The Purpose of the Earth

[bling]

It is good that you put more into spiritual things.
Do you teach persons only in person, or online as well?

I do both, many are too far away for us to get together, lots former in person students going to university here, some returning home to China.

You seem to want to get on to me because it seems to you I am a false teacher, but if you are right and I am wrong, how have I jeopardize their salvation?

But if I am right and you are wrong, have you jeopardized to the salvation of those you are teaching?

Part of the reason I have gotten so deep in our discussion is because one of my Chinese students here in the USA is being questioned at his Chinese Church about Revelations and similar ideas to what you seem to be teaching. I for the most part avoid Rev. and have not studied it in 20 years, so am doing another study of it.

I dusted off a couple of books by my old teacher Dr. Ian A. Fair, the commentary “Conquering with Christ”, being the larger and my Chinese student purchased the same, so we could study together. I would recommend this book for you also, He has taught New Testament Scripture at the Graduate level for 40+ years and has a Ph.D in theology, not just some preacher’s book.

My ideas have changed over our discussion, but really from reading Dr. Fair’s book.

I have edited my post @bling.

Since the Bible says that the Devil is misleading/deceiving persons now 2 Corinthians 4:3, 4; 1 John 5:19; Revelation 12:9, and has been misleading/deceiving persons from the beginning John 8:44, what Revelation 20:3 tells us, is that will not be the case for the 1,000 years, because Satan the Devil will be bound in the abyss, "so that he should not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed".

2 Cor. 4: 2…On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we preach is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord,…

1 John 5: 19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

Rev. 12: 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

John 8: 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Rev. 20: And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

Do you believe mature adults on earth today can make autonomous free will choices or does God or satan make their choices for them?

If satan is responsible for my bad choice, why not just go on sinning here on earth and make it up in the 1000 years?

Can people truthfully say: “The devil made me do it”?

Why isn’t being tortured to death for the cause, just to rule in heaven with Christ not a high price to pay for being one in 144,000?

You seem to avoid a discussion of these verses:

Rev. 20: 7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Why is satan released at all?

Why is there a need to go back to deceiving nations on earth?

Is it a literal number equal to the sands of the seashore?

Who are these people being deceived?

Could we be living in this time right now (after the1000 years reign)?

I see satan being limited, but since he has a purpose, he still does deceive individuals.

The question is... do you, a person who assumes to be a teacher of the Bible, to others, and thus, one who will be judged with a heavier judgment, accept that, the Bible says the Devil who is misleading/deceiving the whole world, will be bound for 1,000 years, so that he does not mislead/deceive the nations any longer, until the 1,000 years have ended? Do you?

I do not believe in a literal “1000 years”, but do you?

Psalms 50: 10 for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills.

In this Poetic psalm, we have cattle on 1000 hills, but “hills” is not to be taken literally and is just added to be poetic, similar to the adding of “years” to a 1000 years. The 1000 shows completeness and has nothing to do with time.

Since the Devil is not yet bound, Revelation 12:9 is still in progress, and the kingdom did not come before Revelation 11:15-12:10.
Therefore, if you are to be on the right track, in line with the scriptures, you need to readjust your timeline and events.
It's the humble thing to do. Not to mention. it is the only wise choice to make, since according to Jesus, everlasting life depends on knowing the truth. John18:37

If the devil is not “bound”, than we are living after the completion of the reign, which I see as being very possible.

I was going to ask you for one of those Bible studies, since I was curious to see how you go about studying the Bible with persons. It depends though, on how you respond to this.

Were you taught by someone, or are you self taught?

I use only the Bible (can work with most versions), except for Revelations. I avoid books and commentaries, except afterwards I might look to see what others are saying.

I did have a PhD scholar teacher on earth for a while, who never told you anything, provided only options, gave pros and cons, explained the Greek and/or Hebrew, answered every question with a question. He was a one-on-one teacher, but took another church member with him to his one-on-one studies, expecting them to do at least seven hours of preparation (fasting, praying, studying questions he provided, meditation and listening, each week). At 40 yrs old, he started also preaching the way he did one on one studies, so an hour-long sermon. He never gave you answers, so he was no help. That church had explosive growth.

You might say, “I am self-taught”, but I just study what will help me grow or someone I am studying with to grow. If I truly need to know (not: to just win an argument, put someone down, look scholarly, for the praises of men, be intellectual, or something selfish) I can know. Serving others is my joy.

 

[CoreyD]

I do both, many are too far away for us to get together, lots former in person students going to university here, some returning home to China.

How do you do online courses? What are the procedures?

You seem to want to get on to me because it seems to you I am a false teacher, but if you are right and I am wrong, how have I jeopardize their salvation?

I believe you may be sincere, but being sincerely wrong does not mean one cannot mislead others.
Did Jesus not say, if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit? A blind person is still responsible for the death of those they lead, and being blind is only due to being stubborn... that is, not humble, but proud.

But if I am right and you are wrong, have you jeopardized to the salvation of those you are teaching?

If I am wrong, I do not help those I teach, to get on the road to life.
Both I and them would be on the road to destruction.
There are only two roads. Not 3, or 12,000. Matthew 7:13, 14
We are either on the narrow road, or the broad. One leads to life, and the other to destruction.
To be on the road to life, one has to find it, and then get on it. Thereby, leaving the road to destruction.

Part of the reason I have gotten so deep in our discussion is because one of my Chinese students here in the USA is being questioned at his Chinese Church about Revelations and similar ideas to what you seem to be teaching. I for the most part avoid Rev. and have not studied it in 20 years, so am doing another study of it.

Some people use Revelation, only when they imagine it is convenient to use it.
They use it, for example, to mention the torment of the Devil, or the sea being no more, but they ignore that Revelation is given in signs, and for the future - written some 50 years after Jesus went to heaven.
So they do not really care that Revelation does not apply to anything prior to 80 C.E. Yet they insist it does.

You are doing the same thing they do, when you apply Revelation to Pentecost.

I dusted off a couple of books by my old teacher Dr. Ian A. Fair, the commentary “Conquering with Christ”, being the larger and my Chinese student purchased the same, so we could study together. I would recommend this book for you also, He has taught New Testament Scripture at the Graduate level for 40+ years and has a Ph.D in theology, not just some preacher’s book.

So, you are deferring me to a book.
Why would you think I need a book from "Dr. Ian A. Fair"?

Why do you think having a PhD in theology, makes one better equipped than, say, the man that Phillip taught?
Why is it not better to be taught by a minister of God, and follower of Jesus Christ?

My ideas have changed over our discussion, but really from reading Dr. Fair’s book.

I'm interested to know what "ideas have changed over our discussion", if you don't mind sharing.

2 Cor. 4: 2…On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we preach is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord,…

1 John 5: 19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

Rev. 12: 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

John 8: 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Rev. 20: And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

Do you believe mature adults on earth today can make autonomous free will choices or does God or satan make their choices for them?

If satan is responsible for my bad choice, why not just go on sinning here on earth and make it up in the 1000 years?

Can people truthfully say: “The devil made me do it”?

Are people today being misled, and have this been happening from the Garden of Eden?
Can you answer yes or no, please.

Why isn’t being tortured to death for the cause, just to rule in heaven with Christ not a high price to pay for being one in 144,000?

You seem to avoid a discussion of these verses:

Rev. 20: 7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Why is satan released at all?

Why is there a need to go back to deceiving nations on earth?

Is it a literal number equal to the sands of the seashore?

Who are these people being deceived?

Could we be living in this time right now (after the1000 years reign)?

I see satan being limited, but since he has a purpose, he still does deceive individuals.

I do not believe in a literal “1000 years”, but do you?

Psalms 50: 10 for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills.

In this Poetic psalm, we have cattle on 1000 hills, but “hills” is not to be taken literally and is just added to be poetic, similar to the adding of “years” to a 1000 years. The 1000 shows completeness and has nothing to do with time.



If the devil is not “bound”, than we are living after the completion of the reign, which I see as being very possible.

I use only the Bible (can work with most versions), except for Revelations. I avoid books and commentaries, except afterwards I might look to see what others are saying.

I did have a PhD scholar teacher on earth for a while, who never told you anything, provided only options, gave pros and cons, explained the Greek and/or Hebrew, answered every question with a question. He was a one-on-one teacher, but took another church member with him to his one-on-one studies, expecting them to do at least seven hours of preparation (fasting, praying, studying questions he provided, meditation and listening, each week). At 40 yrs old, he started also preaching the way he did one on one studies, so an hour-long sermon. He never gave you answers, so he was no help. That church had explosive growth.

I'm only avoiding being distracted from what is actually being discussed.
Once we can establish an answer to a question, rather than dismiss it with something else, we can look at what other ideas you want to pursue.

You might say, “I am self-taught”, but I just study what will help me grow or someone I am studying with to grow. If I truly need to know (not: to just win an argument, put someone down, look scholarly, for the praises of men, be intellectual, or something selfish) I can know. Serving others is my joy.

It is important to know... not "just win an argument, put someone down, look scholarly, for the praises of men, be intellectual, or something selfish", but because it means eternal life. John 17:3

 

[bling]

How do you do online courses? What are the procedures?

