Various denominations on the subject of the rapture

[BobRyan]

Rapture - definition - 1 Thess 4:13-18, John 14:1-3

literally taking the saints bodily to heaven - both the living and the dead as we see in 1 Thess 4:13-18

Question: How many denominations view 1 Thess 4:13-18 that way?

Lutherans?
Catholic?
Episcopal?
Methodists?
Orthodox?
Others?

Adventists do believe it -- and I think most Evangelicals also teach that sort of literal rapture. Though they have differences in timing with regard to tribulation etc.

 

[RandyPNW]

Rapture - definition - 1 Thess 4:13-18, John 14:1-3

literally taking the saints bodily to heaven - both the living and the dead as we see in 1 Thess 4:13-18

Question: How many denominations view 1 Thess 4:13-18 that way?

Lutherans?
Catholic?
Episcopal?
Methodists?
Orthodox?
Others?

Adventists do believe it -- and I think most Evangelicals also teach that sort of literal rapture. Though they have differences in timing with regard to tribulation etc.

Not even close to an expert on different denominational understandings of this. But I do have a general understanding of Christian history.

Most all traditional Christian groups expected to see an Antichrist of some kind, I think, and an accompanying return of Christ to defeat him. At Christ's Coming, the deceased saints, who are already with Christ, will be raised up into new glorified bodies. At the same time, living saints are caught up to heaven--not bodily, but in a transformative sense from mortal body to glorified body, joining together with the deceased.

After 1830 Darby concocted the Pretribulation Rapture, attempting to see things in a Premillennial, Futurist sense, transferring the 70th Week in Dan 9 to become a 7 years Great Tribulation in the endtimes. As such, he viewed this Tribulation as a period of Divine judgment against the world, with the Church given to escape it via a Pretribulational Rapture.

All Christian groups read the same Bible, though individual interpreters would obviously form their own ideas about these things. It is a cardinal doctrine to believe in Christ's Return, in our resurrection, and in our glorification.

 

[PloverWing]

I'm Episcopalian. Our tradition allows for a variety of views on eschatology. I don't think I know any Episcopalians who are Dispensationalists, though there are probably some. Thus, I think it's rare to find an Episcopalian who is looking for two Second Comings, instead of just one. That is, while we look for a Second Coming, most of us don't expect a Rapture that is a separate event from the Second Coming.

In our liturgy, we proclaim: "Christ has died. Christ is risen. Christ will come again." The Nicene Creed says "He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end", and the Apostles' Creed similarly says "He will come again to judge the living and the dead"; both of these creeds are part of our liturgy. So those are the boundaries: we look for Jesus to come back, with some kind of judgment or kingdom or both. Within those boundaries, you'll find much variation. The Bible doesn't actually give us much more information than this -- a point on which I'll have to disagree with the Dispensationalists and their detailed charts.

 

[Bob Crowley]

I've been Catholic getting on for 30 years, and not once have I heard another Catholic express any interest in a "rapture". I think it's a load of tripe myself.

There will be a form of "rapture" but at Christ's Second Coming which will only happen once.

For that matter I don't think most Protestants believe in the "rapture". It wasn't even a doctrine till Darby popularised it in the 1830's after hearing about a young Scottish lady who allegedly had a private revelation. For the first 1800 years of church history it didn't exist.

When I was Presbyterian in a conservative Presbyterian Church, the pastor didn't have any time for it.

From what I've heard around and about at my wife's church, I think some Baptists might believe it but I think most of them ignore it.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Rapture - definition - 1 Thess 4:13-18, John 14:1-3

literally taking the saints bodily to heaven - both the living and the dead as we see in 1 Thess 4:13-18

Question: How many denominations view 1 Thess 4:13-18 that way?

Lutherans?
Catholic?
Episcopal?
Methodists?
Orthodox?
Others?

Adventists do believe it -- and I think most Evangelicals also teach that sort of literal rapture. Though they have differences in timing with regard to tribulation etc.

I'm a Catholic, I see the last day more like it is described in Matthew 25:31-46.

 

[BobRyan]

I'm Episcopalian. Our tradition allows for a variety of views on eschatology. I don't think I know any Episcopalians who are Dispensationalists, though there are probably some. Thus, I think it's rare to find an Episcopalian who is looking for two Second Comings, instead of just one. That is, while we look for a Second Coming, most of us don't expect a Rapture that is a separate event from the Second Coming.

Rapture event
1 Thess 4:13-18 (describes it has taking saints up in the sky) as does Mat 24:29-33 "from one end of the sky to the other"
And John 14:1-3 seems to say saints at taken to heaven that time.

But in Rev 20 and 21 we see Christ coming to Earth - after the millennium to establish "new heaven and new Earth"

Not sure if people are calling the event in Rev 20 after the 1000 years mentioned there - "the second coming" or not.

