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Scientists speak out about evidence of Intelligent Design in nature..

SelfSim

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Around 18 months ago I would have agreed with you, these days AI is no artificial idiot.
There use to be a time when one could manipulate the answer supplied by AI by the context of the question.
I asked DeepSeek what was right about hydroplate theory, in the old days AI would have taken the question literally and found everything "right" about the theory with the implication it was accepted science.

DeepSeek's response was much balanced with the emphasis of comparing with mainstream science.

Earlier in this thread I suggested earthquake seismic S and P waves could be used to refute hydroplate theory.
As a challenge to DeepSeek I asked it to model seismic S and P wave trajectories for both mainstream and hydroplate models, it came up with the correct answer for the mainstream model and made a prediction for the hydroplate model.
There is nothing in the literature for the hydroplate model, DeepSeek came up with the answer using reinforcement and unsupervised learning.

Whether the prediction highlighted in yellow is right or wrong requires an expert, my long deceased uncle who was a geophysicist and expert on seismology would have been an ideal candidate. :)
I'm slowly deciding on what to make of these AIs. They are trained on human data, which is, itself, the product of nearly four billion years of evolution on Earth. AI is a sort of a human knowledge compressed object. Its is as much a part of life on Earth, I think, as any of the biological organisms that have evolved here.
(All of which is rather amusing when we, ourselves, haven't come up with a testable understanding of what generalised life even is, from a theoretical physics viewpoint anyway).
 
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Hans Blaster

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None of the things you mention below have a single thing to do with the topic at hand, which is very clearly about understanding how things got the way they are. It had nothing to do with morally questionable inventions or methods. Not. One. Bit. (You forgot to mention thalidomide, PV.)
You don't think anyone should contest nuclear weapons,
Contest what? That they exist? (Not a scientific question) That we shouldn't try to make one? Well, religion missed out on that one.
organ transplants,
Absolutely not, organ transport is a good thing. What is objectionable about that and what has it to do with a creator?
genetic manipulation for "gain of function,"
A viable investigative technique, though with some additional hazards that need accounting for in the protocols.
or various other possible Frankensteinian scenarios where scientists and politicians decide for the public masses what to believe about technology, the future and **cough** ..."appropriate ideals or beliefs"?
This is just paranoid fantasy land and utterly irrelevant to the topic. What does it have to do with pseudoscience like "ID"?
I don't expect to see or find much in the way of any definitive signals in creation from a Creator, and I never really have, especially with the use of the Modern Sciences. If anything, my views for almost 40 years have sounded something like this:

Not going to listen as I have a game on the radio now.
History and Prophecy are a different story, however cryptic and ancient the interpretation and teleology involved may be.
History is the study of the past. Prophecy is the invention of false future. So, yes they are very different stories.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Around 18 months ago I would have agreed with you, these days AI is no artificial idiot.
There use to be a time when one could manipulate the answer supplied by AI by the context of the question.
I asked DeepSeek what was right about hydroplate theory, in the old days AI would have taken the question literally and found everything "right" about the theory with the implication it was accepted science.

DeepSeek's response was much balanced with the emphasis of comparing with mainstream science.

Earlier in this thread I suggested earthquake seismic S and P waves could be used to refute hydroplate theory.
As a challenge to DeepSeek I asked it to model seismic S and P wave trajectories for both mainstream and hydroplate models, it came up with the correct answer for the mainstream model and made a prediction for the hydroplate model.
There is nothing in the literature for the hydroplate model, DeepSeek came up with the answer using reinforcement and unsupervised learning.

Whether the prediction highlighted in yellow is right or wrong requires an expert, my long deceased uncle who was a geophysicist and expert on seismology would have been an ideal candidate. :)
If you feed it real information it can spit it back out in grammatical, if boring, sentences. If it just wanders around the internet it will say really dumb things. I am reminded of an out of date usage of the term "idiot", the "idiot savant" which "knows" the right information, but doesn't understand.
 
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SelfSim

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I don't expect to see or find much in the way of any definitive signals in creation from a Creator, and I never really have, especially with the use of the Modern Sciences. If anything, my views for almost 40 years have sounded something like this:


History and Prophecy are a different story, however cryptic and ancient the interpretation and teleology involved may be.
This person lost it (and me) at the 2:50 mark ...

There are better testable theories of life becoming available. She's not up to date.

ETA: Ahh .. I notice the YouTube was uploaded 3 years ago, which might explain her out-of-datedness. I doubt she'd be willing to be updated now however .. (which is one of the a key distinguishing features of what I mean by 'a belief', I might add).
 
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2PhiloVoid

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This person lost it (and me) at the 2:50 mark ...

There are better testable theories of life becoming available. She's not up to date.

