Woman who preaches in Church

[Rose_bud]

I'll just get back to working on this week's sermon. On Luke 3:15-22, if you're curious.

Exactly, continue the good work, God has called you to, inspite of the feelings of those in opposition . Our ultimate accountability is to God, feed His sheep. Pointing them to the Great Shepherd.

 

[Truth7t7]

As I've already mentioned; Paul commended Phoebe, a deacon, and Junia, an apostle. He worked with Priscilla, who taught, and commended women like Lydia, who presided over worship gatherings in their homes. He mentions many women as his co-labourers, the same term he used for men in various ministry roles. (Eg: see here: Partnering Together: Paul's Female Coworkers - Marg Mowczko ).

Not at all. And I suggest you not turn arguing the point into personal attack, as that is likely to fall foul of CF's flaming rules.

God's words are very clear regarding a woman's role inside the Church, no mystery below whatsoever

1 Timothy 2:12-14KJV
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

1 Timothy 3:1-13KJV
1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

 

[Rose_bud]

God's words are very clear regarding a woman's role inside the Church, no mystery below whatsoever

1 Timothy 2:12-14KJV
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1 Corinthians 14:33-35KJV
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

1 Timothy 3:1-13KJV
1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Hi Truth7t7

I'm sure Paidiske will respond to your post.

I don't usually respond in this manner. But I thought I would see if I could use your approach of using Scripture to make a point, devoid of it context. Very clear passages, no mystery whatsoever.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11
Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

1 Corinthians 11:11-12
Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God.

Acts 2:17-18
In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.

Romans 16:1-2
I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae. I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me.

 

[Truth7t7]

Hi Truth7t7

I'm sure Paidiske will respond to your post.

I don't usually respond in this manner. But I thought I would see if I could use your approach of using Scripture to make a point, devoid of it context. Very clear passages, no mystery whatsoever.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11
Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

1 Corinthians 11:11-12
Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God.

Acts 2:17-18
In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.

Romans 16:1-2
I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae. I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any h

elp she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me.

Appreciate your response but not one word provided has to do with "Church Order"

Bishops and Deacons are to be married men, and women are to keep silent in the Church, it's that simple and it's not changing anytime soon

P.S. Phebe was a "Servant" as the KJV translates not a "Deacon", Phoebe was a woman and God's words aren't contradictory, Deacons are to be married men who are figures of authority in the Church

Romans 16:1KJV
I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

1 Timothy 3:12KJV
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Truth7t7]

Hi Truth7t7

I'm sure Paidiske will respond to your post.

I don't usually respond in this manner. But I thought I would see if I could use your approach of using Scripture to make a point, devoid of it context. Very clear passages, no mystery whatsoever.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11
Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

1 Corinthians 11:11-12
Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God.

Acts 2:17-18
In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.

Romans 16:1-2
I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae. I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any h

elp she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me.

Appreciate your response but not one word provided has to do with "Church Order"

Bishops and Deacons are to be married men, and women are to keep silent in the Church, it's that simple and it's not changing anytime soon

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[RamiC]

This is something that plagues the Church throughout the history. Christian killing Jews because they felt that's what God commanded. Christians siding with Hitler. Christians murdering. Christians marrying non Christians because they felt God called them to do that so through the marriage the unbeliever will surely come to Christ etc. There are so many evil things Christians done to others because they felt God called them to do it, it will make you question Christianity.

With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Ephesians 4:2

The Gospel is true, please do not lose your faith over what others do.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Romans 16:1-2
I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae. I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me.

Phoebe was not a deacon. The Greek word Paul uses in this text is the word diakonos, which means servant. The Greek word here is neuter and was used in the church as a general term for servant before the offices of deacon and deaconess were developed. It is used of the household servants who drew the water that Jesus turned into wine (John 2:5, 9), and Paul has used the term earlier in this letter (Rom. 13:4, twice) to refer to secular government as “a minister of God to you for good” and even of Christ as “a servant to the circumcision,” that is, to Jews (15:8). When diakonos obviously refers to a church office, it is usually transliterated as “deacon” (see, e.g., Phil.1:1; 1 Tim. 3:10, 13)..

During the first few centuries of the church, the role of a woman servant diakonos was to care for fellow believers who were sick, for the poor, for strangers passing through, and for the imprisoned. They also were responsible for helping baptize and disciple new women converts and to instruct children and other women.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

I'm sorry, but this is not an argument for female pastors. Men and women have the same value, but not the same responsibilities.

In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.

Prophesy yes, having authority over men no. I already explain this in my previous post.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

The Gospel is true, please do not lose your faith over what others do.

I am not. I am just showing why it can be dangerous when we feel like it is God calling us to do something, while He is not. We must always examine the calls of God with the Scripture to see if it's indeed from God, because God will not contradict Himself.

