Trump, Vance and Zelenskyy spar over Russian war in tense exchange at White House

[Michie]

Trump’s refusal to grant key Zelenskyy demand led to explosive Oval Office clash​

 

[RileyG]

Especially since US is not against Russia any more.
I hope Ukraine can win with European help. Certainly cannot depend on US any more,

I can only pray for peace and God’s will be done!

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

What is the cost of this plan and what is the leverage the Ukrainians have against Russia to procure this? You want to prosecute Russia for war crimes? What does this mean? Putin in prison. So are you suggesting a total death war in which millions die to accomplish this and this assumes that nukes will not be used by any side?

Are you prepared to levy the cost of millions dead to accomplish this justice? This moral end to the war? For once I would like the pro war crowd to admit what the cost of victory would be.

You are framing self defense and national sovereign as "pro-war".

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

You are framing self defense and national sovereign as "pro-war".

If you are in favour of the war continuing (let's concede the morality of it for now), then you are by definition pro war. You are willing to see the lives of people expended in order to prosecute a morally righteous crusade against Russia for democracy and liberty, right? Well, if you are proud of this, why can't you admit the cost? How many millions need to die in order for Zelensky's 2022 peace plan to be accomplished? You want the good guys to win right? Regardless of the cost right?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

If you are in favour of the war continuing (let's concede the morality of it for now), then you are by definition pro war. You are willing to see the lives of people expended in order to prosecute a morally righteous crusade against Russia for democracy and liberty, right? Well, if you are proud of this, why can't you admit the cost? How many millions need to die in order for Zelensky's 2022 peace plan to be accomplished? You want the good guys to win right? Regardless of the cost right?

There was a cost to defeat the Nazis also. Was that "pro war"?

So it is not Russia at fault for launching missiles into civilian buildings. Ukraine is as fault for not accepting their terms of surrender. Is that about right? Is that how you see it?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

There was a cost to defeat the Nazis also. Was that "pro war"?

So it is not Russia at fault for launching missiles into civilian buildings. Ukraine is as fault for not accepting their terms of surrender. Is that about right? Is that how you see it?

The war the allies fought against the Nazis/Japanese was a war of Total capitulation in which total victory was demanded. The cost was millions dead and use of strategic bombing, Nuclear weapons. If you want to launch a war of that scale, wherein both sides have Nuclear weapons, then advocate for that. I've already conceded the morality of your position. I simply want to know what the cost you want paid to be. In the case of the Allies/Soviets it was 30 something million.

Do you want to double or triple that number?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

The war the allies fought against the Nazis/Japanese was a war of Total capitulation in which total victory was demanded. The cost was millions dead and use of strategic bombing, Nuclear weapons. If you want to launch a war of that scale, wherein both sides have Nuclear weapons, then advocate for that. I've already conceded the morality of your position. I simply want to know what the cost you want paid to be. In the case of the Allies/Soviets it was 30 something million.

Do you want to double or triple that number?

No, but do you want to surrender Ukraine?

 

[Jo555]

Zelensky and Ukraine need to stop looking to people, especially ones that talk as if they are God and have God control, and look to God foremost.

God is still in control and when Trump was talking as if he is God and trying to pressure Zelensky into treating him like God, he was off.

Prayers needed.

 

[Jo555]

Zelensky and Ukraine need to stop looking to people, especially ones that talk as if they are God and have God control, and look to God foremost.

God is still in control and when Trump was talking as if He is God and trying to pressure Zelensky into treating him like God, he was off.

Prayers needed.

Ukraine needs to look to God and pray, then tell their story to the world and let God work.

 

[BobRyan]

Absolutely disgraceful and shameful.

Trump and Vance absolutely devoid of class, tact and statesmanship.

Sad but true.

If a video clip of that sort of thing had existed in 2024 - Trump would have lost in a landslide.

I am glad they chose note to shoot themselves in the foot like that - until a month after Jan 20

=========================== AND THEN ...
Zelensky's repeated pokes at Trump leading up to the horrible ending event.

Trump appeals for peace and ending bloodshed citing the fact that a number of cities in Ukraine were reduced to rubble so there is a strong incentive to seek for peace.

Zelensky then argues that Trump's info must be coming from Russia.

A number of exchanges happened where nothing at all was said in response to Zelensky's repeated pokes at the bear.
Until finally that ending event.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

No, but do you want to surrender Ukraine?

I want Ukraine to come to terms and I think that will end this war. I don't really care what happens to Ukraine if I am honest but I don't think the cost you and others are demanding is worth it.

 

[High Fidelity]

I see people moaning about a suit as well.

Half the pastors I’ve seen or more can’t even be bothered to wear a suit to preach, or people wear a suit to church.

I wonder how many of those criticising Zelensky for not wearing a suit to visit Trump think it’s appropriate to wear shorts and t-shirt to commune with God in church.

