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Trump: Ukraine “Never Should Have Started War” with Russia

7thKeeper

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Yeah. And we called him Franklin Roosevelt, and he was such an "awesome" president that congress immediately passed the 22 amendment to limit presidential terms. Are you suggesting right now, that if Trump declared a national emergency that installed him as president until he "feels it otherwise necessary", people would not be comparing him to (forgive my needy star wars reference) chancellor palipatine?
Right now? Yes, they would and rightfully so. You know what's the difference? You keep ignoring it. I love the fact that I pointed it out already in the post you quoted, and you still keep of ignoring.

There's an active war going on on Ukraine's territory. There isn't in the USA.

But please, keep ignoring this because you need to. I'm sure you will.
 
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rambot

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Trump has shown more kindness to Putin than to Canada, the USA's greatest ally.

Why bother to suggest that Trump believes America is more important to himself? His relationship to Putin is more important than any relationship the USA has had for the last 120 years.

It's perverse that sycophants are just willing to "Well yeah. I guess Putin is okay and Ukraine is awful...
and Canada is awful
and Europe is awful.

All those people with whom we've had stable, functional trading relationships

What said state of affairs The Trump Republicans have become; willing to throw away functional relationships because Trump says so.
 
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rambot

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Winton Churchill suspended elections during WWII.
NOBODY calls him a dictator.

It's just desperate attempts to justify what Trump is saying. As has been stated, Trump only uses convenient labels, not labels that reflect reality
 
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stevil

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As always, context is important. From the BBC (I added the underline):

Zelensky's first five-year term of office was due to come to an end in May 2024. However, Ukraine has been under martial law since the Russian invasion in February 2022, which means elections are suspended.
These people know this. They are just trolling, as well as frantically trying to distract from the disastrous news that Trump is siding with Putin to try and divvy up Ukraine's resources.

If Ukraine does a mineral deal with USA and Trump starts publicly speaking well of Zelensky, these guys will all of a sudden pivot on a dime and be parroting Trump's praise. It's all part of the propaganda machine.
 
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Say it aint so

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Ukraine is corrupt
The irony is that reputation is there largely because of Russian corruption.
They have been trying to root that out to the extent of even running off Putin's puppet of a Ukraine president.
Maybe that's another reason why Russia invaded.
 
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Landon Caeli

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I don't understand this. How is Ukraine corrupt? Let's set the elections aside, and discuss other reasons why Zelensky and Ukraine is being seen as corrupt.

Iron Mike Ditka would not support this language, IMO.

74922125.jpg.0.jpg
 
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linux.poet

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And they would be whomever God has chosen. You literally said so yourself. So if Putin rules Russia then it is God's will. If Putin invades a sovereign country then it is God's will. If hundreds of thousands die because of this maniacs perverted desires then...is it still God's will?
It is. God takes full responsibility for all of that.

Isaiah 45:7 said:
I form light and create darkness,
I make weal and create woe;
I the Lord do all these things.

We are also arrogant if we question God’s sovereign will:

Job 38:1-7 said:
Then the Lord answered Job from the whirlwind and said, “Who is this who darkens the divine plan
By words without knowledge?

Now tighten the belt on your waist like a man,
And I shall ask you, and you inform Me!
Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding, Who set its measurements? Since you know.
Or who stretched the measuring line over it? On what were its bases sunk?
Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang togetherAnd all the sons of God shouted for joy?

There is a distinction between God’s moral will (what he intends for human beings to do), and His sovereign will (what He sovereignly ordains to occur), but God takes full responsibility for events, both good and bad.

Nah. That's too hard to do because it involves personal responsibility. It means that you yourself have to decide the difference between good and evil. Rather than being told.
Deciding what is good and evil is the epitome of arrogance and may even be abusive. What happens when my right is your wrong? What happens when my wrong is your right? Then we fight and kill.

It is necessary to defer to an authority for right and wrong that is greater than ourselves, to have an agreed upon system of morality that we all agree to. In the West, that is something called Rule of Law. Unless you are a fugitive, you likely have decided, as part of your “personal responsibility”, to submit yourself to this concept and the laws of the Australian government. Likewise, it is the system of rule of law that tells you that a sovereign nation called Ukraine does not deserve to be invaded and its people killed, because that is an affront to the laws the Ukrainians have decided. So in the end you have decided nothing except to trumpet the Western morality system of rule of law, which is greater than yourself, and which you have been told by the Australian government and the people there.