We Christians are not better than others, the only difference is, is God's grace, and God's grace alone.

 

[Paidiske]

I'm sure Paidiske will respond to your post.

I wasn't going to. Posting a wall of cherry-picked proof texts which have already been addressed in the thread is just disrespectful of the people participating in good faith.

P.S. Phoebe was a "Servant" not a "Deacon" diakonos

The word is deacon, the very same word used elsewhere for deacons. At the very least you ought to admit that you are deciding what it means (or does not mean) here, because Phoebe is clearly described as a "deacon of the church."

Given that deacons were established in the church before the martyrdom of Stephen (who was a deacon), it doesn't line up to argue that Phoebe was described in this way by Paul before the office of deacon developed.

As an aside, I'm always amazed at people who seem to think that people claim a calling to ministry on some unexamined whim. Generally it is something carefully, prayerfully, and corporately discerned over many years.

 

[Truth7t7]

I wasn't going to. Posting a wall of cherry-picked proof texts which have already been addressed in the thread is just disrespectful of the people participating in good faith.

The word is deacon, the very same word used elsewhere for deacons. At the very least you ought to admit that you are deciding what it means (or does not mean) here, because Phoebe is clearly described as a "deacon of the church."

View attachment 359510

Given that deacons were established in the church before the martyrdom of Stephen (who was a deacon), it doesn't line up to argue that Phoebe was described in this way by Paul before the office of deacon developed.

As an aside, I'm always amazed at people who seem to think that people claim a calling to ministry on some unexamined whim. Generally it is something carefully, prayerfully, and corporately discerned over many years.

Phebe was a "Servant" as the KJV translates not a "Deacon", Phoebe was a woman and God's words aren't contradictory, Deacons are to be married men who are figures of authority in the Church

Romans 16:1KJV
1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

Merriam-Webster

succor​

suc·cor ˈsə-kər
1: relief also : aid, help 2 : something that furnishes relief

1 Timothy 3:12KJV
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Paidiske]

Phebe was a "Servant" as the KJV translates not a "Deacon",

That's an interpretive decision on the part of the translators. As I showed you, the word in the text is exactly the same one elsewhere translated as deacon.

Phoebe was a woman and God's words aren't contradictory, Deacons are to be married men who are figures of authority in the Church

Or... Phoebe was a woman, and a deacon, and deacons - when married - are to be monogamous and faithful. I mean, 1 Timothy 3:11 explicitly sets out that the expectations of women deacons are no less serious than those for the men! (Noting that it is, again, an interpretive decision that this verse is sometimes translated as referring to "wives").

 

[Rose_bud]

Appreciate your response but not one word provided has to do with "Church Order"

Bishops and Deacons are to be married men, and women are to keep silent in the Church, it's that simple and it's not changing anytime soon

P.S. Phebe was a "Servant" as the KJV translates not a "Deacon", Phoebe was a woman and God's words aren't contradictory, Deacons are to be married men who are figures of authority in the Church

Romans 16:1KJV
I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

1 Timothy 3:12KJV
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

Jesus Is The Lord

Ah and you didn't get the point of the post. I'll clarify.

I simply illustrated your approach of using Scripture is entirely devoid of its context, which most posters here has been arguing.

You infact did not attempt to discover meaning of the text whatsoever. But posted Scripture, which I could do as well. Bolding the points I deemed relevant.

 

[RamiC]

Supposing him to be the gardener, she said to him, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away.” Jesus said to her, “Mary.” She turned and said to him in Aramaic, “Rabboni!” (which means Teacher). Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ ” John 20-15-18 ESV​

​

This is a record in Scripture, of Jesus Christ telling a woman, who is the first human being to see his resurrected self, to go and tell a bunch of men about it.​

​

Edited for clarity.​

​

​

 

[Rose_bud]

Phoebe was not a deacon. The Greek word Paul uses in this text is the word diakonos, which means servant. The Greek word here is neuter and was used in the church as a general term for servant before the offices of deacon and deaconess were developed. It is used of the household servants who drew the water that Jesus turned into wine (John 2:5, 9), and Paul has used the term earlier in this letter (Rom. 13:4, twice) to refer to secular government as “a minister of God to you for good” and even of Christ as “a servant to the circumcision,” that is, to Jews (15:8). When diakonos obviously refers to a church office, it is usually transliterated as “deacon” (see, e.g., Phil.1:1; 1 Tim. 3:10, 13)..

During the first few centuries of the church, the role of a woman servant diakonos was to care for fellow believers who were sick, for the poor, for strangers passing through, and for the imprisoned. They also were responsible for helping baptize and disciple new women converts and to instruct children and other women.


I'm sorry, but this is not an argument for female pastors. Men and women have the same value, but not the same responsibilities.