 

[expos4ever]

David Brooks of the NY Times on what happened today in the Oval Office:

I was nauseated. All my life I had a certain idea about America - that we are a flawed country but we're fundamentally a force for good in the world: we defeated the Soviet Union, we defeated fascism, we did the Marshall Plan. We make mistakes like Iraq and Vietnam but they're usually mistakes out of stupidity, naivete, and arrogance, not because we're ill intentioned. What I've seen over last six weeks is United States behaving vilely; vilely to our friends in Canada and Mexico, vilely to our friends in Europe and today was the bottom of the barrel, vilely to a man who is defending western values at great personal risk to him and his countrymen. Donald Trump believes in one thing: he believes that might makes right and in that he agrees with Vladimir Putin - they're birds of a feather and he and Putin together are trying to create a world that safer for gangsters where ruthless people can thrive and we saw the product of that effort today in the Oval Office. It's a moral injury to see the country I love behaving this way.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

David Brooks of the NY Times on what happened today in the Oval Office:

I was nauseated. All my life I had a certain idea about America - that we are a flawed country but we're fundamentally a force for good in the world: we defeated the Soviet Union, we defeated fascism, we did the Marshall Plan. We make mistakes like Iraq and Vietnam but they're usually mistakes out of stupidity, naivete, and arrogance, not because we're ill intentioned. What I've seen over last six weeks is United States behaving vilely; vilely to our friends in Canada and Mexico, vilely to our friends in Europe and today was the bottom of the barrel, vilely to a man who is defending western values at great personal risk to him and his countrymen. Donald Trump believes in one thing: he believes that might makes right and in that he agrees with Vladimir Putin - they're birds of a feather and he and Putin together are trying to create a world that safer for gangsters where ruthless people can thrive and we saw the product of that effort today in the Oval Office. It's a moral injury to see the country I ove behaving this way.

Does David Brooks think the West won because of their pure heart or something? Or that might doesn't determine what happens in geopolitics? The USA is not where it is today because it is a peaceful country. It's where it is today because of hard force.

The USA has made more mistakes than Mr Brooks cares to admit. WW1. The Spanish American war. Libya. It's unqualified support for Israel. Let's not pretend that the USA is somehow special or that it's global empire coming to an end is a bad thing.

 

[chevyontheriver]

The best thing for the USA would have been to get out of Ukraine totally. Why does funding a proxy war with Russia benefit the USA when the two could be trading and be partners on a whole host of initiatives? Perhaps to counteract the rise of China? Which I think Trump is aiming for.

Best for the USA is not always best for the military-industrial complex. They call a lot of shots in America. They usually get what they want. They wanted a proxy war with Russia and they got it. Lots of money thrown at them, they get to develop new toys, and they get to test the new toys without any Americans put in harm's way.

You act as if Trump has to bow before Zelensky.

Biden did. Trump didn't realize he was supposed to continue bowing to the Z man.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Harris was no prize candidate. But at least she would have stuck with Ukraine and not Putin.
We are in a terrible mess and it is getting worse.
I do not have an answer. Things go from bad to worse.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Harris was no prize candidate. But at least she would have stuck with Ukraine and not Putin.
We are in a terrible mess and it is getting worse.
I do not have an answer. Things go from bad to worse.

She would have continued a Total death war in which there was no chance of Ukraine winning and no one on that side can tell us how the Ukrainians win.

 

[High Fidelity]

She would have continued a Total death war in which there was no chance of Ukraine winning and no one on that side can tell us how the Ukrainians win.

I’m guessing you think Europe should have rolled over and accepted their Nazi occupiers?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I’m guessing you think Europe should have rolled over and accepted their Nazi occupiers?

No, but they could have gone about it better. I don't believe guaranteeing Poland when you cannot defend it and then surrendering it to the USSR was a good or practical thing to do as all it allowed was Germany to defeat France and Isolate Britain. I don't believe allying with a regime like the USSR against Fascism was good, as Communism and Fascism were both equally terrible. I don't believe that declaring your intent to fight a total war with any enemy is good because all it does is empower the enemy and encourage them to fight to the bitter end as Germany did in WW2, which they did at a horrific cost to both themselves and the allies. I don't like how the USA only helped the British when the cost of it was the British Empire.

I'm a realist first and foremost, and don't believe in fighting Total death wars for the sake of Liberal Democracy, which I'm no big fan of. I see many here arguing for the war to continue but no one is saying that the cost is worth it, because they either don't want to think about the cost or ideologically possessed.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

She would have continued a Total death war in which there was no chance of Ukraine winning and no one on that side can tell us how the Ukrainians win.

But you can certainly tell us how the Russians win.

I am still pondering why Trump and Vance set him up and pounced on him that way...making him the enemy.
And now you follow along also.

I remember the day when anything pro Russia was viewed as communism. We had some dark days here in America over that.

Now because of Trump Russia is our friend and our former allies are not so much any more and being even more distanced.

Is that making America great? I don't think so..