I do Zoom Bible studies or we email back and forth like we are doing on CF. We read the Bible and ask each other questions or they have a question and look up verses which pertain to it.

I believe you may be sincere, but being sincerely wrong does not mean one cannot mislead others.
Did Jesus not say, if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit? A blind person is still responsible for the death of those they lead, and being blind is only due to being stubborn... that is, not humble, but proud.

With my students I try to let scripture answer their questions, but spend lots of time with the context of the scripture including: why it was written, at this time, to these Christians. We are always reading other people’s mail when reading the NT.

If I am wrong, I do not help those I teach, to get on the road to life.
Both I and them would be on the road to destruction.
There are only two roads. Not 3, or 12,000. Matthew 7:13, 14
We are either on the narrow road, or the broad. One leads to life, and the other to destruction.
To be on the road to life, one has to find it, and then get on it. Thereby, leaving the road to destruction.

How do my words lead a Christian or potential Christian to destruction, even if I am wrong?

Some people use Revelation, only when they imagine it is convenient to use it.
They use it, for example, to mention the torment of the Devil, or the sea being no more, but they ignore that Revelation is given in signs, and for the future - written some 50 years after Jesus went to heaven.
So they do not really care that Revelation does not apply to anything prior to 80 C.E. Yet they insist it does.

You are doing the same thing they do, when you apply Revelation to Pentecost.

John tells us very plainly in Chp. 1: 1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. …3 …take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

Pentecost is the start of the “Last Days”, not necessarily the beginning of the 1000 years, since “years” is more poetic than talking about time itself.

2 Timothy 3:1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days.

Hebrews 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe

The 1000 years has a general beginning on Pentecost, but John is writing about a specific destruction time about to come on the Churches of Asia.

So, you are deferring me to a book.
Why would you think I need a book from "Dr. Ian A. Fair"?

Why do you think having a PhD in theology, makes one better equipped than, say, the man that Phillip taught?
Why is it not better to be taught by a minister of God, and follower of Jesus Christ?

I very much believe the Holy Spirit can lead you, but I personally was taught by Dr. Fair and can recommend him, while I do not know others. He provides options, pro’s and con’s, know the Greek, and is not out to make money on the Book, all the proceeds go to a Christian University in Ghana.

Let me know what you think?

I'm interested to know what "ideas have changed over our discussion", if you don't mind sharing.

One big one is the fact that the 1000 years (or even a long time), might not have anything to do with time but like the 1000 hills, be an expression of completeness.

Rev. is written to the Churches in Asia Minor specifically, with the seven mentioned being representative of all those churches.

Are people today being misled, and have this been happening from the Garden of Eden?
Can you answer yes or no, please.

It depends on the way you are defining “misled”. Looking at Eve specifically:

Eve should not be hanging around the one tree she cannot eat from and is to be helping Adam.

There is only one way for Adam or Eve to sin at this time, but Eve is lusting after the fruit, coveting the knowledge the fruit possesses, is self-absorbed (being selfish and not partnering with Adam), she is not seeking superior counseling and so she is very willing to listen to what she wants to hear.

The devil is not putting the fruit in her mouth, but telling her what she want to hear (misleading her) into doing what she wants to do.

This is the way I see the Devil operating, but even without the devil around we would sin (covet/lust at least), but the devil brings to light what is on our hearts, which can and should help us to seek help. We wind up doing what we really did not want to do (like Paul when he was Saul in Ro. 7), but there is a way out Romans 8.

Will you answer my questions now:

Do you believe mature adults on earth today can make autonomous free will choices or does God or satan make some or all of their choices for them?

Can people truthfully say: “The devil made me do it”?

Can you today, keep from sinning again?

I'm only avoiding being distracted from what is actually being discussed.
Once we can establish an answer to a question, rather than dismiss it with something else, we can look at what other ideas you want to pursue.


It is important to know... not "just win an argument, put someone down, look scholarly, for the praises of men, be intellectual, or something selfish", but because it means eternal life. John 17:3

If you do nothing with what you know (help you and others be more like Christ serving others) than it would be better not to know.

To know Christ is to Love Christ and if you Love Christ you will obey Christ and to Obey Christ is to do what He did (unselfishly, unconditionally, sacrificially, serve others).

 

[CoreyD]

I do Zoom Bible studies or we email back and forth like we are doing on CF. We read the Bible and ask each other questions or they have a question and look up verses which pertain to it.

This sounds good to me.
Can I give you my email address, and you do a Bible study with me?

With my students I try to let scripture answer their questions, but spend lots of time with the context of the scripture including: why it was written, at this time, to these Christians.

Allowing scripture to answer Bible questions is good, but I am not seeing that here.
Why is there a difference?
For example, the question "what is purpose for the earth" was not answered by scriptures.
I provided the scriptures, but there was seemed to be a dismissal, and distraction toward something else.

Would you like to start again?
What is the purpose for the earth... the scriptural answer?

We are always reading other people’s mail when reading the NT.

How do you go about studying a particular scripture?
Do various people give an interpretation, or do you seek to consider every scripture that would relate to that scripture?

How do my words lead a Christian or potential Christian to destruction, even if I am wrong?

How did the teachers of the law - the Scribes, and Pharisees, lead people to destruction?
Scriptural answer:
Matthew 23:13-17

13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.​

15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.​

16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.’ 17 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold?​

Matthew 15:7-14

7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:​

8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”​

10 When He had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them, “Hear and understand: 11 Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.”​

12 Then His disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”​

13 But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. 14 Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”​

Can a person be misled into believing lies from Satan and the demons?
Scriptural answer:
2 Thessalonians 2:11

Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence, [an activity of error and deception [/ powerful delusion]] so they will believe the lie,​

1 Timothy 4:1, 2

1 Now the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will abandon the faith to follow deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons, 2 influenced by the hypocrisy of liars, whose consciences are seared with a hot iron.​

So, persons can be misled because they listened to others who were misled by false teachings, and be so blinded by those teachings, that they cannot see that they are wrong, because God let's them be strongly deluded, so as to believe the lie. They in turn become blind guides, leading their students into the pit of destruction - Gehenna.

John tells us very plainly in Chp. 1: 1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. …3 …take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

Pentecost is the start of the “Last Days”, not necessarily the beginning of the 1000 years, since “years” is more poetic than talking about time itself.

2 Timothy 3:1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days.

Hebrews 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe

Ah. I see where you got the idea the last days began at Pentecost.

Why do you believe that "these last days" are the same as "the last days when there will be terrible times"?
Does "will be", refer to present, or future?
When Jesus said, there will be a tribulation, was he referring to present, or future?

Paul said, in writing to Timothy, between 50-65 C.E.
2 Timothy 3:1, 2
1 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will be present. 2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boasters, proud, verbally abusive, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,

Two things to note.

1. The scriptures refer to future, of when Paul wrote to Timothy.
2. Paul wrote his letters at least 20 years after Jesus death, and resurrection, and 17 years after Pentecost.

Unless Paul did time travel back to Pentecost, it is impossible that these last days could refer to 33 C.E.
The same applies to his letter to the Hebrews.
You with me.

The Revelation to John was even later... 50 years or more, subsequent to Pentecost 33 C.E.

The 1000 years has a general beginning on Pentecost, but John is writing about a specific destruction time about to come on the Churches of Asia.

You are probably trying your best to understand, but evidently you need help, and obviously the guys with the PhDs in theology are not the best choice.
Humility is required if one is to know the truth.
That involves being like a child... willing to be taught Luke 10:21, and like the Ethiopian Eunuch, one needs to be to be honest, so that God directs his minister to one, and that one recognizes and accepts them.

Many people want to be teachers, but they are in need of being taught.
Perhaps you are just eager to share, but if you are in serious error, that puts your students in serious danger.

The 1,000 years in Revelation pertain to a period long into the future, of the things that must take place shortly.
We aren't looking at shortly, from an individuals perspective, and since John did not write Revelation before Pentecost 33 C.E., not during Pentecost 33 C.E., but around 80 C.E.... give or take 10 years, the Pentecost timeline is in serious error.

I said this before, but you did not consider it. Why is that, and can you explain how you got these apostles writing before Pentecost?

I very much believe the Holy Spirit can lead you, but I personally was taught by Dr. Fair and can recommend him, while I do not know others. He provides options, pro’s and con’s, know the Greek, and is not out to make money on the Book, all the proceeds go to a Christian University in Ghana.

Do you believe Jesus' disciples, whom are anointed by holy spirit, can guide you?
Do you believe Dr. Fair is a spirit annointed follower of Christ, and what particular marks would you say shows this?

Let me know what you think?

About what?

One big one is the fact that the 1000 years (or even a long time), might not have anything to do with time but like the 1000 hills, be an expression of completeness.

Hopefully you did not get that from me.

Rev. is written to the Churches in Asia Minor specifically, with the seven mentioned being representative of all those churches.

Do you believe there were Christians in Asia Minor only?

It depends on the way you are defining “misled”. Looking at Eve specifically:

Eve should not be hanging around the one tree she cannot eat from and is to be helping Adam.

