And because it is the "majority" opinion that makes it truth?
Sorry, but the majority is in conflict with Scripture, and it is Scripture that we must abide by.
It is not only the majority opinion, but the opinion of all saints, Church Doctors, Popes and Patriarchs for 2000 years.
So again I ask, why is there a forum for "discussing and debating the various theological doctrines concerning Mary and the Saints" when Mary was just a normal human girl with nothing special about her (no special "holiness" or grace), and the "saints" are the manufacture of man (see my OP)? This is a complete waste of a sub-forum, because it is neither Biblical nor Spiritual.
This is such a silly question. This is a platform to congregate with those of the faith, not an echo-chamber. And no, Mary was quasi-incarnate of God; St. Maximilian Kolbe suggested that Mary’s union with the Holy Spirit was so close that it is
as if the Holy Ghost operated through Her in a way akin to the Incarnation of Christ, though without conflating Mary with the divine nature. For example, he wrote: “The Holy Spirit acts
only through the Immaculata, His
Spouse. Hence, she is the Mediatrix of all graces of the Holy Spirit.”
She is the daughter of the Father, the mother of the Son, and the spouse of the Holy Spirit, particularly with the Holy Spirit working through her in a unique and unparalleled way. However, even he did not teach that Mary becomes part of the Trinity in a literal sense, but did affirm that Mary, by grace, reflects the holiness of the Trinity and serves as its most perfect human representation. She participates in the life of the Trinity, and thus is intertwined with the Trinity, but does not share the divine essence of the Trinity, and Her sanctity and exaltation come entirely from God’s grace, not from an intrinsic divinity or transformation into a divine being.
She is intimately united with God and intertwined with the Trinity; Yet, despite this intimacy, She remains a person. She is almost united with the Trinity in working to dispense the graces of salvation, but is not, as stated earlier, sharing of the divine essence of the Trinity. Even though Mary is glorified, She retains Her status as a human being. She does not become a divine being, but She does experience the fullness of human perfection [which puts Her second only to God] through Her intimate union with God.
The distinction between the Creator (God) and the creature (Mary) is important, but that is not to say that Mary acts in the midst of the persons of the Trinity to dispense the graces of salvation, and thus is intimately united with God and intertwined with the Trinity. I would irk at saying She is “
quasi-incarnate,” but if ‘quasi’ is defined as “Having a likeness to something; resembling,” then yes, She is resembling of God, but is NOT God. So, if provided with more context, this graphic is semi-accurate.
If Mary was implicated in a trinitarian graph, She would [as I see it] be intertwined in the connecting lines, like a snake on the Rod of Asclepius. I side more with a hyperdulian devotional pattern, what I consider ‘Hyperdulian Maximalism.’ Ergo, Mary can be considered
quasi-incarnate, or intertwined within the Trinity, and can be worshipped [but not as God is worshipped]. I argue this: the word translated as “worship” is shachah and literally denotes the act of bowing down. The Greek word proskuneō, rendered as “worship,” means “to encounter God and praise Him.” However just as the Ark was central to religious rituals and ceremonies, but it was not to be worshipped as an idol, just as Mary is given ceremonies and rituals. Note that
2 Samuel 6:12-15 explicitly states that during the transport of the Ark to Jerusalem, King David and the people showed their reverence through celebratory acts: “And it was told King David, that the Lord had blessed Obededom, and all that he had, because of the ark of God. So David went, and brought away the ark of God out of the house of Obededom into the city of David with joy. And there were with David seven choirs, and calves for victims.”
Furthermore, we note that just as Moses bows down to his father-in-law, Jethro, as an act of respect and honor (
Exodus 18:7), we kneel before statues or Icons of the Blessed Virgin. And for those that still claim this is idolatry, noting
Isaiah 2:8’s declaration that:
“Their land also is full of idols: they have adored the work of their own hands, which their own fingers have made.” Are you to say that this declaration constitutes the reality that the reverence given to the ark, a “work of their own hands, which their own fingers have made”, is an error? This validating the entire Old Testament? Note that Moses instructed Bezalel, God’s anointed craftsman, to build the ark of the covenant (see
Exodus 37:1–9;
25:10–22). The “sacred chest” was to be a rectangular wooden box made from acacia wood, overlaid “inside and out with pure gold,” measuring approximately “45 inches long, 27 inches wide, and 27 inches high” (
Exodus 37:1–2). The chest was fitted with two pairs of gold rings on either side in which permanent poles were inserted for transporting the ark.
