Palisades Fire live updates: Wildfires spread in Los Angeles, prompting mandatory evacuations, as Santa Ana winds expected to intensify

[Nithavela]

Not in fire-fighting amounts. But the question is whether that's really necessary to use only fresh water to fight fires.

It is, unless you want to very quickly destroy your equipment, as well as the environment. (Ever heard the term "salt the earth"?)

 

[RDKirk]

Contrary to what Trump and his mignons are saying there is plenty of fresh water in Los Angeles. The issue is getting that water into hilly and sometimes remote areas. It takes a lot of energy to make water flow uphill.

The most recent fire (I hope) in the Hollywood Hills is near the Hollywood Reservoir. The walking and biking trail around the lake is 3.5 miles long! The lake dwarfs the output of any conceivable desalination plant, which in any case would produce fresh water lower (thus needing more infrastructure to pump it uphill) and farther away from any of the current fires.

The issue is NOT available fresh water. But Trump wants to blame this on California's environmental efforts.

That doesn't wash, so to speak.

If you have the water and had the technology to make the water available where it would be needed, but didn't make the water available, then that's on you. Hold your officials accountable. The insurance companies warned you.

 

[RDKirk]

It is, unless you want to very quickly destroy your equipment, as well as the environment. (Ever heard the term "salt the earth"?)

It's questionable whether any armies ever actually "salted the earth."

How is it that Gulf Coast and East coast areas bounce back after the ocean floods them?

 

[Nithavela]

How is it that Gulf Coast and East coast areas bounce back after the ocean floods them?

Can you give an example of such an area bouncing back?

 

[RDKirk]

Can you give an example of such an area bouncing back?

Florida. The entire state.

 

[Nithavela]

Florida. The entire state.

Do the everglades have the same flora as the hills of california?

 

[prodromos]

So, the state made a decision, the people voted for them to make that decision.

Funny, though, that areas frequently flooded by seawater seem to lack that problem.

Salinity in the soil is a serious problem in Australia.

Salt, the white death destroying Australia's farmland

Australia has a silent crisis on its hands and the threat is looming just beneath the surface of the country's most fertile food bowls. Now farmers are looking at new ways to deal with the problem.

www.abc.net.au

 

[RDKirk]

Do the everglades have the same flora as the hills of california?

You choose your own poison.

 

[Nithavela]

You choose your own poison.

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

What I mean is that the plants endemic to the areas on fire are not adapted to salt water, and so can't "bounce back" as easily as in coastal areas that are regularily flooded.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

That doesn't wash, so to speak.

If you have the water and had the technology to make the water available where it would be needed, but didn't make the water available, then that's on you. Hold your officials accountable. The insurance companies warned you.

I'm not sure why you're still arguing about whether they should have been using seawater to fight the fires. There's literally video of planes and helicopters picking up water from the ocean and dropping on the fires. The issues have been a combination of weather/conditions preventing aircraft from flying and hydrant systems not being designed to combat wildfires (it's simply not practical to do this).

https://www.fastcompany.com/91257972/why-fire-hydrants-were-never-going-to-be-enough-to-combat-l-a-s-fires

Why hydrants ran dry as firefighters battled California's deadly fires

Firefighters in Pacific Palisades and Altadena have repeatedly been hampered by low water pressure and dry hydrants, revealing limitations in local water systems designed to supply neighborhoods.

www.latimes.com

The reality is that there's not much you can do to stop the spread of a fire when you have 100 mph wind gusts blowing embers everywhere.

 

[keith99]

What does one have to do with the other? It's okay for California to sit on its hands until Florida does something first?

California has not been sitting on its hands. But some Republicans are proposing to limit aid to California. California has contributed far more to federal coffers over the years. But it seems in some eyes not voting for Trump is just cause to deny federal aid that other areas have gotten over teh years.

 

[wing2000]

It is also a good idea, IMO, to get the various levels of government in California practice and put in place actions that would prevent the annual wildfires in California become as devastating as what we've seen almost every year.

California has such programs already in place.

Restoring and Maintaining Forest Ecosystem Health and Wildfire Resilience

resources.ca.gov

I'm sure the governor of California, and indeed, governors of other Western states, would welcome an additional investment by the US congress to manage forest lands of our country.

 

[BPPLEE]

California has not been sitting on its hands. But some Republicans are proposing to limit aid to California. California has contributed far more to federal coffers over the years. But it seems in some eyes not voting for Trump is just cause to deny federal aid that other areas have gotten over teh years.

When you say California has contributed far more to federal coffers do you mean the citizens paying federal income taxes.?
i’m wondering because I have been seeing this claim frequently

 

[Hans Blaster]

When you say California has contributed far more to federal coffers do you mean the citizens paying federal income taxes.?
i’m wondering because I have been seeing this claim frequently

Yes, that is what is meant. I don't find it a persuasive argument .

The things that set it are a larger proportion of high-income persons paying income taxes (or corporate taxes) versus high federal expediture per capita.