There is only one way for Adam or Eve to sin at this time, but Eve is lusting after the fruit, coveting the knowledge the fruit possesses, is self-absorbed (being selfish and not partnering with Adam), she is not seeking superior counseling and so she is very willing to listen to what she wants to hear.

The devil is not putting the fruit in her mouth, but telling her what she want to hear (misleading her) into doing what she wants to do.

You did not answer the question.
The question is not, "Did the Devil force anyone to do something." That is not what the "student" is asking.

Letting the Bible answer a question, is not trying our best to explain a redefinition of a word, while still using the word.
Is that how you let the Bible answer the question for the student?

My question is...
Do you believe Eve was misled... deceived... whatever you prefer, as the Bible says?
1 Timothy 2:14 - And Adam was not deceived, but the woman, having been deceived, has come into transgression.
Can you please answer yes, or no.

Do you agree with, and accept that Satan is misleading/deceiving the whole world?
Revelation 12:9 - So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Can you please answer yes, or no.

This is the way I see the Devil operating, but even without the devil around we would sin (covet/lust at least), but the devil brings to light what is on our hearts, which can and should help us to seek help. We wind up doing what we really did not want to do (like Paul when he was Saul in Ro. 7), but there is a way out Romans 8.

Did Adam and Eve have sin in their heart?
Can you give me the Bible's answer, please.

Will you answer my questions now:

Do you believe mature adults on earth today can make autonomous free will choices or does God or satan make some or all of their choices for them?

Can people truthfully say: “The devil made me do it”?

Can you today, keep from sinning again?

I will be sure to answer your questions from the Bible, when you do answer the question, and we can establish that, and the related point of discussion.

If you do nothing with what you know (help you and others be more like Christ serving others) than it would be better not to know.

Matthew 7:21-27

To know Christ is to Love Christ and if you Love Christ you will obey Christ and to Obey Christ is to do what He did (unselfishly, unconditionally, sacrificially, serve others).

I agree.

 

[bling]

Hi Corey,

before going on with our discussion I had some pressing questions on my mind, which I was hoping you would address:

You accuse me of being a “False Teacher”, seemingly because I do not teach a “Second Chance”, but am I, not teaching what the Bible up until Rev. 20 teaches?

Why can I not find this “Second Chance” idea, anywhere else in scripture prior to Rev. 20?

Everywhere else in scripture there appears to be one choice prior to the death of a mature adult, which determines their eternal destiny, but do you read or interpret some verses saying something else prior to Rev. 20?

Revelation totally, including after chapter 19 is: poetic, figurative and apocalyptic. So, does Rev. 20+ need to be explained and not just taken literally as a proof text?

 

[CoreyD]

Hi Corey,

before going on with our discussion I had some pressing questions on my mind, which I was hoping you would address:

You accuse me of being a “False Teacher”, seemingly because I do not teach a “Second Chance”, but am I, not teaching what the Bible up until Rev. 20 teaches?

Please quote me accusing you of being a false teacher.

Why can I not find this “Second Chance” idea, anywhere else in scripture prior to Rev. 20?

Everywhere else in scripture there appears to be one choice prior to the death of a mature adult, which determines their eternal destiny, but do you read or interpret some verses saying something else prior to Rev. 20?

Revelation totally, including after chapter 19 is: poetic, figurative and apocalyptic. So, does Rev. 20+ need to be explained and not just taken literally as a proof text?

I quoted the scripture more than once, bling.
Perhaps you forgot, since it has been a long conversation, or it could be, you might need to process the thought expressed, rather than stating what you believe the scripture is saying.
In the case of the latter, it would save me having to either dig through the thread, or research those scriptures again, if these could be considered, more carefully.

There is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and unrighteous. Acts 24:15; John 5:28, 29
No resurrection of the wicked.

A righteous person is one that knows what is right, and does it. Matthew 7:24, 25
An unrighteous person is one that does not know what is right, and therefore, does not do it. Jonah 4:11
A wicked person is one that knows what is right, and does not do it. Matthew 7:26, 27; Luke 19:22, 23; John 9:41; John 15:22; James 4:17;

These unrighteous ones will include many unrighteous ones, that did not learn the truth about God and Christ.
Matthew 10:15; Matthew 11:20-24; Matthew 12:41, 42; Luke 10:12-15; Luke 11:31, 32
Notice that they are raised up in the judgment on judgment day, and this is not a 24 hour day. since Jesus and the Saints judge for 1,000 years, and the high priest, and the 144,000 priests intercede in behalf of the people, during those 1,000 years of rule.
Revelation 5:10; Revelation 20:6

 

[bling]

This sounds good to me.
Can I give you my email address, and you do a Bible study with me?

I have no “set” Bible Study program, so it can be anywhere in the Bible depending on the personal needs of the student.

For, new to the Bible, I will start with Luke and I might start there with people calling themselves “Christians”. I had a Korean working on an MBA, wanting to learn conversational English, so I said we would use the Bible. He said he was a Baptist, but did not even have a Bible. He later just wanted to do a Bible study and his wife and kids wanted to study with my wife, but his wife was an artist traveling all over the world and he took a job with Google in Austin. Their three kids were extremely talented musicians (part of the reason they moved to Texas) and so we struggled to meet. He and family do go to church weekly.

Not sure what would be best for us, let me think about it and give you some options.

Allowing scripture to answer Bible questions is good, but I am not seeing that here.
Why is there a difference?

Most of my time is spent addressing alternative interpretation to the scriptures you quote or just list.

For example, the question "what is purpose for the earth" was not answered by scriptures.
I provided the scriptures, but there was seemed to be a dismissal, and distraction toward something else.

Would you like to start again?
What is the purpose for the earth... the scriptural answer?

We are somewhat in agreement of “earth’s purpose”, since it is very much made for “Mankind”, but “Mankind” was not made to keep the “earth” going. The “Earth” is just a small rock in a huge universe and this huge universe (also made for man) is just a drop in God’s bucket.

The better question is: “What is the objective (purpose) for creating humans and putting them on earth”. Again, man’s objective is not to take care of the earth, but we are commanded to do it.

Everything was made to help humans in fulfilling their purpose/objective (everything is logically objective drive for humans).

How do you go about studying a particular scripture?
Do various people give an interpretation, or do you seek to consider every scripture that would relate to that scripture?

First and foremost!! Why do I want to know what a particular scripture says??? If I have only intellectual reasons, academic reason, trying to support some bet idea I have, trying to look intelligent to others, need to win an argument, trying to put someone down or any other selfish reason, I can expect no help from the Spirit. I do not have time to study everything and I need to continue growing and helping others to grow.

If I have the right motive than I: pray, meditate, study (look up all the scripture I can find on the subject, think about, wait on the Spirit for ideas, fast if I have time and bounce the idea off other like-minded Christians. Afterwards, I might look at commentaries to see what others are thinking.

How did the teachers of the law - the Scribes, and Pharisees, lead people to destruction?
Scriptural answer:
Matthew 23:13-17

​

Matthew 15:7-14

​

Can a person be misled into believing lies from Satan and the demons?
Scriptural answer:
2 Thessalonians 2:11

Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence, [an activity of error and deception [/ powerful delusion]] so they will believe the lie,​

1 Timothy 4:1, 2

1 Now the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will abandon the faith to follow deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons, 2 influenced by the hypocrisy of liars, whose consciences are seared with a hot iron.​

So, persons can be misled because they listened to others who were misled by false teachings, and be so blinded by those teachings, that they cannot see that they are wrong, because God let's them be strongly deluded, so as to believe the lie. They in turn become blind guides, leading their students into the pit of destruction - Gehenna.

That really does not address “me” and what I am saying.

I teach: Heb. 9: 27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

I do not teach a second chance, but if there is a, “second chance”, how does teach and believing one chance, keep people from making their choice now?

Did Peter in Acts 2 suggest a second chance?

Other than using very poetic Revelation, are there other verses teaching a second chance?

Ah. I see where you got the idea the last days began at Pentecost.
Why do you believe that "these last days" are the same as "the last days when there will be terrible times"?
Does "will be", refer to present, or future?
When Jesus said, there will be a tribulation, was he referring to present, or future?

Paul said, in writing to Timothy, between 50-65 C.E.
2 Timothy 3:1, 2
1 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will be present. 2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boasters, proud, verbally abusive, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,

Two things to note.

1. The scriptures refer to future, of when Paul wrote to Timothy.
2. Paul wrote his letters at least 20 years after Jesus death, and resurrection, and 17 years after Pentecost.

Unless Paul did time travel back to Pentecost, it is impossible that these last days could refer to 33 C.E.
The same applies to his letter to the Hebrews.
You with me.

The Revelation to John was even later... 50 years or more, subsequent to Pentecost 33 C.E.

Matt. 10: 34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn “‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

Luke 12: 49 “I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed! 51 Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division.

Matt. 5: 10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Mark 13:9 “You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them.

Acts 8:1 On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria. 2 Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him. 3 But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off both men and women and put them in prison.

There is persecution going on and growing starting shortly after Pentecost in Jerusalem and following the spread of the church, it is not something way off in the future.

