Palisades Fire live updates: Wildfires spread in Los Angeles, prompting mandatory evacuations, as Santa Ana winds expected to intensify

[RDKirk]

The push for EV over ICE has been driven by the California smog problem as much as anthropogenic global warming. If you're young, you might not be aware of just how bad and detrimental to public health smog used to be**, so if you are figuring costs, you should also include health costs from pollution which have been greatly mitigated in the latter part of the 20th century, but which still exist.

I remember spending a few weeks in 1975 at March AFB, which was south of Riverside. For most of the time I was there, I'd look around and everything seemed fairly dusky. One day, though, there was some sort of very different weather phenomenon. I looked to the west and--Holy Temperature Inversion, Batman!--there was a whole mountain range right there that had always been hidden in the mist.

As you say, that problem has been greatly mitigated, and the biggest factor was removing lead from gasoline. What happens to the atmosphere when automobiles with lithum batteries get caught in wildfires?

The stream is full of alligators, but some are closer and bigger than others.

Look at this wildfire, look at the propensity of more, and really consider which is your biggest and closest alligator.

 

[DaisyDay]

I remember spending a few weeks in 1975 at March AFB, which was south of Riverside.

For those who like me have no clue what March AFB is or where Riverside is:

Nestled between the cities of Riverside and Moreno Valley, the March Air Reserve Base (March ARB) is one of the oldest airfields operated by the United States military. It covers some 6,700 acres and its 13,300-foot runway is the longest in California. March ARB was one of thirty-two Air Service training camps established at the onset of World War I. In addition to being home to the Force Reserve Command’s 4th Air Force, headquarters and host to the 452d Air Mobility Wing (the largest air mobility wing of the 4th Air Force), March ARB also includes units from the Army Reserve, Navy Reserve, Marine Corps Reserve, and the California Air National Guard. (Linkie)​

For most of the time I was there, I'd look around and everything seemed fairly dusky. One day, though, there was some sort of very different weather phenomenon. I looked to the west and--Holy Temperature Inversion, Batman!--there was a whole mountain range right there that had always been hidden in the mist.

As you say, that problem has been greatly mitigated, and the biggest factor was removing lead from gasoline. What happens to the atmosphere when automobiles with lithum batteries get caught in wildfires?

Lead in gasoline, poisonous to public health as it was/is, is not the cause of smog. To repeat:

Working in a specially-equipped Los Angeles air district laboratory, he determined that two chief constituents of automobile exhaust – airborne hydrocarbons from gasoline, and oxides of nitrogen (NOx) produced by internal combustion engines – were to blame for smog.​

I have no idea what the effects of lithium car, golf cart, solar batteries burning in a wildfire might be, but that does not mean that all resources should be dedicated to eliminating a single source of it.

The stream is full of alligators, but some are closer and bigger than others.

Look at this wildfire, look at the propensity of more, and really consider which is your biggest and closest alligator.

It seems as if you are suggesting that California's long standing fight against air pollution should be abandoned for the wildfire mitigation and prevention (can natural disasters be totally eliminated?) or else no disaster aid should be forthcoming. I don't find this approach to be reasonable or even practicable.

 

[RDKirk]

For those who like me have no clue what March AFB is or where Riverside is:

Nestled between the cities of Riverside and Moreno Valley, the March Air Reserve Base (March ARB) is one of the oldest airfields operated by the United States military. It covers some 6,700 acres and its 13,300-foot runway is the longest in California. March ARB was one of thirty-two Air Service training camps established at the onset of World War I. In addition to being home to the Force Reserve Command’s 4th Air Force, headquarters and host to the 452d Air Mobility Wing (the largest air mobility wing of the 4th Air Force), March ARB also includes units from the Army Reserve, Navy Reserve, Marine Corps Reserve, and the California Air National Guard. (Linkie)​

Lead in gasoline, poisonous to public health as it was/is, is not the cause of smog. To repeat:

Working in a specially-equipped Los Angeles air district laboratory, he determined that two chief constituents of automobile exhaust – airborne hydrocarbons from gasoline, and oxides of nitrogen (NOx) produced by internal combustion engines – were to blame for smog.​

I have no idea what the effects of lithium car, golf cart, solar batteries burning in a wildfire might be, but that does not mean that all resources should be dedicated to eliminating a single source of it.


It seems as if you are suggesting that California's long standing fight against air pollution should be abandoned for the wildfire mitigation and prevention (can natural disasters be totally eliminated?) or else no disaster aid should be forthcoming. I don't find this approach to be reasonable or even practicable.

I hate it when people run to absurdity in a discussion. "Abandoned?" No, that would mean going back to 1950s (non)standards. Certainly, there is no need to go that far. But it's certainly possible to ignore the biggest and closest alligator while focusing on the alligator far downstream.