ETA: Ahh .. I notice the YouTube was uploaded 3 years ago, which might explain her out-of-datedness. I doubt she'd be willing to be updated now however .. (which is one of the a key distinguishing features of what I mean by 'a belief', I might add).

Obviously. But since we have you here, I knew you'd do us the solid of citing which scholars in science we should all be learning from today. So, go ahead. Teach us.
 
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SelfSim

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Obviously. But since we have you here, I knew you'd do us the solid of citing which scholars in science we should all be learning from today. So, go ahead. Teach us.
Hmm .. Obviously when it comes to the Life/Intelligence topic, there are many.

I'm currently immersed in Sara Imari Walker's book which she published last year (2024): Life as No One Knows It: The Physics of Life's Emergence. According to that Wiki link (and from her work), she's a legit theoretical physicist and astrobiologist with research interests in the origins of life, astrobiology, physics of life, emergence, complex and dynamical systems, and artificial life. She is currently working out of the Sante Fe Institute and AZU.

Her book is referenced on about 100 mainstream sources in the field and is the most coherent, well researched explanation of life, by a legitimate theoretical physicist, what's more(!) that I have encountered to date .. by far.

Her 250 page book is summarised by the extraordinarily simple definition given early in the book by taking the approach of what life does, rather than what life is:

'Life is the only thing in the universe that can make objects that are composed of many unique, recursively constructed parts'.
 
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Hans Blaster

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This person lost it (and me) at the 2:50 mark ...
That's when she not only moved past her own scientific expertise (formation of planetary systems), but from science to theology.
There are better testable theories of life becoming available. She's not up to date.

ETA: Ahh .. I notice the YouTube was uploaded 3 years ago, which might explain her out-of-datedness. I doubt she'd be willing to be updated now however .. (which is one of the a key distinguishing features of what I mean by 'a belief', I might add).
The abiogenesis part seemed a bit thin, but what do you expect for an exposition that is less than one minute long. (Watched it during intermission.)
 
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2PhiloVoid

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None of the things you mention below have a single thing to do with the topic at hand, which is very clearly about understanding how things got the way they are. It had nothing to do with morally questionable inventions or methods. Not. One. Bit. (You forgot to mention thalidomide, PV.)

Contest what? That they exist? (Not a scientific question) That we shouldn't try to make one? Well, religion missed out on that one.

Absolutely not, organ transport is a good thing. What is objectionable about that and what has it to do with a creator?

A viable investigative technique, though with some additional hazards that need accounting for in the protocols.

This is just paranoid fantasy land and utterly irrelevant to the topic. What does it have to do with pseudoscience like "ID"?

Not going to listen as I have a game on the radio now.

History is the study of the past. Prophecy is the invention of false future. So, yes they are very different stories.

Ah, I see.
Hmm .. Obviously when it comes to the Life/Intelligence topic, there are many.

I'm currently immersed in Sara Imari Walker's book which she published last year (2024): Life as No One Knows It: The Physics of Life's Emergence. According to that Wiki link (and from her work), she's a legit theoretical physicist and astrobiologist with research interests in the origins of life, astrobiology, physics of life, emergence, complex and dynamical systems, and artificial life. She is currently working out of the Sante Fe Institute and AZU.

Her book is referenced on about 100 mainstream sources in the field and is the most coherent, well researched explanation of life, by any legitimate thereotical physicist I have encountered to date .. by far.

Her 250 page book is summarised by the extraordinarily simple definition given early in the book by taking the approach of what life does, rather than what life is:

'Life is the only thing in the universe that can make objects that are composed of many unique, recursively constructed parts'.

Yes, I've heard of her. I saw her the other day on YouTube


By the way, Karin Oberg is only an Astronomer and Astrochemist. So, obviously her specialization would be on things other than those concentrated on by Sara Walker.


 
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2PhiloVoid

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Hmm .. Obviously when it comes to the Life/Intelligence topic, there are many.

I'm currently immersed in Sara Imari Walker's book which she published last year (2024): Life as No One Knows It: The Physics of Life's Emergence. According to that Wiki link (and from her work), she's a legit theoretical physicist and astrobiologist with research interests in the origins of life, astrobiology, physics of life, emergence, complex and dynamical systems, and artificial life. She is currently working out of the Sante Fe Institute and AZU.

Her book is referenced on about 100 mainstream sources in the field and is the most coherent, well researched explanation of life, by a legitimate theoretical physicist, what's more(!) that I have encountered to date .. by far.

Her 250 page book is summarised by the extraordinarily simple definition given early in the book by taking the approach of what life does, rather than what life is:

'Life is the only thing in the universe that can make objects that are composed of many unique, recursively constructed parts'.