You are probably trying your best to understand, but evidently you need help, and obviously the guys with the PhDs in theology are not the best choice.
Humility is required if one is to know the truth.
That involves being like a child... willing to be taught Luke 10:21, and like the Ethiopian Eunuch, one needs to be to be honest, so that God directs his minister to one, and that one recognizes and accepts them.

Many people want to be teachers, but they are in need of being taught.
Perhaps you are just eager to share, but if you are in serious error, that puts your students in serious danger.

I keep asking: “Even if I am wrong about this future 1000 year reign on earth, how does that put my students in “serious danger”?

The 1,000 years in Revelation pertain to a period long into the future, of the things that must take place shortly.
We aren't looking at shortly, from an individuals perspective, and since John did not write Revelation before Pentecost 33 C.E., not during Pentecost 33 C.E., but around 80 C.E.... give or take 10 years, the Pentecost timeline is in serious error.

I said this before, but you did not consider it. Why is that, and can you explain how you got these apostles writing before Pentecost?

John is writing what will shortly be rolling out in Asian Minor. It is all part of the “last days”.

Do you believe Jesus' disciples, whom are anointed by holy spirit, can guide you?
Do you believe Dr. Fair is a spirit annointed follower of Christ, and what particular marks would you say shows this?

Lots of people were taught by non-apostles and even before there was a Bible. You always need to look at where the teacher got their information and definitions from and why they drew their conclusion.

Since the objective would logically drive everything, what is man’s objective?

About what?


Hopefully you did not get that from me.


Do you believe there were Christians in Asia Minor only?

No, but we are reading their mail to them.

You did not answer the question.
The question is not, "Did the Devil force anyone to do something." That is not what the "student" is asking.

Letting the Bible answer a question, is not trying our best to explain a redefinition of a word, while still using the word.
Is that how you let the Bible answer the question for the student?

Most differences between sincere Christians, happen when the same word is used with different meanings by both of them.

There is no “redefining”, but different ways of defining the same word.

My question is...
Do you believe Eve was misled... deceived... whatever you prefer, as the Bible says?
1 Timothy 2:14 - And Adam was not deceived, but the woman, having been deceived, has come into transgression.
Can you please answer yes, or no.

By my understanding of the scriptures definition of “deceived”, Eve was deceived.

Do you agree with, and accept that Satan is misleading/deceiving the whole world?
Revelation 12:9 - So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Can you please answer yes, or no.

Prior to us having the indwelling Holy Spirit, satan could deceive anyone and everyone, but a human with the indwelling Holy Spirit (Ro. 8) is very limited and cannot deceive that person unless the person quenches the Spirit.

Did Adam and Eve have sin in their heart?
Can you give me the Bible's answer, please.

Again, not sure what you mean by “sin in their heart”, but they sinned Gen. 3 and it was their choice.

I will be sure to answer your questions from the Bible, when you do answer the question, and we can establish that, and the related point of discussion.


Matthew 7:21-27


I agree.

 

[bling]

Please quote me accusing you of being a false teacher.

Many people want to be teachers, but they are in need of being taught.

Perhaps you are just eager to share, but if you are in serious error, that puts your students in serious danger.

Are you not suggesting I am in “serious error”, since you strongly appose what I am saying?

I quoted the scripture more than once, bling.
Perhaps you forgot, since it has been a long conversation, or it could be, you might need to process the thought expressed, rather than stating what you believe the scripture is saying.
In the case of the latter, it would save me having to either dig through the thread, or research those scriptures again, if these could be considered, more carefully.

There is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and unrighteous. Acts 24:15; John 5:28, 29

Again you give only the location of scripture with no explanation on how that verse supports your idea of a second chance (after dying )

Acts 24:15 15 and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. 16 So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man.

“These men” is referring to Pharisees, since Sadducees do not belief in any resurrection.

Of course the wicked and righteous are resurrected and the wicked immediately go to judgement. Paul is doing all he can while on earth (keep my conscience clear before God and man) to avoid the judgement, since he does not suggest a second chance.

John 5: 28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

John states it very clearly, the wicked rise to condemnation (which does not suggest a second chance).

No resurrection of the wicked.

I never even suggested such an idea???

A righteous person is one that knows what is right, and does it. Matthew 7:24, 25
An unrighteous person is one that does not know what is right, and therefore, does not do it. Jonah 4:11

That is not what is being said in Jonah 4, since God does not call them “unrighteous!” in Jonah 4: 11 And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left—and also many animals?”

I would call those 120,000 people, “innocent”, never having a “first chance to accept God’s help.”

A wicked person is one that knows what is right, and does not do it. Matthew 7:26, 27; Luke 19:22, 23; John 9:41; John 15:22; James 4:17;

These unrighteous ones will include many unrighteous ones, that did not learn the truth about God and Christ.

Where does the Bible exclude the wicked from being “unrighteous” also?

Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

2 Peter 2:9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.

You are the one coming up with the idea: the unrighteous are treated differently than the wicked, as far as I can tell?

Matthew 10:15; Matthew 11:20-24; Matthew 12:41, 42; Luke 10:12-15; Luke 11:31, 32
Notice that they are raised up in the judgment on judgment day, and this is not a 24 hour day. since Jesus and the Saints judge for 1,000 years, and the high priest, and the 144,000 priests intercede in behalf of the people, during those 1,000 years of rule.
Revelation 5:10; Revelation 20:6

I fully agree that “Judgement Day” is not talking about 24 hours, nor is it like a trial by jury, since what you did or did not do, while you lived on earth has already determined your outcome. It is more like the sentencing phase of the “trial”, which has also already been set by what you did on earth.

Looking at Rev. 5: 9 And they sang a new song, saying:



“You are worthy to take the scroll

and to open its seals,

because you were slain,

and with your blood you purchased for God

persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.

10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,

and they will reign on the earth.”

All of Rev. 5 is very figurative and poetic like: …The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth, so we need to read it as such.



1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

We are now, that kingdom of priests.



Again, where does scripture talk about this “second chance” other than the way you interpret Rev. after Rev. 19?

 

[CoreyD]

We are somewhat in agreement of “earth’s purpose”, since it is very much made for “Mankind”, but “Mankind” was not made to keep the “earth” going. The “Earth” is just a small rock in a huge universe and this huge universe (also made for man) is just a drop in God’s bucket.

The better question is: “What is the objective (purpose) for creating humans and putting them on earth”. Again, man’s objective is not to take care of the earth, but we are commanded to do it.

The scriptural answer... if you are interested in that, was given to you, for the answer to the question "What is the objective (purpose) for creating humans and putting them on earth”.
Genesis 1:26-28
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

Acts 17:24-31
24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

Here is one more, that supports what Paul is saying.
Revelation 4:11
"Worthy are You, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will, they existed and were created."

What is the purpose and objective given in those verses, and why do you think, these verses have not answered that question?

I do not teach a second chance, but if there is a, “second chance”, how does teach and believing one chance, keep people from making their choice now?

Jesus said... and these words are direct...
John 17:3 - Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.
John 4:24, 25
23 But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him.
24 God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

According to Jesus, the requirement for gaining eternal life is to know God, and Jesus Christ.
Can one know God and Jesus Christ, if one does not know the truth about God, and Jesus Christ?
Can one worship God in spirit and truth, if one does not know the truth about God, and Jesus Christ?
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

If it is God's will to give the unrighteous an opportunity to get to know him, and serve him, is knowing this, an aspect of knowledge about God and his son Jesus Christ, and is that important?

Did Peter in Acts 2 suggest a second chance?

Paul did more than suggest it. Acts 24:15
Jesus stated it several times. John 5:28, 29; Matthew 10:15; Matthew 11:20-24; Matthew 12:41, 42; Luke 10:12-15; Luke 11:31, 32
John was given a Revelation of it. Revelation 20:11-15

Revelation is not poetic. It's symbolic. Just clarifying that.
Though symbolic, much of what it says relates to what we know about.

Be right back.

 

[CoreyD]

John is writing what will shortly be rolling out in Asian Minor. It is all part of the “last days”.

Is John writing before Pentecost 33 C.E., or after Pentecost 33 C.E.?

By my understanding of the scriptures definition of “deceived”, Eve was deceived.

Okay.

1. Was Eve deceived by Satan the Devil?
2. Is Satan the Devil the deceiver of his world 2 Corinthians 4:3, 4, and is Satan the Devil deceiving the world? Revelation 12:9?

Prior to us having the indwelling Holy Spirit, satan could deceive anyone and everyone, but a human with the indwelling Holy Spirit (Ro. 8) is very limited and cannot deceive that person unless the person quenches the Spirit.

Us?
Did I ask you if Satan is deceiving those "having the indwelling Holy Spirit"?
Is that what you understood me to be asking, when I used the expressions, "the whole world", and "the nations"?

Again, not sure what you mean by “sin in their heart”, but they sinned Gen. 3 and it was their choice.

I was asking the question from the standpoint of your statement.
bling said:
This is the way I see the Devil operating, but even without the devil around we would sin (covet/lust at least), but the devil brings to light what is on our hearts, which can and should help us to seek help. We wind up doing what we really did not want to do (like Paul when he was Saul in Ro. 7), but there is a way out Romans 8.