What else was going to bite California this hard this fast...and remains poised to continue to bite California this hard and fast...over and over and over again?

The insurance companies have been sharing their risk data with California for years.

 

[Nithavela]

As you say, that problem has been greatly mitigated, and the biggest factor was removing lead from gasoline. What happens to the atmosphere when automobiles with lithum batteries get caught in wildfires?

Burning Lithium doesn't emit carbon dioxide.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

What else was going to bite California this hard this fast...and remains poised to continue to bite California this hard and fast...over and over and over again?

The insurance companies have been sharing their risk data with California for years.

And California has several programs that are already active or in development towards mitigating wildfire risks:

Home Hardening Assistance - California Wildfire & Forest Resilience

wildfiretaskforce.org

California Wildfire Mitigation Program | OSFM

osfm.fire.ca.gov

Is hardening a home against fire affordable? It depends.

The costs can vary widely and using the right building materials is essential, says wildfire policy analyst Kimiko Barrett.

www.marketplace.org

What would you like to see done further?

 

[RDKirk]

Burning Lithium doesn't emit carbon dioxide.

I didn't say anything about carbon dioxide.

 

[RDKirk]

And California has several programs that are already active or in development towards mitigating wildfire risks:

Home Hardening Assistance - California Wildfire & Forest Resilience

wildfiretaskforce.org

California Wildfire Mitigation Program | OSFM

osfm.fire.ca.gov

Is hardening a home against fire affordable? It depends.

The costs can vary widely and using the right building materials is essential, says wildfire policy analyst Kimiko Barrett.

www.marketplace.org

What would you like to see done further?

"The California Wildfire Mitigation Program is currently in the demonstration phase, being piloted in three select areas, Whitmore in Shasta County, Dulzura in San Diego County and Kelseyville-Riviera in Lake County. New pilot communities are also being considered for Tuolumne and El Dorado Counties. The lessons learned working with these pilot communities under the demonstration phase are being used to refine the program and build the program framework before expanding to additional areas within demonstration counties, and ultimately, across the state."


Doesn't sound like they've actually completed a single real house yet.

 

[durangodawood]

....The stream is full of alligators, but some are closer and bigger than others.....

In the war of cliches I send to the battlefield: "walk and chew gum".

 

[Abraxos]

Let’s give a big thanks to migrants, Mexicans, and prisoners. God bless them for their incredible contributions to saving American lives!

The Coalition of First Responders helping fight blazes and clear debris in Los Angeles right now includes the stuff of MAGA nightmares. So, are Americans finally ready to start humanising these groups of heroes?

As LA faces climate change, turbocharged wildfires have killed at least 25 people, destroyed tens of thousands of homes, and displaced many others. While it's been apocalyptic and terrifying, there's also been a lot of goodwill and solidarity, especially from groups who rarely receive it in return—the unsung heroes. Despite MAGA's xenophobic rhetoric, groups like the National Day Laborers Organizing Network and Pasadena Community Job Center have assembled teams of migrant day labourers who are forming fire relief brigades to clear debris from communities. Some migrants often work in landscaping and already possess the skills required for this difficult work.

Then there's Mexico. Mexican President Claudia Sheinbaum has sent 72 firefighters and disaster relief workers from Mexico's Ministry of Defense and the National Forestry Commission to help stop the blazes. In contrast to the MAGA slogans of "Build the Wall!", President Sheinbaum emphasised that Mexico provides aid because "We are a country of generosity and solidarity." This sentiment is something America could learn from regarding her neighbours.

What about the prisoners? Over 900 incarcerated individuals are working with CAL FIRE after weeks of training to help clear brush in active wildfire zones. Within a few months, they help with brush clearing and cutting for ongoing wildfires. They hike several miles up mountains, armed only with hand tools. This is among wildland firefighting's toughest roles: "We’re like infantry, the foot soldiers of this effort. We even sleep on the mountain with nothing but the clothes on our backs." Unfortunately, compensation is quite low, ranging from $5.80 to $10.20 per day. However, participation in the program is voluntary, allowing inmates to apply for time served through ACR. This can lead to earlier parole and the potential for having their criminal records expunged upon release. Programs like the forestry and fire recruitment initiative help formerly incarcerated individuals find employment by leveraging the skills they gained while battling fires. For many, this opportunity provides a sense of purpose to improve themselves and serve the community, restoring their dignity and reintegrating them into society.

While Trump and the Right want to blame Californians for their wildfires, play politics with relief money, and pedal conspiracy theories, migrants, Mexicans, and prisoners are stepping up. They're showing that they aren't MAGA's boogeymen but represent the best in humanity, modelling solidarity. If America has any hope to survive the climate chaos both environmental and political, instigated by the 1%, they're going to need a whole lot more of it.

