• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Military Veteran, US Citizens Detained in ICE raid in Newark, NJ - Mayor alleges Fourth Amendment Violation

essentialsaltes

Fact-Based Lifeform
Oct 17, 2011
43,653
46,708
Los Angeles Area
✟1,043,035.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
U.S. immigration agents rounded up undocumented migrants as well as American citizens in a raid of a Newark, New Jersey, worksite on Thursday that the city's mayor said involved detaining a military veteran and violations of the people's rights.

"In a raid of a business establishment in Newark, outside New York City, Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agents failed to produce a warrant as they detained "undocumented residents as well as citizens," [Mayor] Baraka said in a statement.

"One of the detainees is a U.S. military veteran who suffered the indignity of having the legitimacy of his military documentation questioned," Baraka said.

Mayor's statement

Omelet / eggs.

1737692770939.png
 

Vambram

Born-again Christian; Constitutional conservative
Site Supporter
Dec 3, 2006
8,280
5,933
60
Saint James, Missouri
✟404,775.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Because Mayor Baraka's city is a "sanctuary city", I am more than just a little bit hesitant to accept his reports of what happened to be 100% factual.
 
Upvote 0

Vambram

Born-again Christian; Constitutional conservative
Site Supporter
Dec 3, 2006
8,280
5,933
60
Saint James, Missouri
✟404,775.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican

Reluctant Theologian

אַבְרָהָם
Jul 13, 2021
798
604
QLD
✟144,453.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
When significant numbers of illegal aliens are deployed at work sites/business, raids are a very effective and justified way of rounding them up - those methods are used by various countries - nothing morally wrong with a raid.

When legal residents or USA citizens are at the work site where the raid occurs; they will need documents/ID to prove that they're indeed legal residents/citizens - that's also normal. In most countries in Europe there are compulsory ID laws - so it's illegal to be outside of your home anywhere without a valid ID. I realise the USA are not Europe, but I mention this to provide a bit of perspective.

The more interesting question is: how many illegal aliens were found at these raids?
 

Pommer

CoPacEtiC SkEpTic
Sep 13, 2008
23,066
14,236
Earth
✟253,623.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
When significant numbers of illegal aliens are deployed at work sites/business, raids are a very effective and justified way of rounding them up - those methods are used by various countries - nothing morally wrong with a raid.

When legal residents or USA citizens are at the work site where the raid occurs; they will need documents/ID to prove that they're indeed legal residents/citizens - that's also normal. In most countries in Europe there are compulsory ID laws - so it's illegal to be outside of your home anywhere without a valid ID. I realise the USA are not Europe, but I mention this to provide a bit of perspective.

The more interesting question is: how many illegal aliens were found at these raids?
Oh goodie, I’ve always wanted to live in a country where I could be asked for “your papers!”, what a charming development!
 
Upvote 0

Reluctant Theologian

אַבְרָהָם
Jul 13, 2021
798
604
QLD
✟144,453.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Oh goodie, I’ve always wanted to live in a country where I could be asked for “your papers!”, what a charming development!
True, it's exactly the same as in WW2 where German forces could everyone on the street ask for an 'Ausweis' (ID) - but the reality is that given the enormous amount of illegals now in both Europe and the USA .. there is no other way of being able to practically find out whether someone is a legal resident quickly. The ID-less alternative would be to have a massive fingerprint database but I presume you would not prefer that?

Btw where I live (Australia) every single illegal alien is chased and deported by Immigration - overstaying your visa simply is not tolerated. Workplace raids occur here as well ...

The whole point of borders and visa is that a Government is allowed and enabled to keep unwanted people out. To say illegals should not be deported is the same as to say borders should not exist and that everyone in the world should be allowed to migrate/move to any country in the world per their desire ... That's a recipe for disaster and collapse of countries/cultures - no country in the Middle-East, Asia or Oceania allows that. It's remarkable some people expect the USA or Europe to do just that ... !
 
  • Like
Reactions: dremnant
Upvote 0

SimplyMe

Senior Veteran
Jul 19, 2003
10,646
10,393
the Great Basin
✟405,786.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
When significant numbers of illegal aliens are deployed at work sites/business, raids are a very effective and justified way of rounding them up - those methods are used by various countries - nothing morally wrong with a raid.

When legal residents or USA citizens are at the work site where the raid occurs; they will need documents/ID to prove that they're indeed legal residents/citizens - that's also normal. In most countries in Europe there are compulsory ID laws - so it's illegal to be outside of your home anywhere without a valid ID. I realise the USA are not Europe, but I mention this to provide a bit of perspective.

The more interesting question is: how many illegal aliens were found at these raids?

Sorry, it is unconstitutional to be asked for "your papers." There are times that you can be required to ID, such as during a traffic stop where you committed a violation, but not just walking down the street or showing up for work.
 
Upvote 0

Pommer

CoPacEtiC SkEpTic
Sep 13, 2008
23,066
14,236
Earth
✟253,623.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
True, it's exactly the same as in WW2 where German forces could everyone on the street ask for an 'Ausweis' (ID) - but the reality is that given the enormous amount of illegals now in both Europe and the USA .. there is no other way of being able to practically find out whether someone is a legal resident quickly. The ID-less alternative would be to have a massive fingerprint database but I presume you would not prefer that?

Btw where I live (Australia) every single illegal alien is chased and deported by Immigration - overstaying your visa simply is not tolerated. Workplace raids occur here as well ...

The whole point of borders and visa is that a Government is allowed and enabled to keep unwanted people out. To say illegals should not be deported is the same as to say borders should not exist and that everyone in the world should be allowed to migrate/move to any country in the world per their desire ... That's a recipe for disaster and collapse of countries/cultures - no country in the Middle-East, Asia or Oceania allows that. It's remarkable some people expect the USA or Europe to do just that ... !
Arguing for borders seems like it’d be a natural response coming from an Island Nation, so, half a point deduction, there…

But the US’s quandry, is that we desperately need immigrants but the current theme on one side is “get rid of the immigrants!”