What did you mean by "the devil brings to light what is on our hearts", and then linking that with Romans 7, where Paul refers to sin that dwells in him?
Were you not referring to sin in our heart?

Please explain, and then answer the question, because .whatever you meant, is what I am asking.
Did Adam and Eve have that?

 

[CoreyD]

Many people want to be teachers, but they are in need of being taught.

Perhaps you are just eager to share, but if you are in serious error, that puts your students in serious danger.

Are you not suggesting I am in “serious error”, since you strongly appose what I am saying?

I am not suggesting that what you have presented, is in serious error.
I am saying that what you have presented is in serious error... directly.
I don't think you are here arguing against me. and referring to what i say as nonsense, because you think I am speaking truth.
All of us on these forums pretty much tell everyone their belief is seriously flawed.
Are you denying this?

That is not the same thing as saying you are a false prophet, or teacher.
We all know the rules here.
If someone out-rightly tells another, they are wrong, which I have been told, they have not accused the person of being a false teacher.
We do not disagree with someone we think are right. We disagree because we think they are wrong.

Again you give only the location of scripture with no explanation on how that verse supports your idea of a second chance (after dying )

I think you need to go back through the thread, and find those places where I do not just quote these scriptures, but they actually follow my statements regarding why I quote them.
I don't post scriptures without explaining why they are there.

The only time I ever post a scripture without comments regarding the contents of scripture, is when I am answering a question, and the scripture directly answers it. I don't think I did that in this conversation.
In my entire conversation with you, I quote or reference scripture, to back up what I said.

What happens, as i mentioned, is rather than give thought to what i actually said, you gave your view of what the scripture means to you.

Acts 24:15 15 and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. 16 So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man.

“These men” is referring to Pharisees, since Sadducees do not belief in any resurrection.

Of course the wicked and righteous are resurrected and the wicked immediately go to judgement. Paul is doing all he can while on earth (keep my conscience clear before God and man) to avoid the judgement, since he does not suggest a second chance.

If persons accept translations that use words loosely, they will get a wrong understanding of the text, and this is one of those cases.
The Greek word adikos is derived from the Greek prefix "α-" (a-), meaning "not," and "δίκη" (dikē), meaning "justice" or "righteousness.".

I'll stick with the word usage here,
Not doing what is right does not mean wicked. It means unjust - not just, or unrighteous - not righteous.
The Ninevites were not wicked, from God's standpoint, even though they did what was bad. They simply lived according to what they knew.

A person may grow up in an environment of vice, where drugs, alcohol, and immoral sex, is practiced. Because such a person practices these thing, that does not make them wicked.
They are not righteous of course, because they do not know what is right, and practice it. That makes them unrighteous.

There is a marked difference between an unrighteous person, and a wicked person, and shown in the scriptures. Jonah 4:11
Scriptures such as Proverbs 11:7, specifies the wicked, and says... When the wicked man dies, his hope perishes, and the hope of his strength vanishes.
That contradict the idea of the wicked receiving a resurrection, and goes contrary to Hebrews 10:26.

There isn't anything else, I would be able to show a person that believes the wicked will be resurrected, if they think Paul said the "righteous and the wicked".
What I would do, in the case with someone I am studying the Bible with, who hold that view, is ask if an unrighteous person is the same as a wicked person, and if they say yes, I would ask if being unrighteous necessarily means wicked.
If they do believe that, and I showing the difference, along with the use of scriptures:

A righteous person is one that knows what is right, and does it. Matthew 7:24, 25​

An unrighteous person is one that does not know what is right, and therefore, does not do it. Jonah 4:11​

A wicked person is one that knows what is right, and does not do it. Matthew 7:26, 27; Luke 19:22, 23; John 9:41; John 15:22; James 4:17;​

...and using examples:

A man smokes cigarettes, and has immoral sex, but has not learned about Christ.​

A man has learned about Christ, and has been taught scriptures about God's view on immorality, but smokes cigarettes and engages in immoral sex.​

...and questions...

Is there any difference between these men? What's the difference, if any?​

Does God view them the same?​

Is the first man wicked, simply because he smokes cigars, and has immoral sex?​

Perhaps in a last effort, I would ask them...

Why did Jesus say what he did, at Matthew 12:41-42​

41 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here. 42 The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.​

​

What do you think? Does it relate to this topic?​

If after that, the student still holds their view, I would have to move on to something else, and hope they come to an understanding at a later time.

John 5: 28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

John states it very clearly, the wicked rise to condemnation (which does not suggest a second chance).

If you see judgment as a swift raising one up, and telling them they are doomed, for x, y, z, only to pitch them into the lake of fire, which is what many believe, I would like to ask a few questions.

• What will they be raised as... a) an immortal spirit; b) an immortal soul; c) an undead dead? d) a human, or e) something else... Please specify?
• If the physical heavens and earth is incinerated, where will they be resurrected... a) to heaven, where God dwells; b) an empty void; c) you don't know, and no scripture helps; d) Other... Please specify?

I never even suggested such an idea???

You must have misread what I said.
Yes. You did. I do find it interesting though, since it shows how different people are, and how differently our brains work.

In answer to your question , I said

There is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and unrighteous. Acts 24:15; John 5:28, 29
No resurrection of the wicked.

I'm actually telling you, there will not be a resurrection of the wicked, since the scriptures do not mention them.
I'm not saying anything that you said.

That is not what is being said in Jonah 4, since God does not call them “unrighteous!” in Jonah 4: 11 And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left—and also many animals?”

I would call those 120,000 people, “innocent”, never having a “first chance to accept God’s help.”

Are you certain that is the right description of the Ninevites?
Innocent :

1. Uncorrupted by evil, malice, or wrongdoing; sinless.
2. Not guilty of a specific crime or offense; legally blameless.
   "was innocent of all charges."
3. Within, allowed by, or sanctioned by the law; lawful.
4. Not dangerous or harmful; innocuous.

No. The Ninevites were far from blameless, lawful, or harmless. They cut off people's nose, and bore out their eyes.
Yes, and they skinned people alive. You can read all about them here - Nineveh and Those Nasty Assyrians.

The word you are probably looking for, is ignorant.
Ignorant :

1. Lacking education or knowledge.
2. Showing or arising from a lack of education or knowledge.
3. Unaware or uninformed.
4. Destitute of knowledge; uninstructed or uninformed; untaught; unenlightened
5. Unacquainted with; unconscious or unaware; -- used with of.
6. Unknown; undiscovered.
7. Resulting from ignorance; foolish; silly.
8. Unknowledgeable or uneducated; characterized by ignorance.

noun​

1. A person untaught or uninformed; one unlettered or unskilled; an ignoramous.

A person that does not know their right hand from their left, is therefore ignorant.
who cannot tell their right hand from their left

This phrase is often interpreted as a metaphor for spiritual ignorance or moral confusion. The Hebrew idiom suggests a lack of discernment or understanding, particularly in matters of right and wrong. God's concern for those who are spiritually lost is evident here, highlighting His desire to guide and enlighten. For Christians, this serves as a call to evangelism and discipleship, emphasizing the importance of sharing God's truth with those who are spiritually blind.​

An unrighteous person does what is wrong, not because they know right and wrong, in the matter, but because they haven't been taught right and wrong.
Hence, why Jesus said, they will be raised in the judgment, and condemn those who actually were taught, and had the knowledge of right and wrong.

never having a “first chance to accept God’s help

So, do they get a chance, in the resurrection?

 

[CoreyD]

Where does the Bible exclude the wicked from being “unrighteous” also?

The Bible does not include the wicked, in the resurrection... except in translations that ignore context and word usage which is 8 out of 43 translations on github (That's 18.6%).
The Bible, in referring specifically to the wicked, says, their hope dies with them. See posts above.
So, they have no hope.

Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

Yes. Every person can change.
When they fail to do so in the time God gives them, what does the Bible tell us, is the case?
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10; Matthew 25:46

For those that died before, are there in God's memorial?
Proverbs 10:7 - The memory of the righteous is a blessing, but the name of the wicked will rot.
No. There is no reason why God will remember those that know their left hand from their right - that is, they know the truth, but refuse to keep it.
If one knows what God requires of them, and deliberately refuses to do it... or even, if they had the chance to know, but refuses to, that is a serious sin, the Bible say, and punishable by eternal destruction. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

2 Peter 2:9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.

You are the one coming up with the idea: the unrighteous are treated differently than the wicked, as far as I can tell?

You must be using NIV.
It's interesting how they use the word "unrighteous" here, and not "wicked".
Nonetheless, it is the unrighteous that will be punished on judgment day, as Jesus said, at John 5:28, 29

I would say the inconsistency of the translations some persons prefer to use, cause them to not see what is being taught by the scriptures.
Well, that is, one factor, at least

I fully agree that “Judgement Day” is not talking about 24 hours, nor is it like a trial by jury, since what you did or did not do, while you lived on earth has already determined your outcome. It is more like the sentencing phase of the “trial”, which has also already been set by what you did on earth.

So raising one out of death, or according to some people - fiery torment in hell, to sentence them to another fiery torment?
Is that what you mean?
If not, please explain.

