the President immune from the law, court cases against Trump were dissolved merely because he became president again. In the case where he was found guilty of 34 crimes, no punishment was given because he was now president/president elect.

Also, Trump's USA first policy, has USA no longer providing USAID, and his aggressive tariffs approach has USA in adversarial role with the rest of the world (except for Russia).

Trump's approach to dealing with things is to project "strength" and he does this by extorting and bullying other nations rather than respecting them and working with them collaboratively.

But this isn’t a safe country. I’ve been debating with other members on this thread that say this is a systemically racist, systemically gender bias country.

If you compare USA to other developed first world Western nations then USA is a pretty poor country to live in. Low freedoms, lots of racism and gun violence etc.
But compared to countries like Mexico etc where the government is corrupt and gangs rule the roost, USA could be considered safe, especially if people are fleeing organisations that aren't established in USA.

Full of white supremacists and MAGA hat wearing Nazis.

Who has said USA is full of white supremacists and Nazis? I think perhaps you are being massively hyperbolic about what people have said to you.

That the country’s leader is a racist, xenophobic wannabe dictator who likes to paraphrase Hitler.

That's true. Also a misogynist, a rapist, and a convicted felon who doesn't think he should uphold the constitution.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Didn’t suggest America pay for it, but we can help them in other ways.

You seem more concerned with America getting their cheap labour instead of fixing the source of the problem. That’s cold blooded.

You want to help the global South "in other ways." Which other ways do you want America to help the global South?

Somehow, you suggest that I am cold-blooded for not going along with this top-secret "other way to help."

Please tell me what this secret plan of yours does. Who knows? It could be that I support that plan also. I can't tell you if I support your "other way" unless you tell me what it is.

How can you call me cold-blooded for not supporting your plan when you won't tell me what the plan is?

Anyway, I can think of one plan that I recommend for helping the global South — by giving aid through organizations like USAID. But Trump has shut down much of USAID. Do you agree with me that USAID is one way we can help the global South, and that it was wrong for Trump to shut it down?

Why go back only to February 2024? Why not go back to the very start of Biden’s presidency?

Why stop in 2020? Go back to 2007. At that time, there were even more undocumented immigrants in America than there are now.

The past is the past. We need to decide what to do now.

But this isn’t a safe country. I’ve been debating with other members on this thread that say this is a systemically racist, systemically gender-biased country. Full of white supremacists and MAGA hat wearing Nazis. That the country’s leader is a racist, xenophobic wannabe dictator who likes to paraphrase Hitler.

There are problems all over the world.

In general, the United States has been a leader in racial and gender equality.

But there are many people — including our current President — who want to take us backward.

In spite of that, there is much good in America, and many of us love it and want to make it better.

You yourself say this country is full of hateful people, and you want them to stay here?!

There are people here who hate, and people here who love. I am hoping and working to see that love wins.

 

[Bradskii]

The article is from 2017. Didn’t know my posts were so powerful they can go back in time and affect people I’ve never met.

They're not so much powerful as informative as to your views. I mean, this is what we do on the forum. Put forward our views on various topics.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Sept 4 (Reuters) - Hunger reached its highest point in the United States in nearly a decade last year, with 18 million households, or 13.5%, struggling at some point to secure enough food, a Department of Agriculture report released on Wednesday said."

Yes, hunger is a serious issue in America. But while that’s happening, the Trump administration has proposed or enacted deep cuts to programs that help the poorest Americans. Do you agree these people are needy and deserve help?

Here are just a few examples:

SNAP (Food Stamps): Proposed cuts of $220 billion over 10 years (source).

Medicaid: Proposed cuts exceeding $1 trillion over a decade (source).

Section 8 Housing: Proposed 43% cut to rental assistance (source).

LIHEAP: Proposal to eliminate energy assistance for low-income families (source).

College Aid: Elimination of the Federal Supplemental Educational Opportunity Grant (source).

If we care about hunger, we need to protect the programs that feed and house the people most at risk.