 

[RDKirk]

I'm not sure why you're still arguing about whether they should have been using seawater to fight the fires. There's literally video of planes and helicopters picking up water from the ocean and dropping on the fires. The issues have been a combination of weather/conditions preventing aircraft from flying and hydrant systems not being designed to combat wildfires (it's simply not practical to do this).

https://www.fastcompany.com/91257972/why-fire-hydrants-were-never-going-to-be-enough-to-combat-l-a-s-fires

Why hydrants ran dry as firefighters battled California's deadly fires

Firefighters in Pacific Palisades and Altadena have repeatedly been hampered by low water pressure and dry hydrants, revealing limitations in local water systems designed to supply neighborhoods.

www.latimes.com

The reality is that there's not much you can do to stop the spread of a fire when you have 100 mph wind gusts blowing embers everywhere.

They didn't plan to use seawater, when it was obviously available.

The obvious question, though, is what did they plan for? It's the same question we were asking Texas during the big winter freeze of 2021.

They were planning for the climate to be as it always has been, when it's clear that the climate is changing for the more extreme.

This highlights my frustration with the politics of the climate change issue. The climate is, indeed changing, but the high-level federal political debate is on whether humans started--and can reverse--climate change while nobody is discussing what states and localities should be doing to endure the changing climate. At this point, the balance may have tipped beyond the point that humans can pull it back, and it's clear that there is not the global political will necessary to pull it back (it looks like we'd have to take global technology back to the pre-agricultural stage).

 

[iluvatar5150]

When you say California has contributed far more to federal coffers do you mean the citizens paying federal income taxes.?
i’m wondering because I have been seeing this claim frequently

Wealthy states tend to contribute more to federal coffers than they receive back in federal expenditures (including medicaid/medicare, salaries, welfare, etc). The opposite is true for poor states. From the little bit I've looked into it, the same seems to be true at the state level, too, where wealthy counties kick in more than they get back and poor counties are net recipients.

 

[BPPLEE]

Wealthy states tend to contribute more to federal coffers than they receive back in federal expenditures (including medicaid/medicare, salaries, welfare, etc). The opposite is true for poor states. From the little bit I've looked into it, the same seems to be true at the state level, too, where wealthy counties kick in more than they get back and poor counties are net recipients.

You didn’t answer the question.

 

[Nithavela]

They didn't plan to use seawater, when it was obviously available.

The obvious question, though, is what did they plan for? It's the same question we were asking Texas during the big winter freeze of 2021.

They were planning for the climate to be as it always has been, when it's clear that the climate is changing for the more extreme.

This highlights my frustration with the politics of the climate change issue. The climate is, indeed changing, but the high-level federal political debate is on whether humans started--and can reverse--climate change while nobody is discussing what states and localities should be doing to endure the changing climate. At this point, the balance may have tipped beyond the point that humans can pull it back, and it's clear that there is not the global political will necessary to pull it back (it looks like we'd have to take global technology back to the pre-agricultural stage).

Preventing climate change would have been expensive.

Enduring climate change would be expensive.

Dying out will be free.

 

[Chesterton]

The obvious question, though, is what did they plan for? It's the same question we were asking Texas during the big winter freeze of 2021.

There's a difference in that what happened in Texas was unprecedented, record-breaking cold in terms of both extremity and duration. California forest fires are certainly not unprecedented.

I might add that the Texas power grid is managed by ERCOT, which for some weird reason is or was governed partially by Californians, Europeans and others of their ilk.

During the February 2021 storm, it emerged that a third of ERCOT's board of directors lived outside of Texas: Chairperson Sally A. Talberg lived in Michigan, Vice-Chair Peter Cramton lived in California and worked for universities in Germany and Maryland, and three board members lived in Toronto, Illinois, and Maine respectively.[58] This revelation drew considerable anger from the public as well as elected representatives, and the board members' names and photographs were temporarily removed from the ERCOT website due to death threats.[59][60] The board was also criticized for its meeting days before the storm: though the meeting lasted more than two hours, the members spent less than a minute discussing storm preparations and readiness.[61][62][63][64] On February 23, ERCOT announced the resignation of the five out-of-state board members effective the end of the board meeting the following day.[65][66][67] In October 2021, El Paso billionaire Paul Foster became the new Chairperson even though El Paso is not part of the Texas power grid. The other open positions were filled afterwards.[68] Foster resigned in June 2024. - Wiki​

 

[wing2000]

There's a difference in that what happened in Texas was unprecedented, record-breaking cold in terms of both extremity and duration. California forest fires are certainly not unprecedented.

The combination of conditions were unprecedented:

- Virtually no rain in 2024. As I quoted previously: Since May 6, only 0.03 inches of rain has fallen. Drought abruptly set in. All the extra growth suddenly dried out and died. That littered the ground with fuels and made the perfect recipe for voracious fires.

- 2x the amount of rainfall in the prior two years, leading to overgrowth.

-Santa Ana Winds combined with anther wether front to produce winds in excess of 80 mph.


Once those fires started (under investigation), there is no possible way for humans to stop them.