 

[RDKirk]

In the war of cliches I send to the battlefield: "walk and chew gum".

Which they haven't done yet.

 

[rjs330]

The Coalition of First Responders helping fight blazes and clear debris in Los Angeles right now includes the stuff of MAGA nightmares. So, are Americans finally ready to start humanising these groups of heroes?

I'm not sure anyone could possibly misrepresent Trump supporters any more than this. Wild, melodramatic, misrepresentation at the least.

there's also been a lot of goodwill and solidarity, especially from groups who rarely receive it in return—the unsung heroes. Despite MAGA's xenophobic rhetoric,

Oh look, more of it.

National Day Laborers Organizing Network and Pasadena Community Job Center have assembled teams of migrant day labourers who are forming fire relief brigades to clear debris from communities. Some migrants often work in landscaping and already possess the skills required for this difficult work.

Glad they are lending a hand. Good for them. I wonder if any other groups are helping. How many other people who live there are helping? There are people from all over tge US going to help. Canada is helping as well.

In contrast to the MAGA slogans of "Build the Wall!", President Sheinbaum emphasised that Mexico provides aid because "We are a country of generosity and solidarity." This sentiment is something America could learn from regarding her neighbours.

You America is one of the countries that is among the first to give aid to other countries when disasters strikes right? America is very generous on that account. I dont know why you are so anti-American.

What about the prisoners? Over 900 incarcerated individuals are working with CAL FIRE after weeks of training to help clear brush in active wildfire zones. Within a few months, they help with brush clearing and cutting for ongoing wildfires. They hike several miles up mountains, armed only with hand tools. This is among wildland firefighting's toughest roles: "We’re like infantry, the foot soldiers of this effort. We even sleep on the mountain with nothing but the clothes on our backs."

This is something California has been doing for a while now. CA kind of depends on them. Its something they should be doing. I'd actually like to see prisoners do more for the communities they have damaged by their behaviors. They could actually gain some better skills that way.

Programs like the forestry and fire recruitment initiative help formerly incarcerated individuals find employment by leveraging the skills they gained while battling fires. For many, this opportunity provides a sense of purpose to improve themselves and serve the community, restoring their dignity and reintegrating them into society.

Yes, exactly what I was saying.

They're showing that they aren't MAGA's boogeymen but represent the best in humanity, modelling solidarity. If America has any hope to survive the climate chaos both environmental and political, instigated by the 1%, they're going to need a whole lot more of it.

Who's they? Immigrants, prisoners, illegals?

The 1% are now responsible for climate change? Quite a conspiracy you have going.

 

[durangodawood]

Which they haven't done yet.

Not because they can't. They just haven't. Most places haven't.

 

[Nithavela]

I didn't say anything about carbon dioxide.

So, what happens to the atmosphere when you burn electric cars, then?

 

[RDKirk]

So, what happens to the atmosphere when you burn electric cars, then?

I asked that question first. If we don't know the answer, maybe we should find out before we go too far in wildfire-prone areas.

 

[Nithavela]

I asked that question first. If we don't know the answer, maybe we should find out before we go too far in wildfire-prone areas.

I don't see a reason why anything significant should happen. Sure, there will be some burned plastic, but lithium batteries are actually less toxic after all the lithium is burned away.

 

[RDKirk]

Not because they can't. They just haven't. Most places haven't.

Most places aren't as prone to wildfires.

I remember back in the 80s when insurance companies stopped insuring homes in the Houston area and other places because of a sudden wave of black mold infestation. It turned out that the bright idea of the 70s of retrofitting homes older homes for airtightness to save energy had an inherent problem of greatly encouraging mold inside the walls that showed up most in humid climates.

Homes need to "breathe." Older homes were not designed with specific air exchange features built-in, they had to breathe through their various cracks. It was one of those forehead slappers that was obvious to building scientists, but it had become a popular environmental wave that had made money for a lot of contractors.

"We're not going to insure homes in your area because of risk X. Mitigate risk X and we'll insure homes in your area." That's not extortion, that's for your mutual benefit. When someone points out you're leading a risky life, pay attention.

 

[durangodawood]

Most places aren't as prone to wildfires.

Yes. Exactly why building code reforms re wildfire dont need to be set against other important policies.

I remember back in the 80s when insurance companies stopped insuring homes in the Houston area and other places because of a sudden wave of black mold infestation. It turned out that the bright idea of the 70s of retrofitting homes older homes for airtightness to save energy had an inherent problem of greatly encouraging mold inside the walls that showed up most in humid climates.