 

[doubtingmerle]

How many waves of unlawful migrations can be handled? Legal immigration in the USA is set around 675,000 annually. My guess is that this is set on a balance of humanitarian and sustainable concerns. This ends up being doubled, tripled and to have concerns about it is considered “hateful” by various anointed.

The US can take in Haitians surely but how many? Then there are dozens of other nations to consider, where does it end?

Lukaris, your point is valid. There are many needy people in this world. The United States can help — but you're right that we cannot possibly end all poverty around the world or open our borders to anyone who wants to come in.

Historically, we were very receptive to immigrants. Our Statue of Liberty bears this inscription:

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,​

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;​

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand​

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame​

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name​

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand​

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command​

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.​

'Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!' cries she​

With silent lips. 'Give me your tired, your poor,​

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,​

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,​

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,​

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"​

I love those words and what they have meant for America. In those days, other lands were reaching limits in agricultural land (source) and forests (source). America had wide open spaces, and we invited millions to come here.

Today is a different situation. America now has a much larger population and limited resources. There are limits to how many people we can realistically welcome.

But on the other hand, some migrants are in truly hopeless situations. Can we simply abandon them?

What should we do? I suggest we do what we can.

There need to be limits on how many we let in. We should allow entry to some after proper vetting. But, unlike the statue’s inscription, we cannot offer access to all.

For those currently here illegally, we should review cases individually — offering either a path to legal status or deportation, depending on the facts. Mercy and compassion should guide us, along with justice.

And we should also support programs like USAID to help struggling countries build stability and care for their own.

 

[Laodicean60]

If we care about hunger, we need to protect the programs that feed and house the people most at risk.

If we care about hunger, then we need to budget before the country goes broke, because when that happens, no one can be fed. Does it make sense to you to borrow money to pay for interest on the debt?

Interest Payments Are Exploding

In 2025, the U.S. is projected to spend more on interest than on national defense.

It’s like paying off your credit card with another credit card.

Crowding Out

As more money goes to interest, there’s less available for roads, education, defense, or tax relief.

Investor Confidence

If investors lose confidence, they demand higher interest rates, making debt even more expensive.

Vulnerability

If interest rates stay high or another crisis hits (like a war or pandemic), the U.S. has less room to maneuver.



my signature: “Ferguson’s Law,” Debt which states that any great power that spends more on debt servicing than on defense risks ceasing to be a great power.

 

[trophy33]

If we care about hunger, then we need to budget before the country goes broke, because when that happens, no one can be fed. Does it make sense to you to borrow money to pay for interest on the debt?

Interest Payments Are Exploding

In 2025, the U.S. is projected to spend more on interest than on national defense.

It’s like paying off your credit card with another credit card.

Crowding Out

As more money goes to interest, there’s less available for roads, education, defense, or tax relief.

Investor Confidence

If investors lose confidence, they demand higher interest rates, making debt even more expensive.

Vulnerability

If interest rates stay high or another crisis hits (like a war or pandemic), the U.S. has less room to maneuver.



my signature: “Ferguson’s Law,” Debt which states that any great power that spends more on debt servicing than on defense risks ceasing to be a great power.

There is also the funny thing with the fiat currency - you can print as much USD as you want and so to inflate the interest and the debt away.

However, this would also impact the poor people disproportionately, because their wealth is not in the investment assets.

 

[Laodicean60]

you can print as much USD as you want and so to inflate the interest and the debt away.

In America, the printing of money has been the real reason inequality is widening; the rich get richer. Inflating the debt away is a hidden secret that governments want to do, but it's political suicide to openly admit it.

You're right, it's always the poor that is affected, and the printing of money devalues purchasing power. This is why we are hearing more about fiat backed by some hard asset.

 

[BCP1928]

There is also the funny thing with the fiat currency - you can print as much USD as you want and so to inflate the interest and the debt away.

However, this would also impact the poor people disproportionately, because their wealth is not in the investment assets.