Looking at Rev. 5: 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll

and to open its seals,

because you were slain,

and with your blood you purchased for God

persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.

10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,

and they will reign on the earth.”

All of Rev. 5 is very figurative and poetic like: …The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth, so we need to read it as such.

Ah.. So, when it says something that you don't want to consider, just don't pay it any attention, but when it doesn't seem threatening, consider it?
You aren't being consistent.
You either refer to Revelation, and address its contents, or you don't.
You can't consider parts, when you feel to, and then ignore or dismiss it, when you don't feel to.

First. It says they will be kings and priests... not only in Revelation, but in Daniel 7:27; 1 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Timothy 2:12; 1 Peter 2:4-10
The scriptures harmonize, and this message runs from Genesis to Revelation, so to ignore the finale of it, would be a serious mistake to make... considering that this message is "the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass" Revelation 1:1, and a message of which it is said... "Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near." Revelation 1:3

Not to mention that it is to be understood.
Since the messenger says, “Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.” Revelation 22:7

Second. They rule the earth.
That may not sound too pleasant, to some, in light of the fact that during the 1,000 years, they rule this earth.
Yes. The earth is here to stay.

It is here before the 1,000 years; during the 1,000 years; after the 1,000 years.
So, that being problematic, is understandable.

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

We are now, that kingdom of priests.

How do you figure that?

Again, where does scripture talk about this “second chance” other than the way you interpret Rev. after Rev. 19?

That has been answered.
I'm assuming "second chance" means the chance persons never got in this life.

 

[bling]

The scriptural answer... if you are interested in that, was given to you, for the answer to the question "What is the objective (purpose) for creating humans and putting them on earth”.
Genesis 1:26-28
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

Acts 17:24-31
24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

Here is one more, that supports what Paul is saying.
Revelation 4:11
"Worthy are You, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will, they existed and were created."

What is the purpose and objective given in those verses, and why do you think, these verses have not answered that question?

You can take any command given to man in scripture and have Biblical support for calling it man’s “objective”, but are there two command given which are superior to all the other commands, and all the other commands are derived from?

What do we do to give and also do which does not give, glory and honor and power to God? (How about Love or not Love with all our being?)

Jesus said... and these words are direct...
John 17:3 - Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.
John 4:24, 25
23 But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him.
24 God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

According to Jesus, the requirement for gaining eternal life is to know God, and Jesus Christ.
Can one know God and Jesus Christ, if one does not know the truth about God, and Jesus Christ?
Can one worship God in spirit and truth, if one does not know the truth about God, and Jesus Christ?

You are obviously assuming, if you do not in this life get to “know the truth about God and Jesus Christ you will be given a “second chance”, but these verses do not say anything about a “second chance”.

I cannot find in direct scripture what happens to those who never have the opportunity to “know” the truth about God and Jesus in their life on earth. So we cannot jump to the idea of a “second chance”. There is some clue in John 4: 23… “a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth” There was a time when it appears the “true worshippers” did not worship in spirit and truth, but that does not mean they are not “true worshippers”.

Acts 17: 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’



29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Here we learn while people are here on earth God is not far from anyone (Literally: “He is at our elbow) and God “In the past God overlooked such ignorance”, so at least at some time God overlooked some ignorance , again judging the hearts of people, judging what they did know and what they did with what they did know.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

If it is God's will to give the unrighteous an opportunity to get to know him, and serve him, is knowing this, an aspect of knowledge about God and his son Jesus Christ, and is that important?

Again no explanation: 2 Thess. 1: 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

Nothing is said about “unrighteous”, but destruction comes to: “those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus” Which is a good description of the unrighteous.

There is nothing in these verses about a “second chance”. God judges the hearts of people, so if people are doing the best they can from what they do know, is their hearts wicked or unrighteous? They can be doing “right” by what they do know, like a “Good Samaritan”.

Paul did more than suggest it. Acts 24:15

Again, lots of unexplained verses:

Acts 24:15 and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

This supports my understanding of the wicked being resurrected and going to judgement. The unrighteous is not addressed here, so are they the same as the wicked?

Jesus stated it several times. John 5:28, 29; Matthew 10:15; Matthew 11:20-24; Matthew 12:41, 42; Luke 10:12-15; Luke 11:31, 32

Again, no explanation of these verses showing how they support a “second chance”.

As an example: John 5: 28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

There is no third group rising to live on earth and having a second chance. God knows from the hearts of the person who is good and bad.

John was given a Revelation of it. Revelation 20:11-15


Revelation is not poetic. It's symbolic. Just clarifying that.
Though symbolic, much of what it says relates to what we know about.

Be right back.

Again, nothing about a “second chance” even in Rev. 20: 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

The earth and heavens (not the dwelling place of God) fled and had no place.

 

[bling]

Is John writing before Pentecost 33 C.E., or after Pentecost 33 C.E.?

John is writing to the Churches of Asia Minor after Pentecost (there were no Churches before Pentecost). They are in the “Last Days” and about to go through severe persecution. The 1000 years is like the 1000 hills, so like the “hills” not being actually “hills” but the 1000 referring to completeness (all cows), the “years” in the 1000 years is not actual years, but the 1000 is referring to completeness (Victory).

Okay.

1. Was Eve deceived by Satan the Devil?
2. Is Satan the Devil the deceiver of his world 2 Corinthians 4:3, 4, and is Satan the Devil deceiving the world? Revelation 12:9?

You do not “sin”, because of satan (or the devil, same being) deceived you. You can never say: “the Devil made me do it”. Satan just exposes the problem the person has (which can be lacking the Holy Spirit) through deception, you can see this with Job. God wants us to see our problem as quickly as possible, so God leaves satan to wander the earth.

Us?
Did I ask you if Satan is deceiving those "having the indwelling Holy Spirit"?
Is that what you understood me to be asking, when I used the expressions, "the whole world", and "the nations"?

Satan does deceive both those with and without the Holy Spirit, but as long as the person with the Holy Spirit does not quench the Spirit, satan cannot get a foothold.

I was asking the question from the standpoint of your statement.
bling said:
This is the way I see the Devil operating, but even without the devil around we would sin (covet/lust at least), but the devil brings to light what is on our hearts, which can and should help us to seek help. We wind up doing what we really did not want to do (like Paul when he was Saul in Ro. 7), but there is a way out Romans 8.

What did you mean by "the devil brings to light what is on our hearts", and then linking that with Romans 7, where Paul refers to sin that dwells in him?
Were you not referring to sin in our heart?

Please explain, and then answer the question, because .whatever you meant, is what I am asking.
Did Adam and Eve have that?

God determines what is or is not “sin”, which can change with time, location, and the individual. For Adam and Eve prior to getting knowledge of “Good and Evil” there was only one way for them to sin, so their thoughts were not sin, even if we today, know them to be wrong. The Devil can tell what we are thinking and knows how to take those thoughts and expose them as outward rebellion. Adam’s thoughts were not the same as Eve’s thoughts, but Adams was “loving” Eve more than God at the time.

 

[bling]

I am not suggesting that what you have presented, is in serious error.
I am saying that what you have presented is in serious error... directly.
I don't think you are here arguing against me. and referring to what i say as nonsense, because you think I am speaking truth.
All of us on these forums pretty much tell everyone their belief is seriously flawed.
Are you denying this?

You quote or list verses without any explanation of how those verses support your conclusion, so I completely agree with those verses, just do not see them supporting your conclusion. I have to “assume” your interpretation of those verses, which I do not see as the most logical interpretation.

Would you see the error of: “human having a second chance after they die, yet there is no second chance”, as being a much greater error than teaching: “Repent now sinner, for there is no second chance after you die, yet there being a second chance they will automatically find out about”? Remember you have not pointed out in all the Bible teachings, other than after Rev.19, there being a second chance after death. What I preach is what all the others preached up until Rev. 20, and even after Rev. 19 there has to be an interpretation to suggest a second chance scenario?

That is not the same thing as saying you are a false prophet, or teacher.
We all know the rules here.
If someone out-rightly tells another, they are wrong, which I have been told, they have not accused the person of being a false teacher.
We do not disagree with someone we think are right. We disagree because we think they are wrong.


I think you need to go back through the thread, and find those places where I do not just quote these scriptures, but they actually follow my statements regarding why I quote them.
I don't post scriptures without explaining why they are there.

The only time I ever post a scripture without comments regarding the contents of scripture, is when I am answering a question, and the scripture directly answers it. I don't think I did that in this conversation.
In my entire conversation with you, I quote or reference scripture, to back up what I said.

What happens, as i mentioned, is rather than give thought to what i actually said, you gave your view of what the scripture means to you.

You, might “give thought” to my interpretation of the verses you quote and tell me why they are not logical alternatives.

If persons accept translations that use words loosely, they will get a wrong understanding of the text, and this is one of those cases.
The Greek word adikos is derived from the Greek prefix "α-" (a-), meaning "not," and "δίκη" (dikē), meaning "justice" or "righteousness.".

I'll stick with the word usage here,
Not doing what is right does not mean wicked. It means unjust - not just, or unrighteous - not righteous.
The Ninevites were not wicked, from God's standpoint, even though they did what was bad. They simply lived according to what they knew.