I also thought this article on the work of Dr. Betul Kacar is interesting as well,

 
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SelfSim

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I also thought this article on the work of Dr. Betul Kacar is interesting as well,

From a quick glimpse, I think this reference of yours there, reinforces Imari Walker's formalisation of the same style of thinking.
That's not surprising .. Walker is basically riding on the backs of the hard work being done by those at the coalface of this research. (Which is her job to do so).
Very cool .. I'll have a read and ponder on what Kacar is saying but it looks very similar.
 
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dlamberth

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History and Prophecy are a different story, however cryptic and ancient the interpretation and teleology involved may be.
Are you a student of St. Thomas Aquinas? If so, that would explain a lot. I ask because I now know that at some level you are influenced by him. I found my way to The Thomistic Institute and see that Aquinas 101 has some interesting videos that I hope to watch.
 
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SelfSim

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By the way, Karin Oberg is only an Astronomer and Astrochemist. So, obviously her specialization would be on things other than those concentrated on by Sara Walker.
'God' features first and more foremost in her explanations in that YouTube.
She asserts 'God' did this and that .. citing exactly *zip* objective evidence for those claims or for what 'God' is. When she's doing this, she's no scientist (and I don't care what her job title is).
She's nowhere near the calibre of Imari Walker when it comes to objectivity.

She's more like a full on religious Apologist.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Are you a student of St. Thomas Aquinas? If so, that would explain a lot. I ask because I now know that at some level you are influenced by him. I found my way to The Thomistic Institute and see that Aquinas 101 has some interesting videos that I hope to watch.

I have a degree in Philosophy, so I am familiar with Aquinas. But no, I'm not Catholic and I'm not a student (or researcher) of Aquinas specifically. My study centers on modern scholars. But, even so, Aquinas has a small place in my retinue of references for thought and the Thomistic Institute does have a few dozen videos that I like, even if Karen Oberg is the main draw for me in watching their material.

But yeah. Their videos are thoughtfully produced, and I recognize this even if I may not get deep into the Catholic theology. I like the science.
 
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'God' features first and more foremost in her explanations in that YouTube.
She asserts 'God' did this and that .. citing exactly *zip* objective evidence for those claims or for what 'God' is. When she's doing this, she's no scientist (and I don't care what her job title is).
She's nowhere near the calibre of Imari Walker when it comes to objectivity.

She's more like a full on religious Apologist.

Of course. She's Catholic, and Catholics have their own philosophical framework by which they comport mainstream modern science with their theology. She also works with Harvard. So, maybe have a little respect.

At the same time, you need to get out of the mode of shooting down someone like Karin Oberg simply because she frames things the way she does, which if you noticed ISN"T the same as is done by Intelligent Design advocates. In other words, her thinking is in line with BioLogos rather than that of the Discovery Institute. And no one, especially not me, is going to say you have to accept what she says. I'm simply showing you one of angles of competition .........................................................................
 
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@Hans Blaster and @SelfSim

DeepSeek's explanation of the passage of S and P waves through a hydroplate model is purely theoretical and not based on any sources.
The only information I supplied it was a 20 km thick chamber underneath the crust filled with supercritical water.

It initially determined the P wave shadow zone for hydroplate theory as 0⁰-30⁰, but when I requested the calculations it found the zone to be only 0.02⁰- 0.03⁰.
After I pointed out this discrepancy in typical human style it went into excuse mode and offered why 0⁰-30⁰ zone was no longer valid.
The propagation of P waves in the standard model and hydroplate theory is basically the same, it is the propagation of S waves that kills off hydroplate theory.

The calculations and excuses..............

Theoretical.png


 
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SelfSim

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Of course. She's Catholic, and Catholics have their own philosophical framework by which they comport mainstream modern science with their theology. She also works with Harvard. So, maybe have a little respect.