 

[BobRyan]

I'm a Catholic, I see the last day more like it is described in Matthew 25:31-46.

So no 1000 year millennium of Rev 20 in your view?

What about Matt 24:29-33? That text seems to have a rapture event very much like 1 Thess 4:15-18
2 Thess 1:5-8?

IS it "either Matt 25 OR Matt 24" in your POV?

 

[BobRyan]

I've been Catholic getting on for 30 years, and not once have I heard another Catholic express any interest in a "rapture". I think it's a load of tripe myself.

John 14:1-3 looks like it is saying Jesus comes to Earth to take the saints to heave where He has prepared a place for them.
Matt 24:29-33 has the saints "gathered from one end of the sky to the other"
1 Thess 4:15-18 literally states the rapture as it reads.

having said that - I agree that a lot of popularized descriptions don't seem to fit the text.

There will be a form of "rapture" but at Christ's Second Coming which will only happen once.

For that matter I don't think most Protestants believe in the "rapture". It wasn't even a doctrine till Darby popularised it in the 1830's after hearing about a young Scottish lady who allegedly had a private revelation. For the first 1800 years of church history it didn't exist.

When I was Presbyterian in a conservative Presbyterian Church, the pastor didn't have any time for it.

From what I've heard around and about at my wife's church, I think some Baptists might believe it but I think most of them ignore it.

Its huge among evangelicals, Messianic groups, Baptists

Adventists hold to a pre-mill post-trib rapture and then a post-mill 2nd coming to Earth.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

So no 1000 year millennium of Rev 20 in your view?

What about Matt 24:29-33? That text seems to have a rapture event very much like 1 Thess 4:15-18
2 Thess 1:5-8?

not the kind that evangelical Christians think about.

Matthew 24:29-31 LSB “But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the POWERS OF THE HEAVENS will be shaken. (30) “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. (31) “And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.​

I'm not sure when and what is described in the above passage.

 

[BobRyan]

not the kind that evangelical Christians think about.

Matthew 24:29-31 LSB “But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the POWERS OF THE HEAVENS will be shaken. (30) “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. (31) “And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.​

I'm not sure when and what is described in the above passage.

It looks like the Rapture to me (and about 22 million of my friends). Saints taken to heaven in one single event at the end of time..

But as you point out - it is not the popular version of rapture seen in things like "Left Behind"

 

[The Liturgist]

In our liturgy, we proclaim: "Christ has died. Christ is risen. Christ will come again."

That’s actually specific to Rite II if memory serves, but Rite I says the same thing at other places in the liturgy through the Nicene Creed and the text of the Eucharistic Prayers (of which there are two in Rite I; St. Thomas Fifth Ave normally uses the second one, which is slightly more different from the Eucharistic Prayer from the 1928 BCP, which is still in use with official permission in some Episcopal parishes, most notably St. John’s Episcopal Church in Detroit, Michigan.

I do like Rite II, but I have to confess I find the musical accompaniment for that part of the liturgy that you quoted, which is also used fairly frequently in the UK, along with a common melody for the Alleluia, to be not quite on the same level as some other Anglican music in the hymnal. I don’t know how old or how traditional it is, but I have not heard it in old recordings of Episcopalian or Anglican liturgies, and St. John’s in Detroit does not use it.

This was not a problem during my blissful time as an Episcopalian parishioner since I normally attended the said service. My parish used Rite II exclusively, but the priest alternated between Eucharistic Prayer C in the fall, Eucharistic Prayer B in Lent, and Eucharistic Prayer A the rest of the year, for example on Epiphany, which i quite liked - he did not use Prayer D because of the lack of a variable preface, which is a complaint I hear from Anglican clergy.

Lately the priest at Old North Church in Boston who I quite like has been cycling through all of the Eucharistic Prayers in the BCP and the supplemental service book, which includes I think four additional prayers some of which are quite beautiful, one of which is the prayer that uses the phrase “like a mother.”

 

[The Liturgist]

The rapture as understood by Premillenial Dispensationalists and Adventists is really a product of the Restorationist theology of the 19th century, along with Premillenial Dispensationalism itself, which originated among the Plymouth Brethren, with John Nelson Darby, a theologian who basically developed the concept of Premillenial Dispensationalism, and then this was adopted both by Evangelicals and also by Calvinists. The King James Study Bible by Thomas Nelson rather disappointingly is written from an ecumenical premillenial dispensationalist perspective by a group of scholars who were mostly Southern Baptist or from the Presbyterian Church in America, but one was one of a member of the former conservative majority in the United Methodist Church. I would have wished a KJV study Bible would have doctrinal notes based on the theology of Church of England and the royal chapel of the Church of Scotland at the time it was translated by King James I and which included all of the books used by the Church of England, as that would put the translation in its doctrinal-historical context.

