Woman in Woman's Restroom in Tucson Walmart confronted by sheriff's deputies; One deputy insisted she “looked like a man”

[Pommer]

Some women who have been assaulted aren’t comfortable being around men alone. It’s more of a perceived danger than actual danger.

I thought the thread‘s OP case was about a woman being accosted in the woman’s room by (male) cops because she was not suspected of violating a non-existent law.

 

[Pommer]

Free will isn't free of consequences.

That’s right, if someone doesn’t “look right” then they can be accosted in the gender-correct restroom. If she had a nice dress on, she probably wouldn’t have been accosted by the local constabulary.

 

[Bradskii]

That’s not the point.

The point is MEN, regardless what they identify as or not, DO NOT belong in women’s restrooms.

So a transexual, born male, who is transitioning to female, is in a bar. With some girl friends. All good looking gals. They're having a good time and not causing any problem. Lots of guys who have had a few drinks are eyeing them up.

You have no idea which girl was born male. Do you want me to point her out and then you demand that she use the men's room? I mean, you used upper case above. They DO NOT belong in the women's restroom. Is that what you want, a good looking girl having to push past the boys and go into the men's?

Don't see a problem with that? People are worried about women being sexually attacked by transexuals (as if they'd go to all that trouble to do so). But you don't have a problem with this girl waiting with the guys for a cubicle to become available?

Really?

 

[ozso]

That’s right, if someone doesn’t “look right” then they can be accosted in the gender-correct restroom. If she had a nice dress on, she probably wouldn’t have been accosted by the local constabulary.

When a woman goes out of her way to look like man, and then gets mistaken for a man, that's a situation she created.

Women can pose as men and men can pose as women all they want to, that's their right, but everybody else shouldn't be expected to figure it out. In reality it can be confusing as heck.

 

[Pommer]

When a woman goes out of her way to look like man, and then gets mistaken for a man, that's a situation she created.

We both agree.
You blame her; I blame society too immature to deal with an odd occurrence now-and-again.

Women can pose as men and men can pose as women all they want to, that's their right, but everybody else shouldn't be expected to figure it out. In reality it can be confusing as heck.

Maybe we should adopt the hijab & burqa?

 

[ozso]

We both agree.
You blame her; I blame society too immature to deal with an odd occurrence now-and-again.

What's immature, and odd as you put it, is adults role playing something they're not in real life. And then thowing a tantrum when someone doesn't get it right.

Maybe we should adopt the hijab & burqa?

Maybe we shouldn't expect people to not be mislead when someone purposely appears to be something they're not.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Look, if you are.trying to look like a man and enter the womens room you should be checked out. How does anyone know you aren't one? Part of this is on her.

This is getting into free speech territory - the government (police) harassing you because of the way that you are dressed (assuming that your clothing itself does not break any laws) would, on the surface, seem to violate the 1st Amendment.

Because we KNOW for a fact that men HAVE assaulted women in the lady's room.

Women have assaulted women in the ladies' room too. Should they be checked?

Police have the right to conduct a search or detain you if they have reasonable suspicion that a crime has occurred. Arizona has no laws about who may or may not use a particular restroom, so the mere presence of a male-appearing person in the restroom is not a crime. The potential for a crime occurring does not constitute probable cause - otherwise police would just pull over every Dodge Charger preemptively.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Virginia family sues school system for $30 million over student's sexual assault in bathroom

A teenager and her parents have filed a $30 million lawsuit against a Virginia school system after she was sexually assaulted in a women’s restroom by a male student.

apnews.com

This one has been discussed many, many times on here. The perpetrator was not trans and didn't identify as trans or dress as a girl in order to gain access to the bathroom.

Bristol transgender woman jailed for rape

Lexi-Rose Crawford, 24, is sentenced to nine years in jail for raping someone while on licence.

www.bbc.com

Didn't happen in a bathroom.

Here’s another one

Transgender woman convicted of sexually assaulting 10-year-old girl in bathroom

A Wyoming transgender woman was convicted Thursday of sexually assaulting a 10-year-old girl inside a bathroom.

www.aol.com

Happened in a private residence.

Here’s another one

Transgender woman arrested accused of sexually assaulting teen in Walmart bathroom

31-year-old Sean Ojeda, who is currently transitioning to a woman, was arrested last week for allegedly assaulting a teen inside a Walmart bathroom.

www.kxii.com

That was a men's restroom, and a boy was assaulted, not a girl.

So far, you're 0/4. Remember, the claim was that trans women are assaulting women in public restrooms.

 

[rjs330]

Personally I wouldn't be yelling for help, or calling the police, especially if it is a trans.

But you wouldn't know. And I don't think trsns is the issue here. This woman was doing everything she can to look like a man. And she wasn't trans. If you are really trying to look look like a man, trans or not, and are succeeding so well that people think you are one then you need to accept the consequences of that. And one of those is some may believe you are man going into the women's room and doing something you shouldn't be doing.

 

[rjs330]

Raising the profile of anti-trans rhetoric may have been a factor in assuming that it was important to keep the "wrong" sort of people out of bathrooms, or that certain kinds of appearances defined a "real" woman.