At the same time, you need to get out of the mode of shooting down someone like Karin Oberg simply because she frames things the way she does, which if you noticed ISN"T the same as is done by Intelligent Design advocates. In other words, her thinking is in line with BioLogos rather than that of the Discovery Institute. And no one, especially not me, is going to say you have to accept what she says. I'm simply showing you one of angles of competition .........................................................................
Starting from 3:16 she says:
We hold, consistent with, though not proven by the Big Bang theory, that God created the whole cosmos in this meaning of the term but within his created reality, scientific inquiry can reveal the secondary or instrumental causes through which God, as the primary cause has acted to develop his creation. With this interpretive lens, we can look again at the Biblical account of the creation of living things and note that the first life vegetation appears as God draws it out of the Earth with his speech. That is, life does not appear out of nothing in Genesis, but rather appears as God develops or transforms his creation. If a convincing scientific theory of the origins of life was to emerge, this would not remove God as the creator of all living things, but would rather reveal the precise secondary causes he used to transform non-living matter into living beings.
However, Imari Walker points out that Assembly theory, (at the base of their Life theory), aims to tell us how the universe can design and construct itself, (with life being the best example of that physics).
So, as Assembly theory explains a self designing, self constructing universe, It would seem there is no role for Oberg's complex, primary cause 'creator of the cosmos'. Assembly theory is consistent with a low complexity, low entropy initial state of the universe.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Of course. She's Catholic,
Where'd you get that? Does it matter?
and Catholics have their own philosophical framework by which they comport mainstream modern science with their theology.
That's the rumor. Their best plan is to not say anything and hope those in the pews don't notice the problems. At least that's what they tried with us.
She also works with Harvard.
I didn't know that since I looked up her papers on ADS (which happens to be at Harvard, and we're all on it) to see what her work was on. CfA? SAO? Dept. Astronomy?
So, maybe have a little respect.
Oh good grief. Being "with Harvard" (as you oddly put it) doesn't grant special privileges to avoid criticism for using your scientific credentials to promote theology.
At the same time, you need to get out of the mode of shooting down someone like Karin Oberg simply because she frames things the way she does, which if you noticed ISN"T the same as is done by Intelligent Design advocates.
ID advocates (or at least those at DI) pretend that there motivations aren't theological, so they rarely talk so explicitly theologically. (Or at least they used to. The mask has been coming off for a few years.) I criticize them first and foremost for their lies about their motivations and purpose. Once that is done, they can get the same response that this video has gotten.
In other words, her thinking is in line with BioLogos rather than that of the Discovery Institute.
Work like this gets what it deserves.
And no one, especially not me, is going to say you have to accept what she says. I'm simply showing you one of angles of competition .........................................................................
It is no competition for anything serious or scientific.
 
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SelfSim

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Actually, another consequence of this Assembly theory is that we should not expect objects with a high assembly number to ever form spontaneously. (Assembly number is a measure of the complexity of an object, defined as the minimal number of joining operations, or steps, needed to construct it from basic 'building blocks'). This dramatically differs from standard physics where physicists typically say that anything that can possibly exist has a low, but nonetheless finite, probability to fluctuate into existence spontaneously, anywhere, due to random quantum or thermodynamic events.

Those Physicists often think that their theories refute ID, the idea of the spontaneous formation of any object anywhere in the universe with no memory required to build it, is actually the greatest argument for it .. it implies every point in space and time contains the design of every object. This is the same thiinking behind the famous Boltzmann brain argument.

However, based on the predictions of Assembly theory, high assembly objects cannot fluctuate into material existence spontaneously on their own. Every evolved object must come with many others related to it ... which thus stands as a stark counter-argument to ID.
 
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Around 18 months ago I would have agreed with you, these days AI is no artificial idiot.
There use to be a time when one could manipulate the answer supplied by AI by the context of the question.
I asked DeepSeek what was right about hydroplate theory, in the old days AI would have taken the question literally and found everything "right" about the theory with the implication it was accepted science.

DeepSeek's response was much balanced with the emphasis of comparing with mainstream science.


I'm curious as to how DeepSeek answers this question that I posed to chatGPT

my question:

what is the heat source within the moon Enceladus that causes the water to geyser?


ChatGPT said:

The heat source within Saturn's moon Enceladus that powers its water geysers is primarily tidal heating caused by gravitational interactions with Saturn and neighboring moons.

How Tidal Heating Works on Enceladus:

  1. Gravitational Flexing – Enceladus follows an elliptical orbit around Saturn, meaning its distance from the planet constantly changes.
  2. Varying Gravitational Forces – As it moves closer to and farther from Saturn, the gravitational pull changes, causing the moon to be repeatedly stretched and compressed.
  3. Frictional Heating – This flexing generates friction within Enceladus’s icy crust and interior, producing heat.
  4. Cryovolcanism – The heat keeps an underground ocean liquid and powers the geysers that erupt through fractures, particularly at the "tiger stripes" near the moon’s south pole.

Additional Heat Contributions:

  • Radioactive Decay – Some residual heat may come from the decay of radioactive elements inside the moon, though this is considered a minor source compared to tidal heating.
  • Chemical Interactions – Hydrothermal activity at the ocean floor could also contribute heat, as water interacts with the rocky core.
Evidence of Subsurface Activity:

  • NASA's Cassini spacecraft detected silica particles and organic molecules in the geysers, suggesting hydrothermal vents similar to those found at Earth's deep-sea ridges.
In short, Enceladus stays active because Saturn's gravity is constantly kneading it, keeping its interior warm enough for liquid water to persist and erupt into space.
 
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