 

[BobRyan]

The rapture as understood by Premillenial Dispensationalists and Adventists is really a product of the Restorationist theology of the 19th century

Adventists are not dispensationalists. But many Evangelicals are.

Matt 24:29-31

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

John 14:1-3
2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if that were not so, I would have told you, because I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will take you to Myself, so that where I am, there you also will be.

1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, comfort one another with these words.

2 Thess 2:Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a message, or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction

Premillenial Dispensationalism itself, which originated among the Plymouth Brethren, with John Nelson Darby, a theologian who basically developed the concept of Premillenial Dispensationalism, and then this was adopted both by Evangelicals and also by Calvinists. The King James Study Bible by Thomas Nelson rather disappointingly is written from an ecumenical premillenial dispensationalist perspective by a group of scholars who were mostly Southern Baptist or from the Presbyterian Church in America, but one was one of a member of the former conservative majority in the United Methodist Church.

No doubt the dispensationalist view is one of several pre-millennial views.

 

[The Liturgist]

Adventists are not dispensationalists.

Indeed, but your interpretation of the verses in question is contemporaneous with that of John Nelson Darby and it is probable that Ellen White was influenced by his work, either directly or indirectly, building upon or more likely reacting against it, insofar as the Plymouth Brethren can be understood as a rival Restorationist movement which had the same intent as the Adventists, the Stone/Campbell movement, the Irvingites and others, the but which took its own distinctive approach. We do not encounter the idea of a rapture as understood by Adventists or as understood by the Left Behind people as a discrete event apart from the Second Coming and the Day of Judgement until the 19th century, even during the period before the Second Ecumenical Synod, the Council of Constantinople, reformed the Creed in what proved to be an unsuccessful attempt to exclude pre-millenarian belief (prior to that time, it had been a permitted theologoumemna, but was a minority view, one which we find in some fathers, chiefly St. Justin Martyr and St. Irenaeus of Lyons, yet nonetheless, no one proposed anything like a rapture per se as the word is understood at present.

The modern understanding of the word rapture in certain Restorationist-influenced denominations rather occurred during the development of the bulk of this movement and transferred into many Evangelical and Reformed churches, where it displaced the historic amillenial understanding, and this is deeply unfortunate.

 

[RandyPNW]

not the kind that evangelical Christians think about.

Matthew 24:29-31 LSB “But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the POWERS OF THE HEAVENS will be shaken. (30) “And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. (31) “And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.​

I'm not sure when and what is described in the above passage.

I don't think any of us fully appreciate what is meant by the 2nd Coming, as expressed in the Olivet Discourse? However, Jesus is attempting to get his followers to ignore the imitations of God's Kingdom on earth as anything more than preparatory or a complete forgery. The full transition of our Christian lives into eternity, and the transition of politics in this age to the eternal Kingdom of God likely surpasses our fondest expectations.

 

[RandyPNW]

The rapture as understood by Premillenial Dispensationalists and Adventists is really a product of the Restorationist theology of the 19th century, along with Premillenial Dispensationalism itself, which originated among the Plymouth Brethren, with John Nelson Darby, a theologian who basically developed the concept of Premillenial Dispensationalism, and then this was adopted both by Evangelicals and also by Calvinists. The King James Study Bible by Thomas Nelson rather disappointingly is written from an ecumenical premillenial dispensationalist perspective by a group of scholars who were mostly Southern Baptist or from the Presbyterian Church in America, but one was one of a member of the former conservative majority in the United Methodist Church. I would have wished a KJV study Bible would have doctrinal notes based on the theology of Church of England and the royal chapel of the Church of Scotland at the time it was translated by King James I and which included all of the books used by the Church of England, as that would put the translation in its doctrinal-historical context.

I preface my comments here with the admission that I fall far below standards of scholarship, and admit that I am just a general and occasional reader of Christian history. I nevertheless have some interest in these matters.

I do find it interesting that Darby was a Calvinist and that most American Dispensationalists that I meet are Arminian types. I think that the more doctrinally orthodox reform movements were Calvinist, whereas in America the revival movements, beginning with the 1st Awakening, tended to follow the Methodist approach, which is Arminian (though certainly not all of them).

Darby's kind of reform took on a restorationist view based on the futurism of Catholics Ribera, Bellarmine, and Lacunza, and understood it in Premillennial terms. The present state of Christianity in the Europoean states fell woefully short of the Protestant ideal of "faith" and "spirituality." True Christianity is a kind of "remnant of believers" that maintains true Christian spirituality until things can be fully restored to the states in the Millennium.