I dont think thats necessarily true. As a society we have always been separated by sex in public bathrooms when we started to build big bathrooms. Men's and Women's rooms have been the norm. Women didn't want, and still don't by the way, men in the womens room. And if a man went in the ladies room he would be removed post haste.

The wrong sort of person in the ladies room is a man. And if you look like a man you should expect to be challenged. If you look like a woman you won't be.

 

[rjs330]

What was the crime you claim they had "reasonable suspicion" of? As has been pointed out, Arizona does not have any "bathroom laws." As such, it seems the police had no reason to conduct a Terry stop and could easily have waited to ask for her ID when she left the bathroom. Though I have to wonder if they asked her for ID; the fact she felt the need to lift her skirt for them would suggest (though is not evidence) that they refused to accept her ID as evidence of her sex.

The possible crime is assault or unlawful surveillance. Have men gone into women's barhroom and assaulted them or done surreptitious surveillance? Needed to lift her skirt? I don't think she was dressed like a woman. She was trying to look like a man and was successful.

 

[rjs330]

That’s right, if someone doesn’t “look right” then they can be accosted in the gender-correct restroom. If she had a nice dress on, she probably wouldn’t have been accosted by the local constabulary.

She was trying to look like a man and succeeded. If that's what she wants then that's fine. But she should accept the consequences of that. Which means some may mistake her for a man. Why is that so difficult for people to understand?

 

[rjs330]

I blame society too immature to deal with an odd occurrence now-and-again.

Immature? The immature ones are the people doing it and expecting society to figure it out even though the person is really trying to look like the opposte sex.

Society is trying to protect women who hapoen to be assaulted by men now and then in the ladies room. Or surreptitiously surveilled by one.

I blame people who are too immature to recognize this.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

She was trying to look like a man and succeeded. If that's what she wants then that's fine. But she should accept the consequences of that. Which means some may mistake her for a man. Why is that so difficult for people to understand?

People mistaking her for a man and police harassing her for it are two different issues.

 

[essentialsaltes]

It's heartening that when necessary, people have no difficulty understanding the difference between sex, gender presentation and gender identity.

 

[rjs330]

This is getting into free speech territory - the government (police) harassing you because of the way that you are dressed (assuming that your clothing itself does not break any laws) would, on the surface, seem to violate the 1st Amendment.

They didnt bother when she was on the street or in the store. No one cared what she was wearing or what she looked like. It wasn't until she went into a women's private space that someone took notice.

Police have the right to conduct a search or detain you if they have reasonable suspicion that a crime has occurred.

Nope. They may stop you if they have reasonable suspicion that a crime is occurring, is about to occurr, or has occurred. And since men have committed crimes in women in the ladies room then they have reasonable suspicion because HE'S NOT SUPPOSED TO BE THERE. Why is that so hard to understand. They are called WOMENS bathrooms. There is even a lable on the door or wall to let EVERYONE know. Which then leads to a reasonable suspicion that a man is doing something he shouldn't be doing because he's someplace he's not supposed to be.

Just like officers could check out that Dodge Charger if they see it where it's not supposed to be.

 

[rjs330]

People mistaking her for a man and police harassing her for it are two different issues.

They are. They didnt contact her for looking like a man. They contacted her because she looked like a man AND was in a WOMENS bathroom. Completely ignoring the second part of the issue is patently absurd.

 

[The IbanezerScrooge]

They are. They didnt contact her for looking like a man. They contacted her because she looked like a man AND was in a WOMENS bathroom. Completely ignoring the second part of the issue is patently absurd.

Which is not a crime in the state of Arizona. There are no laws on the books stating that men cannot enter women's restrooms in the state of Arizona (that you agree or disagree with the lack of laws is immaterial.) So, what was the probable cause for the cops to enter the restroom and question this woman?

 

[RocksInMyHead]

They didnt bother when she was on the street or in the store. No one cared what she was wearing or what she looked like. It wasn't until she went into a women's private space that someone took notice.

Nope. They may stop you if they have reasonable suspicion that a crime is occurring, is about to occurr, or has occurred. And since men have committed crimes in women in the ladies room then they have reasonable suspicion because HE'S NOT SUPPOSED TO BE THERE. Why is that so hard to understand. They are called WOMENS bathrooms. There is even a lable on the door or wall to let EVERYONE know. Which then leads to a reasonable suspicion that a man is doing something he shouldn't be doing because he's someplace he's not supposed to be.

Just like officers could check out that Dodge Charger if they see it where it's not supposed to be.

If the solution to the issue is that all women must present as recognizably female or risk getting harassed by law enforcement for performing normal bodily functions in their designated space, that's a free speech problem. If it is acknowledged that women can dress in men's clothes and have short hair, then the reasonable assumption is that a person with short hair and wearing men's clothing going into a women's bathroom is most likely a woman.

 

[NxNW]

She was trying to look like a man

Says who?

But she should accept the consequences of that.

What consequences are appropriate?