Jonah 1:2 “Go to the great city of Nineveh and preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before me.”

This is the NIV, but of the 61 different translations in Biblegateway we have only a few using instead of “wickedness”: evil and sins, with only the Wycliff Bible using “malic”. No one translates into the English God saying “their unrighteousness.

From Barne’s notes we have an excellent study of the word:

The "wickedness" is not the mere mass of human sin, of which it is said I John 5:19, "the whole world lieth in wickedness," but evil-doing toward others. This was the cause of the final sentence on Nineveh, with which Nahum closes his prophecy, "upon whom hath not thy wickedness passed continually?" It bad been assigned as the ground of the judgment on Israel through Nineveh Hosea 10:14-15. "So shall Bethel do unto you, on account of the wickedness of your wickedness." It was the ground of the destruction by the flood Genesis 6:5. "God saw that the wickedness of man was great upon the earth." God represents Himself, the Great Judge, as sitting on His Throne in heaven, Unseen but All-seeing, to whom the wickedness and oppressiveness of man against man "goes up," appealing for His sentence against the oppressor. The cause seems ofttimes long in pleading. God is long-suffering with the oppressor too, that if so be, he may repent. So would a greater good come to the oppressed also, if the wolf became a lamb. But meanwhile, " every iniquity has its own voice at the hidden judgment seat of God." Mercy itself calls for vengeance on the unmerciful.

The Hebrew word is: Original Word: רַע

Transliteration: ra`

Definition: Evil, bad, wicked, harmful, unpleasant

Meaning: bad, evil



Word Origin: Derived from the root רָעַע (ra'a), meaning "to be bad" or "to be evil."

In the context of Jonah, God is extremely upset with Ninevah and is talking about totally destroying, so that is not just a city not doing the right thing out of ignorance.

Where is “ra” ever translated as unrighteous?

Δίκη is of Persian origin, which I cannot find translated righteous?

A person may grow up in an environment of vice, where drugs, alcohol, and immoral sex, is practiced. Because such a person practices these thing, that does not make them wicked.
They are not righteous of course, because they do not know what is right, and practice it. That makes them unrighteous.

There is a marked difference between an unrighteous person, and a wicked person, and shown in the scriptures. Jonah 4:11

Again, you do not explain the verse which has nothing about unrighteous people.

Please read: Jonah 4:11 And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left—and also many animals?”

God’s huge “concern” is for “ a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left”. Are these 120,000+ unrighteous and/or wicked people, all the people in this huge city of Nineveh (three days to cross) or are they babies, little children and the mentally handicapped who are not even smart enough to know their right hand from their left hand? These people are neither unrighteous or wicked, but are innocent. To destroy Nineveh will also result in the destroying of 120,000+ innocent, at that time, people.

Scriptures such as Proverbs 11:7, specifies the wicked, and says... When the wicked man dies, his hope perishes, and the hope of his strength vanishes.

OK, but that verse does not make any destination between wicked and unrighteous, since unrighteous is not being addressed. To support your conclusion it needs to add, “but the unrighteous will be given a second chance.”

That contradict the idea of the wicked receiving a resurrection, and goes contrary to Hebrews 10:26.

No it does not, what goes to judgement unless it rises from the grave as something?

There isn't anything else, I would be able to show a person that believes the wicked will be resurrected, if they think Paul said the "righteous and the wicked".
What I would do, in the case with someone I am studying the Bible with, who hold that view, is ask if an unrighteous person is the same as a wicked person, and if they say yes, I would ask if being unrighteous necessarily means wicked.

I do not believe in the unmerciful “doctrine” of “original sin”. I do believe all mature adults will sin, because of the Law written on their hearts (now having the knowledge of good and evil). The immature doing unrighteous actions are totally not sinning and are thus not needing salvation, but are in a “safe condition” (like a newborn baby).

The unrighteous have to know righteousness or they are not unrighteous.

If they do believe that, and I showing the difference, along with the use of scriptures:

A righteous person is one that knows what is right, and does it. Matthew 7:24, 25​

An unrighteous person is one that does not know what is right, and therefore, does not do it. Jonah 4:11​

A wicked person is one that knows what is right, and does not do it. Matthew 7:26, 27; Luke 19:22, 23; John 9:41; John 15:22; James 4:17;​

...and using examples:

A man smokes cigarettes, and has immoral sex, but has not learned about Christ.​

A man has learned about Christ, and has been taught scriptures about God's view on immorality, but smokes cigarettes and engages in immoral sex.​

The question is: “What is on their heart”. Do they have and know the “Law written on their heart” since their heart is what is judged?

...and questions...

Is there any difference between these men? What's the difference, if any?​

Does God view them the same?​

Is the first man wicked, simply because he smokes cigars, and has immoral sex?​

Perhaps in a last effort, I would ask them...

Why did Jesus say what he did, at Matthew 12:41-42​

41 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here. 42 The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.​

​

What do you think? Does it relate to this topic?​

If after that, the student still holds their view, I would have to move on to something else, and hope they come to an understanding at a later time.


If you see judgment as a swift raising one up, and telling them they are doomed, for x, y, z, only to pitch them into the lake of fire, which is what many believe, I would like to ask a few questions.

• What will they be raised as... a) an immortal spirit; b) an immortal soul; c) an undead dead? d) a human, or e) something else... Please specify?

There is no distinction between what is being raise to eternal life and what is raise to be punished and finally be annihilated in the firer. Both being have to be able to exist in the heavenly realm.

• If the physical heavens and earth is incinerated, where will they be resurrected... a) to heaven, where God dwells; b) an empty void; c) you don't know, and no scripture helps; d) Other... Please specify?

The “physical heavens” include the sky around the earth and the stary sky, but not God’s heavenly dwelling place. What rises is something “like the angels” that can dwell where God dwells and can also be destroyed like the angels who rebelled against God.

You must have misread what I said.
Yes. You did. I do find it interesting though, since it shows how different people are, and how differently our brains work.

In answer to your question , I said

I'm actually telling you, there will not be a resurrection of the wicked, since the scriptures do not mention them.
I'm not saying anything that you said.

What kind of being are the wicked after they die or are they just annihilated?

What kind of being are the third of the angels after they rebelled against God and why would wicked people who die not be the same as the angels who rebelled?

Ecclesiastes 3:17 I said to myself, “God will bring into judgment both the righteous and the wicked, for there will be a time for every activity, a time to judge every deed.”

What does the previous wicked person look like at judgment?

Are you certain that is the right description of the Ninevites?
Innocent :

1. Uncorrupted by evil, malice, or wrongdoing; sinless.
2. Not guilty of a specific crime or offense; legally blameless.
   "was innocent of all charges."
3. Within, allowed by, or sanctioned by the law; lawful.
4. Not dangerous or harmful; innocuous.

No. The Ninevites were far from blameless, lawful, or harmless. They cut off people's nose, and bore out their eyes.
Yes, and they skinned people alive. You can read all about them here - Nineveh and Those Nasty Assyrians.

The word you are probably looking for, is ignorant.
Ignorant :

1. Lacking education or knowledge.
2. Showing or arising from a lack of education or knowledge.
3. Unaware or uninformed.
4. Destitute of knowledge; uninstructed or uninformed; untaught; unenlightened
5. Unacquainted with; unconscious or unaware; -- used with of.
6. Unknown; undiscovered.
7. Resulting from ignorance; foolish; silly.
8. Unknowledgeable or uneducated; characterized by ignorance.

noun​

1. A person untaught or uninformed; one unlettered or unskilled; an ignoramous.

A person that does not know their right hand from their left, is therefore ignorant.
who cannot tell their right hand from their left

This phrase is often interpreted as a metaphor for spiritual ignorance or moral confusion. The Hebrew idiom suggests a lack of discernment or understanding, particularly in matters of right and wrong. God's concern for those who are spiritually lost is evident here, highlighting His desire to guide and enlighten. For Christians, this serves as a call to evangelism and discipleship, emphasizing the importance of sharing God's truth with those who are spiritually blind.​

An unrighteous person does what is wrong, not because they know right and wrong, in the matter, but because they haven't been taught right and wrong.
Hence, why Jesus said, they will be raised in the judgment, and condemn those who actually were taught, and had the knowledge of right and wrong.

A new born baby does not know his right hand from his left hand, they are very innocent.

The 120,000+ is not all those in the huge city of Nineveh, which would mostly have people who know the difference between their right and left hand.

These 120,000+ mostly little children are not doing the wickedness you describe, so they are innocent.

Mature adults have a Law written on their hearts which God would provide them with understanding and can obey or disobey that “Law”, there would be no reason to have a Law on a person’s heart if they could never understand it. People (like small children) do not understand the Law on their hearts, so yes, they are ignorant of that Law, but that also makes them innocent.

So, do they get a chance, in the resurrection?

No.

The big problem which takes me a book to explain is man’s objective here on earth can only be fulfilled with the way the earth is right now.

The Bible does not address those who never had the opportunity to obey, a new born baby as an example can die innocent, without ever being able to fulfill the human’s earthly objective.