No one was allowed to touch the ark out of reverence for God’s holiness. The poles were also fashioned with acacia wood and overlaid with gold. We also note that the real significance of the ark of the covenant involved the
things that were inside the Ark. The ark of the covenant was built to contain the two tablets of the law given to Moses by God (
Exodus 25:16,
21). These tablets were also known as “the testimony,” and thus, the ark was also called “the ark of the testimony” (see
Numbers 4:5,
Joshua 4:16). In the original Hebrew, the word translated as “testimony” refers both to the terms of God’s covenant with Israel as written on the tablets of stone and to the covenant itself. However, the Israelites gave the Ark great reverence for not only what was inside of it, but what was exhibiting the “testimony”.
God loved his people and wanted to be close to them. He chose to do so in a very special way. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says, “The prayer of the people of God flourished in the shadow of the dwelling place of God’s presence on earth, the ark of the covenant and the temple, under the guidance of their shepherds, especially King David, and of the prophets” (CCC 2594). God instructed Moses to build a tabernacle surrounded by heavy curtains (cf. Ex 25-27). Within the tabernacle he was to place an ark made of acacia wood covered with gold inside and out. Within the Ark of the Covenant was placed a golden jar holding the manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant (cf.
Heb 9:4). When the ark was completed, the glory cloud of the Lord (the Shekinah Glory) covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle (
Ex 40:34-35;
Nm 9:18,
22). The verb for “to cover” or “to overshadow” and the metaphor of a cloud are used in the Bible to represent the presence and glory of God.
The Catechism explains: “In the theophanies of the Old Testament, the cloud, now obscure, now luminous, reveals the living and saving God, while veiling the transcendence of his glory—with Moses on Mount Sinai, at the tent of meeting, and during the wandering in the desert, and with Solomon at the dedication of the temple. In the Holy Spirit, Christ fulfills these figures. The Spirit comes upon the Virgin Mary and “overshadows” her, so that she might conceive and give birth to Jesus. On the mountain of Transfiguration, the Spirit in the “cloud came and overshadowed” Jesus, Moses and Elijah, Peter, James and John, and “a voice came out of the cloud, saying, ‘This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!’” Finally, the cloud took Jesus out of the sight of the disciples on the day of his Ascension and will reveal him as Son of Man in glory on the day of his final coming. The glory of the Lord “overshadowed” the ark and filled the tabernacle.” (CCC 697)
It’s easy to miss the parallel between the Holy Spirit overshadowing the ark and the Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary, between the Ark of the Old Covenant as the dwelling place of God and Mary as the new dwelling place of God. I ask again, just because the real significance of the ark of the covenant involved the things that were inside the Ark, yet King David and the people showed their reverence through celebratory acts to it, does that mean they are in error? Obviously not. And if Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant, are we in error for “worshipping” (prostrating), even though Moses bowed down to his father-in-law, Jethro, as an act of respect and honor (
Exodus 18:7)? It shows that just as they did rituals and celebrations to the Ark, and as Moses prostrated before his father-in-law, we kneel before statues or Icons of the Blessed Virgin when we show Her reverence through ritual, devotion, celebrations and the Rosary, that gives Her power to trample the Devil.
To say that Mary is not “very close to the Heart of God” is contradicting Our Lady’s own words: “My son and I redeemed the world
as with one heart.” (Blessed Virgin to St. Brigid of Sweden) Our Lady’s heart is so profoundly tied to the Trinity that She redeemed the world with Christ as if they were one and the same; this thus gives Her a greater placement than that of being “close,” instead, being intertwined in the Trinity itself, and Kolbe did suggest that Mary’s union with the Holy Spirit was so close that it is
as if the Holy Ghost operated through Her in a way akin to the Incarnation of Christ [as I stated in my previous message]. She can be considered “
quasi-incarnate,” if ‘quasi’ is defined as “having a likeness to something; resembling,” as She is resembling of God, but is NOT God.
But because She is resembling of God, and in continuing the practice of revering the Ark of the Old Testament with prostrations and celebrations, we “worship” (but not as far as to consider it
latria) Our Lady, who is given dominion over mankind, and is the cause of salvation: “To save the souls of poor sinners,
God wishes to establish the devotion to my Immaculate Heart throughout the world” (Our Lady of Fatima). She is also given the power to “move” the persons: “Pray my children. God will answer before long.
My Son lets Himself be moved” (Our Lady of Pontmain), meaning, praying the Rosary [which gives Our Lady power to tample the Devil], moves the Son, indicating an intertwining to allow prayers to Our Lady to move God.
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