Homes need to "breathe." Older homes were not designed with specific air exchange features built-in, they had to breathe through their various cracks. It was one of those forehead slappers that was obvious to building scientists, but it had become a popular environmental wave that had made money for a lot of contractors.

"We're not going to insure homes in your area because of risk X. Mitigate risk X and we'll insure homes in your area." That's not extortion, that's for your mutual benefit. When someone points out you're leading a risky life, pay attention.

I dont work in that climate, but residential architecture is my day job, so Im familiar with various successes and failure in building technology changes. Imo this should be addressed at the building code level. The process for revising the code is pretty thoughtful and not just various builders responding to fads or marketing willy nilly. And all new construction in the designated areas has to comply. And it doesn't have to be super expensive.

Existing homes are more challenging financially. It is expensive to replace functioning but dangerous building components. Perhaps addressing only the very worst existing materials and features should be mandatory. Plus landscaping measures.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Since the question has arisen.

Burning Teslas, fried battery storage systems add to toxic mix hindering LA wildfire cleanup​

“A lot of the cars in the evacuation area were lithium batteries,” said Jacqui Irwin, a state assembly member representing the Pacific Palisades, one of the neighborhoods hardest hit by the fires. “We’ve heard from firefighters that those lithium batteries burned fires near homes – like those with power walls – for much longer.”

There were over 431,000 Teslas in operation in the Los Angeles area as of October 2024, according to data from S&P Global Mobility. Based on new registrations, their market share locally was three times that of the rest of the nation. The Tesla Model Y was the biggest-selling vehicle in the state through September, according to the California New Car Dealers Association.

Fires in lithium batteries can require large amounts of water to put out with automakers publishing guides for first responders detailing how to respond.

San Diego firefighter Robert Rezende, a specialist in lithium-battery hazards who’ll be assisting in the cleanup effort, said protocols developed during the 2023 fires in Maui will be used in Los Angeles. But the scale of this event, and the hazards, are magnitudes larger.

In Maui, the Environmental Protection Agency shipped more than 30 tons of lithium batteries from over 1,400 properties for recycling.

The initial phase of cleanup involves the removal of materials most at risk to public health, according to Tara Fitzgerald, an incident commander with the agency. That includes pesticides, batteries or fuels and other products that would normally be considered hazardous household waste.

[Other hazards:] “The combustion of building materials such as siding, roofing tiles, and insulation result in dangerous ash that may contain asbestos, heavy metals and other hazardous substances,” the health department said. “Household and business hazardous substances such as paint, gasoline, cleaning products, pesticides, compressed gas cylinders and chemicals may have been stored in business locations, homes, garages or sheds that may have burned or released in the fire.”

 

[Nithavela]

Since the question has arisen.

Burning Teslas, fried battery storage systems add to toxic mix hindering LA wildfire cleanup​

“A lot of the cars in the evacuation area were lithium batteries,” said Jacqui Irwin, a state assembly member representing the Pacific Palisades, one of the neighborhoods hardest hit by the fires. “We’ve heard from firefighters that those lithium batteries burned fires near homes – like those with power walls – for much longer.”

There were over 431,000 Teslas in operation in the Los Angeles area as of October 2024, according to data from S&P Global Mobility. Based on new registrations, their market share locally was three times that of the rest of the nation. The Tesla Model Y was the biggest-selling vehicle in the state through September, according to the California New Car Dealers Association.

Fires in lithium batteries can require large amounts of water to put out with automakers publishing guides for first responders detailing how to respond.

San Diego firefighter Robert Rezende, a specialist in lithium-battery hazards who’ll be assisting in the cleanup effort, said protocols developed during the 2023 fires in Maui will be used in Los Angeles. But the scale of this event, and the hazards, are magnitudes larger.

In Maui, the Environmental Protection Agency shipped more than 30 tons of lithium batteries from over 1,400 properties for recycling.

The initial phase of cleanup involves the removal of materials most at risk to public health, according to Tara Fitzgerald, an incident commander with the agency. That includes pesticides, batteries or fuels and other products that would normally be considered hazardous household waste.

[Other hazards:] “The combustion of building materials such as siding, roofing tiles, and insulation result in dangerous ash that may contain asbestos, heavy metals and other hazardous substances,” the health department said. “Household and business hazardous substances such as paint, gasoline, cleaning products, pesticides, compressed gas cylinders and chemicals may have been stored in business locations, homes, garages or sheds that may have burned or released in the fire.”

So.. a fire hazard, but no especially harmful emissions?

 

[RDKirk]

Yes. Exactly why building code reforms re wildfire dont need to be set against other important policies.

Well, it's true, now, that we won't have to worry about the areas that have been burned down being burned down again. A few more summers like this, and this won't be a worry for the state at all. Maybe it's a plan.