Personal responsibility is not to decide what morality is, for that is impossible, but to obey and conform to the moral laws you say you uphold as correct. You are personally responsible for obeying Australian law. Likewise, I uphold Biblical morality as correct and therefore I am responsible for acting in accordance with that morality. (Incidentally I have no trouble with laws through Romans 13.)
And on that basis God must take full responsibility for appointing Adolf Hitler and the Holocaust. It makes the idea of a loving God a terrible joke.
He does take such responsibility. But it doesn’t make the idea of a loving God a terrible joke because God does not indiscriminately love everyone. He loves believers in Christ. Now he wants everyone to accept the and become believers, but in his sovereignty, not all will.

Romans 9:14-22 said:
What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? Far from it! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I have mercy, and I will show compassion to whomever I show compassion.” So then, it does not depend on the person who wants it nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very reason I raised you up, in order to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the earth.” So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” On the contrary, who are you, you foolish person, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does the potter not have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one object for honorable use, and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction?
If the Lord hardened Pharaoh, he also hardened Hitler. Frankly, many scholars argue that God predicted the Holocaust in the “dry bones” passage in Ezekiel years before it happened! It was always part of the sovereign plan of God.

But it while it is not very loving to the Jewish people who got killed, who does God love?

Romans 9:23-29 said:
And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon objects of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, namely us, whom He also called, not only from among Jews, but also from among Gentiles, as He also says in Hosea:

“I will call those who were not My people, ‘My people,’
And her who was not beloved, ‘beloved.’”
And in the place where it was said “You are not my people”
There they will be called sons of the living God.

Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “Though the number of the sons of Israel may be like the sand of the sea, the remnant will be saved; And just as Isaiah foretold:
“If the Lord of armies had not left us descendants,
We would have become like Sodom, and would have been like Gomorrah.”

This is more like the love that protects God’s family. It’s like if you were in the middle of a war zone with your family, your priority wouldn’t be to help everyone, it would be to guide your family to safety. Believers in Christ are God’s family and His concern is loving them and guiding them through their respective lives. It’s not to save everyone from tyranny. He will sacrifice those intended for wrath on behalf of those who are being saved.

It goes back to what I said in the beginning: we are living in a fallen world, and eventually we will need to learn to accept it.
 
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QvQ

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Although I can understand Ukraine,
I am not rah rah team
Wars are to be avoided and ended through negotiation
If the negotiations that end the war could be done before the war, then no war.
Rah Rah Team where everyone chooses up sides and supports "our side" is what starts and prolongs wars.
I have not liked the support, total unquestioned support of war on the Ukrainian side that happened under Biden
 
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linux.poet

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It seems like there is more in life that we are not allowed to talk about, than what we are.
This is the unbeliever debate section of the forum, and many jokes cannot be told due to the profanity rules on the forums.
 
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7thKeeper

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It seems like there is more in life that we are not allowed to talk about, than what we are.
I do think I could tell it here, I'd just need to censor one word which wouldn't even ruin the joke. And it doesn't disparage anyone or make fun of anyone or is cruel towards anyone. It's just plain offensive and in bad taste. So regular Jimmy Carr.
 
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Landon Caeli

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My sources blame much of the corruption found in Ukraine, to be a result of Soviet era integration... Into Ukraine.

In fact, sources say, "Ukraine is more than 30 spots ahead of Russia on the 2022 Rule of Law Index."
 
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Landon Caeli

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Although I can understand Ukraine,
I am not rah rah team
Wars are to be avoided and ended through negotiation
If the negotiations that end the war could be done before the war, then no war.
Rah Rah Team where everyone chooses up sides and supports "our side" is what starts and prolongs wars.
I have not liked the support, total unquestioned support of war on the Ukrainian side that happened under Biden
At the same time, bad behavior should be discouraged, right? And stealing your neighbors land should be made, 'more difficult'..? So as to not make a habit out of it.

I don't know, is that true?
 