Calvinism, I think, would eventually mark more of a distinction between a State Christianity and a "spiritual," or "Faith-oriented," elitist Christianity. But the inherent sense of "separation" in Protestantism would eventually not only distinguish between Catholics and more "spiritual" Protestants, but also between one kind of Protestant and another. (I'm not saying I agree with all of this--just explaining how I think these movements viewed things.)

To distinguish between nominal Christianity and the elect requires evidence of this distinction, and this might encourage both reform and revival to make these differences evident, as opposed to a general morality in society. Darby's restorationist attitude reflects but one brand of this kind of thing.

Darby, therefore, pursued a restorationist perspective while emphasizing the failiures of the current Christian age in contrast with the future changes that will take place now in the elect and in the conversion of national Israel in the Millennium. True Christianity is a remnant of faith and spirituality "holding the fort" until Christ comes back to rescue the elite from the judgment of God preceding the Millennium.

I don't have a fully informed perspective, but this is the best I can do with it. I hope I haven't made too many presumptive claims?

 

[The Liturgist]

I preface my comments here with the admission that I fall far below standards of scholarship, and admit that I am just a general and occasional reader of Christian history. I nevertheless have some interest in these matters.

I do find it interesting that Darby was a Calvinist and that most American Dispensationalists that I meet are Arminian types. I think that the more doctrinally orthodox reform movements were Calvinist, whereas in America the revival movements, beginning with the 1st Awakening, tended to follow the Methodist approach, which is Arminian (though certainly not all of them).

Darby's kind of reform took on a restorationist view based on the futurism of Catholics Ribera, Bellarmine, and Lacunza, and understood it in Premillennial terms. The present state of Christianity in the Europoean states fell woefully short of the Protestant ideal of "faith" and "spirituality." True Christianity is a kind of "remnant of believers" that maintains true Christian spirituality until things can be fully restored to the states in the Millennium.

Calvinism, I think, would eventually mark more of a distinction between a State Christianity and a "spiritual," or "Faith-oriented," elitist Christianity. But the inherent sense of "separation" in Protestantism would eventually not only distinguish between Catholics and more "spiritual" Protestants, but also between one kind of Protestant and another. (I'm not saying I agree with all of this--just explaining how I think these movements viewed things.)

To distinguish between nominal Christianity and the elect requires evidence of this distinction, and this might encourage both reform and revival to make these differences evident, as opposed to a general morality in society. Darby's restorationist attitude reflects but one brand of this kind of thing.

Darby, therefore, pursued a restorationist perspective while emphasizing the failiures of the current Christian age in contrast with the future changes that will take place now in the elect and in the conversion of national Israel in the Millennium. True Christianity is a remnant of faith and spirituality "holding the fort" until Christ comes back to rescue the elite from the judgment of God preceding the Millennium.

I don't have a fully informed perspective, but this is the best I can do with it. I hope I haven't made too many presumptive claims?

No, that was very impressive and is the kind of insight I love finding on CF.com! You and I are going to enjoy having an epic conversation in the near future on various subjects of mutual interest.

You have done such a splendid job chronicling the parallel development of the Restorationist churches in Europe and America and how Darby’s neo-Chiliasm originated (which I regard as a severe misinterpretation of Scripture but one can see how the state churches in Europe, especially those under Rationalist influence in the early 19th century, could engender such a perspective; I am delighted with your post and it represents the kind of discussion I think makes this forum shine.

 

[RandyPNW]

No, that was very impressive and is the kind of insight I love finding on CF.com! You and I are going to enjoy having an epic conversation in the near future on various subjects of mutual interest.

You have done such a splendid job chronicling the parallel development of the Restorationist churches in Europe and America and how Darby’s neo-Chiliasm originated (which I regard as a severe misinterpretation of Scripture but one can see how the state churches in Europe, especially those under Rationalist influence in the early 19th century, could engender such a perspective; I am delighted with your post and it represents the kind of discussion I think makes this forum shine.

Coming from you I'm greatly encouraged, because it's your posts that I find fascinating and instructive. Even better, it is very, very informed. Thanks brother!

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

It looks like the Rapture to me (and about 22 million of my friends). Saints taken to heaven in one single event at the end of time..

But as you point out - it is not the popular version of rapture seen in things like "Left Behind"

Is that the case because your denomination teaches that it is that way? My Church doesn't teach it that way, and I think they are right about it.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I don't think any of us fully appreciate what is meant by the 2nd Coming, as expressed in the Olivet Discourse? However, Jesus is attempting to get his followers to ignore the imitations of God's Kingdom on earth as anything more than preparatory or a complete forgery. The full transition of our Christian lives into eternity, and the transition of politics in this age to the eternal Kingdom of God likely surpasses our fondest expectations.

The passage looks like it describes the second coming of Jesus Christ, which is tied in with the last judgement in Matthew 25:31-46, but the other words in the passage are not entirely clear to me, so I will not speculate about them. I haven't spent much time researching the passage.