From my knowledge of God and His Love, I would see these innocents, going to heaven and needing to be protected and preserved for eternity. Some will be people I could have personally reached on earth, if I just used my time more wisely. My joy is in serving others while on earth, so I hope to continue that joy in heaven, so maybe I get the preserve and protect those I missed while on earth for eternity, but it could be a big crowd.

 

[bling]

The Bible does not include the wicked, in the resurrection... except in translations that ignore context and word usage which is 8 out of 43 translations on github (That's 18.6%).
The Bible, in referring specifically to the wicked, says, their hope dies with them. See posts above.
So, they have no hope.

Just because they "have no hope", they can still stand in some kind of Spiritual body and ask questions at the Judgment (when did I not do this?).

“Judgement” is not referring to some jury trial where all your actions are weighted out on a scale to see which way the scale tilts, nor are the judges making some decision about the person. Judgement is the time and place you are sentenced or rewarded.

Matt. 25: 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ 40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ 44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ 45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ 46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Hebrews 9:27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

Hebrews 10:27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

2 Peter 2:9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment

2 Peter 3:7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

Yes. Every person can change.
When they fail to do so in the time God gives them, what does the Bible tell us, is the case?
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10; Matthew 25:46

Again just the location of verses:

2 Thess. 1: 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

The “relief” come at death or at the Judgement Day for the Christians. Those causers of the troubles for Christians, do not know God and obey, will be punished.

Thess. Is not addressing babies, small children and mentally handicapped (the innocent ) as being troublers for Christians.

For those that died before, are there in God's memorial?
Proverbs 10:7 - The memory of the righteous is a blessing, but the name of the wicked will rot.
No. There is no reason why God will remember those that know their left hand from their right - that is, they know the truth, but refuse to keep it.
If one knows what God requires of them, and deliberately refuses to do it... or even, if they had the chance to know, but refuses to, that is a serious sin, the Bible say, and punishable by eternal destruction. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10


You must be using NIV.
It's interesting how they use the word "unrighteous" here, and not "wicked".
Nonetheless, it is the unrighteous that will be punished on judgment day, as Jesus said, at John 5:28, 29

I would say the inconsistency of the translations some persons prefer to use, cause them to not see what is being taught by the scriptures.
Well, that is, one factor, at least

“Wicked and evil” are used about 8 times out of the 61 different translations available on Biblegateway, the rest are mostly unrighteous or unjust.

John 5: 28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

So raising one out of death, or according to some people - fiery torment in hell, to sentence them to another fiery torment?
Is that what you mean?
If not, please explain.

Bad angels and bad dead people are in a bad place now, but after judgement will experience the second death, burning up completely.

Ah.. So, when it says something that you don't want to consider, just don't pay it any attention, but when it doesn't seem threatening, consider it?
You aren't being consistent.
You either refer to Revelation, and address its contents, or you don't.
You can't consider parts, when you feel to, and then ignore or dismiss it, when you don't feel to.

First. It says they will be kings and priests... not only in Revelation, but in Daniel 7:27; 1 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Timothy 2:12; 1 Peter 2:4-10
The scriptures harmonize, and this message runs from Genesis to Revelation, so to ignore the finale of it, would be a serious mistake to make... considering that this message is "the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass" Revelation 1:1, and a message of which it is said... "Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near." Revelation 1:3

Not to mention that it is to be understood.
Since the messenger says, “Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.” Revelation 22:7

Second. They rule the earth.
That may not sound too pleasant, to some, in light of the fact that during the 1,000 years, they rule this earth.
Yes. The earth is here to stay.

It is here before the 1,000 years; during the 1,000 years; after the 1,000 years.
So, that being problematic, is understandable.

We are right now, a Kingdom of Priests. We are 24/7 worshipping God/Christ.

How do you figure that?

Peter said it : 2 Peter 2: 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house[a] to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. … 9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

We are Priests offering up a daily sacrifice (ourselves), on our altar (the cross we carry), in the temple not made with hands (our body), and in worship 24/7 (living like Christ offering obedience to God’s commands in serving others in all that we do [Spirit and truth]).

That has been answered.
I'm assuming "second chance" means the chance persons never got in this life.

No! There is no talk of a second chance outside your interpretation of verses after Rev. 19.

 

[CoreyD]

You can take any command given to man in scripture and have Biblical support for calling it man’s “objective”, but are there two command given which are superior to all the other commands, and all the other commands are derived from?

What do we do to give and also do which does not give, glory and honor and power to God? (How about Love or not Love with all our being?)

You are obviously assuming, if you do not in this life get to “know the truth about God and Jesus Christ you will be given a “second chance”, but these verses do not say anything about a “second chance”.

I cannot find in direct scripture what happens to those who never have the opportunity to “know” the truth about God and Jesus in their life on earth. So we cannot jump to the idea of a “second chance”. There is some clue in John 4: 23… “a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth” There was a time when it appears the “true worshippers” did not worship in spirit and truth, but that does not mean they are not “true worshippers”.

Acts 17: 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’



29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Here we learn while people are here on earth God is not far from anyone (Literally: “He is at our elbow) and God “In the past God overlooked such ignorance”, so at least at some time God overlooked some ignorance , again judging the hearts of people, judging what they did know and what they did with what they did know.

Again no explanation: 2 Thess. 1: 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

Nothing is said about “unrighteous”, but destruction comes to: “those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus” Which is a good description of the unrighteous.

There is nothing in these verses about a “second chance”. God judges the hearts of people, so if people are doing the best they can from what they do know, is their hearts wicked or unrighteous? They can be doing “right” by what they do know, like a “Good Samaritan”.

Again, lots of unexplained verses:

Acts 24:15 and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

This supports my understanding of the wicked being resurrected and going to judgement. The unrighteous is not addressed here, so are they the same as the wicked?

Again, no explanation of these verses showing how they support a “second chance”.

As an example: John 5: 28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

There is no third group rising to live on earth and having a second chance. God knows from the hearts of the person who is good and bad.

Again, nothing about a “second chance” even in Rev. 20: 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

The earth and heavens (not the dwelling place of God) fled and had no place.

John 5:28, 29; Matthew 10:15; Matthew 11:20-24; Matthew 12:41, 42; Luke 10:12-15; Luke 11:31, 32
Question: From the scriptures referenced above, according to Jesus, who will be raised in the judgment?

You said you would answer my question regarding Satan deceiving the world.
I thank you for answering.
You said,

• I see satan being limited, but since he has a purpose, he still does deceive individuals.
• Satan does deceive both those with and without the Holy Spirit

So, since Satan is deceiving persons, then the scripture is not yet fulfilled, where Satan is bound, so that he does not deceive the nations any longer, until the 1,000 years are ended.
Thus, the 1,000 year rule of Christ, has not begun, according to the scriptures.

 

[bling]

John 5:28, 29; Matthew 10:15; Matthew 11:20-24; Matthew 12:41, 42; Luke 10:12-15; Luke 11:31, 32
Question: From the scriptures referenced above, according to Jesus, who will be raised in the judgment?

John 5: 28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Acts 24:15 and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Obvious it is all.

Matt. 10: 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

There is nothing in that verse to even suggest that the people of that town do not go in some form to the judgment.

Yes! there are degrees of punishment.

Matt. 11: 20 Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades.[e] For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”

Yes, again there are degrees of punishment!

God judges individual hearts (motives). With no mention of a second chance.

Same thing with Matthew 12:41, 42; Luke 10:12-15; Luke 11:31, 32.

You said you would answer my question regarding Satan deceiving the world.
I thank you for answering.
You said,

• I see satan being limited, but since he has a purpose, he still does deceive individuals.
• Satan does deceive both those with and without the Holy Spirit

So, since Satan is deceiving persons, then the scripture is not yet fulfilled, where Satan is bound, so that he does not deceive the nations any longer, until the 1,000 years are ended.
Thus, the 1,000 year rule of Christ, has not begun, according to the scriptures.

Rev. 20 talks only about deceiving “Nations” which may be limited for a while to individuals.

 

[CoreyD]

John 5: 28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Acts 24:15 and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Obvious it is all.

Matt. 10: 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

There is nothing in that verse to even suggest that the people of that town do not go in some form to the judgment.

Yes! there are degrees of punishment.

Matt. 11: 20 Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades.[e] For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”

Yes, again there are degrees of punishment!

God judges individual hearts (motives). With no mention of a second chance.

Same thing with Matthew 12:41, 42; Luke 10:12-15; Luke 11:31, 32.

Did you say who will be raised up?
I'm not seeing an answer to that, here.
Can you clarify please.

How will they condemn the generation Jesus spoke to? Matthew 12:41, 42

Rev. 20 talks only about deceiving “Nations” which may be limited for a while to individuals.

I don't understand what you are trying to say here.
Are you trying to deny that Satan is deceiving people?

What are you trying to say?

 

[bling]

Did you say who will be raised up?
I'm not seeing an answer to that, here.
Can you clarify please.

“good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.”

“there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.”

How will they condemn the generation Jesus spoke to? Matthew 12:41, 42

By their words and actions.

I don't understand what you are trying to say here.
Are you trying to deny that Satan is deceiving people?

No.

What are you trying to say?

Individuals are deceived even today, but nations (large groups of people) are not deceived as a large group.