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Landon Caeli

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Winton Churchill suspended elections during WWII.
NOBODY calls him a dictator.

It's just desperate attempts to justify what Trump is saying. As has been stated, Trump only uses convenient labels, not labels that reflect reality
I don't believe it's a "Trump" supporter issue, using myself as an example. As critics and outspoken individuals from Russia continue falling to their deaths from tall buildings, I think I have an idea where the corruption has it's roots.

This is a spiritual battle between cold bloodedness and mercy. I side with mercy.
 
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stevil

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At the same time, bad behavior should be discouraged, right? And stealing your neighbors land should be made, 'more difficult'..? So as to not make a habit out of it.

I don't know, is that true?
We don't want a world were countries built up armies and military might in order to expand their county by consuming other "weaker" countries. USA and her military might have been a big benefit to peace around the world. Even though countries like Russia and China still have expansionist ambitions, largely it has been because of the presence and ideals of USA that has kept them at bay.

If USA goes all internal, "what's in it for me?" then Russia will continue to expand into neighboring countries (hell, they took on Ukraine and gained land, so who's next?). China, watching all this will then be emboldened and will go after Taiwan, and then whichever neighbouring country tickles their fancy after that.

Standing up for Ukraine in defending herself from an invader tells everyone that in this global world expanding by military might, killing people, bombing buildings etc, is not the way.
 
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Landon Caeli

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God does not indiscriminately love everyone. He loves believers in Christ. Now he wants everyone to accept the and become believers, but in his sovereignty, not all will.


If the Lord hardened Pharaoh, he also hardened Hitler. Frankly, many scholars argue that God predicted the Holocaust in the “dry bones” passage in Ezekiel years before it happened! It was always part of the sovereign plan of God.

But it while it is not very loving to the Jewish people who got killed, who does God love?
Really? So you're saying the Hand of God, so to speak, is responsible for the Holocaust? Wow!

...And it's because God didn't love the Jews.

This is what I'm gathering from your post's content. Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
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Landon Caeli

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It is. God takes full responsibility for all of that.
We really ought not speak for God, or on His behalf. As sinners, our own interpretations of what is written may not be perfect enough.
 
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stevil

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Anyone here want to explain the corruption that is found in Ukraine/ Zelensky? I need to know if this is real or made up.
I'm no expert on the matter. I'm just a regular person like you.

If we try to push political talking points aside. The one part of Ukraine corruption that I am aware of is that prosecutor (Viktor Shokin) in Ukraine who didn't want to prosecute.
It's a hard thing to talk about with USA right wing people because there was so many arguments about whether Biden was doing some kind of self serving Quid Pro Quo to get the guy removed.

But as far as I understand it Viktor Shokin was corrupt and many people globally wanted him removed. VP Biden was just doing what he was told in getting him removed. This wasn't a Biden win. It was just a task that the global community wanted done.


Shokin wasn't pursuing corruption among the country's politicians.

As European and American diplomats pressed Ukraine to clean up its corruption, they focused on Shokin's leadership of the Prosecutor General's Office, which he took over in February 2015.

Mike Carpenter, who served as a foreign policy adviser to the then-vice president, told USA TODAY that Shokin "never went after any corrupt individuals at all" and "never prosecuted any high-profile cases of corruption."

Charlie Kupchan, who was a special assistant to President Barack Obama and a senior director for European Affairs on the National Security Council, said anti-corruption efforts were "a big part of our diplomacy" with Ukraine, since "it was that corruption that allowed Russia to manipulate the country politically and economically.

"Civil society organizations in Ukraine were pressing for his resignation," Kaleniuk said, "but no one would have cared if there had not been voices from outside this country calling on him to go."

After Shokin left the Prosecutor General's Office, Jan Tombinski, the ambassador from the European Union to Ukraine, called it "an opportunity to make a fresh start."

"I hope," Tombinski said, "that the new Prosecutor General will ensure that the Office of the Prosecutor General becomes independent from political influence and pressure and enjoys public trust."


So personally, I would suggest, you look up this stuff. Try not to worry about the fact that Biden was involved or that the removal of Shokin happened under Obama's administration. And don't get distracted by the Hunter/Burisma side quest.

Just look into what corruption was happening with Shokin being complicit in.
 
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