Being angry at the people who are going to save our nation from 2nd-rate status should be treated a bit better.
 
Upvote 0

Pommer

CoPacEtiC SkEpTic
Sep 13, 2008
23,066
14,236
Earth
✟253,623.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
Sorry, it is unconstitutional to be asked for "your papers." There are times that you can be required to ID, such as during a traffic stop where you committed a violation, but not just walking down the street or showing up for work.
I might be somewhat jaded but this sounds a wee, tiny bit naive.
To be clear, it’s a violation much of the time, but it happens quite a lot.
 
Upvote 0

Reluctant Theologian

אַבְרָהָם
Jul 13, 2021
798
604
QLD
✟144,453.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Arguing for borders seems like it’d be a natural response coming from an Island Nation, so, half a point deduction, there…

But the US’s quandry, is that we desperately need immigrants but the current theme on one side is “get rid of the immigrants!”

Being angry at the people who are going to save our nation from 2nd-rate status should be treated a bit better.
Australia definitely is a big island with 'easy' borders to control; but the strict guarding of borders happens in many nations around the world that are not islands (in Middle-East, Asia) .. e.g. certainly China/India .. but also e.g. Japan/Indonesia. Border control is all about safety; otherwise you can be simply run over by unwanted/dangerous individuals.

You're mixing up the concept of migrants and illegal aliens. Like the USA, Australia has many migrants each year (the Government thinks the country needs them). But it has very few illegal aliens - a sane country will permit migrants that meet all migration/visa criteria but keeps unwanted migrants applying for a visa out. And by that concept any illegal alien cannot be tolerated as they will in all likelihood not meet the desired criteria.

If the USA needs migrants to work on farms the proper procedure is for the employers to apply for work visas on behalf of their prospective employees/future migrants. Immigration then checks whether the visa application meets actual criteria, and whether the prospective employee/migrant meets the minimum requirements (health, language, criminal history, etc.) and seems suitable for the job.

That is how your arrange safe and sufficient migrant employees if they are genuinely needed on farms/factories. You prevent 'scam' work-visa applications by rogue employers, and you can keep unsuitable or criminal job applicants out.

Allowing illegal aliens to work on farms/factories without checks/balances creates a grey-zone 'underclass' without any rights (so very vulnerable to exploitation by employers - I've witnessed this myself); and causes unwanted individuals to migrate as well and endanger safety in society.

Another obvious advantage is that when allowing Immigration to properly assess/approve any work visa application the Government can monitor whether the country's capacity for housing and health (e.g. hospitals) keeps up with resident nrs. So you avoid the situation where migrants en masse move in and then create a housing/health crisis.

It's all common sense really - and this is standard practice in many countries around the world (not just islands).
 
  • Agree
Reactions: QvQ
Upvote 0

Maria Billingsley

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 7, 2018
11,403
9,420
65
Martinez
✟1,171,332.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
When significant numbers of illegal aliens are deployed at work sites/business, raids are a very effective and justified way of rounding them up - those methods are used by various countries - nothing morally wrong with a raid.

When legal residents or USA citizens are at the work site where the raid occurs; they will need documents/ID to prove that they're indeed legal residents/citizens - that's also normal. In most countries in Europe there are compulsory ID laws - so it's illegal to be outside of your home anywhere without a valid ID. I realise the USA are not Europe, but I mention this to provide a bit of perspective.

The more interesting question is: how many illegal aliens were found at these raids?
So I need to carry my birth certificate, passport etc. on job sites from now on ? I guess I'll dig it up since I am a first generation Cuban with brown hair, brown skin and brown eyes. Repugnant.
 
Upvote 0

Aryeh Jay

Stuck on a ship.
Site Supporter
Jul 19, 2012
17,801
16,509
MI - Michigan
✟688,923.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
So I need to carry my birth certificate, passport etc. on job sites from now on ? I guess I'll dig it up since I am a first generation Cuban with brown hair, brown skin and brown eyes. Repugnant.

My mother's family came over from Cuba in the late 1920s. I visited a few years ago.
 
Upvote 0

Laodicean60

Well-Known Member
Jul 2, 2023
5,113
2,469
65
NM
✟106,740.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Well, this is a good opportunity for Americans to get rich through lawsuits no longer do we have to look for water puddles to slip and fall on at convenience stores. I'm not as white as a fish's belly nor white as a sheet like my grandson and I pity my government for violating my civil rights.

I'm for proof that they are here legally with some form of ID or workers permit to keep this from happening to innocents.
 
Upvote 0

essentialsaltes

Fact-Based Lifeform
Oct 17, 2011
43,653
46,708
Los Angeles Area
✟1,043,035.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Upvote 0

Aryeh Jay

Stuck on a ship.
Site Supporter
Jul 19, 2012
17,801
16,509
MI - Michigan
✟688,923.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Well, this is a good opportunity for Americans to get rich through lawsuits no longer do we have to look for water puddles to slip and fall on at convenience stores. I'm not as white as a fish's belly nor white as a sheet like my grandson and I pity my government for violating my civil rights.

I'm for proof that they are here legally with some form of ID or workers permit to keep this from happening to innocents.

Do you think that agents will let people go home to collect their papers before they get deported?
 
Upvote 0

Aryeh Jay

Stuck on a ship.
Site Supporter
Jul 19, 2012
17,801
16,509
MI - Michigan
✟688,923.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Meh, who needs the fourth amendment? It's not like we deserve privacy when someone somewhere might be doing something wrong.

Better safe than sorry.
 
Upvote 0