Inflation actually benefits debtors, because the money they have to pay back is cheaper than the money they borrowed. It's taken some indoctrination work to turn that around from the last time Christian populism was politically important in this country. The demand then was for fiat currency:

"You shall not press down upon the brow of labor this crown of thorns; you shall not crucify mankind upon a cross of gold."

 

[Lukaris]

Lukaris, your point is valid. There are many needy people in this world. The United States can help — but you're right that we cannot possibly end all poverty around the world or open our borders to anyone who wants to come in.

Historically, we were very receptive to immigrants. Our Statue of Liberty bears this inscription:

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,​

With conquering limbs astride from land to land;​

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand​

A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame​

Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name​

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand​

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command​

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.​

'Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!' cries she​

With silent lips. 'Give me your tired, your poor,​

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,​

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,​

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,​

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"​

I love those words and what they have meant for America. In those days, other lands were reaching limits in agricultural land (source) and forests (source). America had wide open spaces, and we invited millions to come here.

Today is a different situation. America now has a much larger population and limited resources. There are limits to how many people we can realistically welcome.

But on the other hand, some migrants are in truly hopeless situations. Can we simply abandon them?

What should we do? I suggest we do what we can.

There need to be limits on how many we let in. We should allow entry to some after proper vetting. But, unlike the statue’s inscription, we cannot offer access to all.

For those currently here illegally, we should review cases individually — offering either a path to legal status or deportation, depending on the facts. Mercy and compassion should guide us, along with justice.

And we should also support programs like USAID to help struggling countries build stability and care for their own.

There appears to be a modified replacement program being put together to fill the USAID void. I am not expressing any opinion of it, just passing along information:

A new US humanitarian agency must operate without political blinders | The Strategist

The United States government is considering replacing USAID with a new agency, the US Agency for International Humanitarian Assistance (USIHA), according to documents published by POLITICO. Under the proposed design, the agency will fail its ...

www.aspistrategist.org.au

 

[Laodicean60]

Inflation actually benefits debtors, because the money they have to pay back is cheaper than the money they borrowed.

Yep, our government needs a lot of inflation, but when Trump raises taxes on the rich we won't need as much inflation.

 

[trophy33]

Inflation actually benefits debtors, because the money they have to pay back is cheaper than the money they borrowed.

Yes, that is the point - that it would benefit the debtor - the US government.

But a high inflation would not benefit poor, small debtors - their more or less fixed incomes would not grow as much and as quickly as prices. So they would be even poorer and they would need to borrow even more.

 

[BCP1928]

Yes, that is the point - that it would benefit the debtor - the US government.

But a high inflation would not benefit poor, small debtors - their more or less fixed incomes would not grow as much and as quickly as prices. So they would be even poorer and they would need to borrow even more.

For the Right, that's a feature, not a bug.

 

[trophy33]

For the Right, that's a feature, not a bug.

I think that the parties to the right have a plethora of various policies regarding the poor, regarding the government debts or regarding the welfare system and redistribution. Depends on the country, on the party etc.

 

[bèlla]

Yep, our government needs a lot of inflation, but when Trump raises taxes on the rich we won't need as much inflation.

It is better to view that idea with an understanding of taxation and the numerous loopholes available to minimize its impact. You need to know their source of income and the related cuts and deductions available that offset increases in other areas. If you line it up like a balance sheet you’ll see that in action.

Bear in mind, he wants to reduce capital gains and corporate tax while offering zero taxes on US crypto currencies. Do you realize how much money can be made from the latter not to mention the other? It means you won’t pay anything when you sell and rest assured everyone pulled profits in January.

~bella

 

[Laodicean60]

numerous loopholes available to minimize its impact

I am all for cutting back on the write-offs offs which I used to enjoy.

corporate tax while offering

I'm all for a low corporate tax, but again, with not so many loopholes. I agree about crypto (except for the little people).

I agree with Trump's willingness to raise taxes on high-income earners on all that you mention. It's kinda surprising, but he listens to his constituents.