Prophesy yes, having authority over men no. I already explain this in my previous post.

Hi Ivan

See my response to Truth7t7, you apparently missed the irony of my post as well.

 

[Truth7t7]

That's an interpretive decision on the part of the translators. As I showed you, the word in the text is exactly the same one elsewhere translated as deacon.

Or... Phoebe was a woman, and a deacon, and deacons - when married - are to be monogamous and faithful. I mean, 1 Timothy 3:11 explicitly sets out that the expectations of women deacons are no less serious than those for the men! (Noting that it is, again, an interpretive decision that this verse is sometimes translated as referring to "wives").

Phebe was a (servant-helper) in the Church and the 2nd verse clarifies this fact as she was a (Succourer) of many including Paul, she didn't hold a position of leadership or authority (Deacon) in the Church as you suggest

Romans 16:1KJV
1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

Merriam-Webster

succor​

suc·cor ˈsə-kər
1: relief also : aid, help 2 : something that furnishes relief

1 Timothy 3:12KJV
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Truth7t7]

Ah and you didn't get the point of the post. I'll clarify.

I simply illustrated your approach of using Scripture is entirely devoid of its context, which most posters here has been arguing.

You infact did not attempt to discover meaning of the text whatsoever. But posted Scripture, which I could do as well. Bolding the points I deemed relevant.

Please respond to post # 195 above, smiles

 

[Paidiske]

Phebe was a (servant-helper) in the Church and the 2nd verse clarifies this fact as she was a (Succourer) of many,

It doesn't help your argument as much as you might think. The word you are seeing there translated as "succourer," is parastate. That's a form of the word prostasis, (literally, the "one who stands before,") which Justin Martyr uses to describe the person who presides over worship only a short time later.

What form of succour, benefaction, or the like, did Phoebe give? Very likely a form of church leadership as an expression of her diaconal ministry.

Romans 16:1KJV

There's no point quoting the KJV when I've already shown you that it is, at best, making translation choices which obscure the meaning of the underlying Greek.

1 Timothy 3:12KJV
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

The idiom just means that they're faithful to their spouse. The point is fidelity, not gender. It certainly is not to restrict the diaconate to married men.

Jesus is indeed Lord, for which I am profoundly grateful, because his Lordship is far more life-giving than the narrow restrictions humans would place on each other.

 

[Strong in Him]

He killed Ananias and Sapphira immediately after they sinned.

Maybe you'd like to quote the text and show me where it says that God killed them?
They died, yes. They probably had heart attacks and these could well have been brought on by the shock of hearing that they had lied to God. But the text does not say that God killed them, or even caused them to die - an important point if we are discussing what the Bible does, and does not, say.

They should serve as a lesson for the Church not to gloss over holiness of God.

Is there evidence that every Christian in the NT who disobeyed God was killed by him?

God will never call you to do something that would be contrary what He commands in the Scripture.

Exactly. And because God is calling women to preach, and to ordination, clearly there can be nothing in Scripture which forbids this.

The problem is that those who do not accept female preachers, or Ministers, do not accept this and their only answer is that the women are wrong - women are sinning/deluded/feminists or just doing what they want to do with no regard for God.

Just because one feels God calls them to do something, does not mean God really does.

Oh I know.
But if you are equating a call from God to a feeling, that suggests that you know little about the process by which the church tests a call.
If we are talking about ordination; in the UK Methodist church it could take 10 years from when someone says "I believe God may be calling me to do this", to their ordination. That applies to men and women.
First, they would have to become a lay preacher - which could take 5 years. There are no exceptions; no one is ordained unless they are first a commissioned preacher. Even if they already are a preacher, the ordination process involves writing a portfolio, being assessed, interviewed, appearing before two committees, going to college (if they are accepted by the committees), being a probationer in one, or more, churches for 2 years, being interviewed again and then, if everyone is satisfied, they will be ordained.
I doubt that a woman would go through all that one the strength of a feeling - or be allowed to. It doesn't say much for the male clergy who are involved, every step of the way, in discerning a call.

It is true that Deborah was chosen by God for special service to Him and that she stand as model of faith, courage, and, yes, leadership. However, the authority of women in the Old Testament is not relevant to the issue of pastors in the church.

But it does mean that God is not against having women in leadership - he does not go against his own will.

The New Testament Epistles present a new paradigm for God’s people—the church, the body of Christ—and that paradigm involves an authority structure unique to the church, not for the nation of Israel or any other Old Testament entity.

The New Testament tells us that women were allowed to pray alongside men, Acts 1:14, proclaim God's word to men, John 20:11-18, testify to me, John 4:29-30,39-41 and learn from men, Luke 10:39 (male students sat at the feet of their Rabbi; women were not allowed to learn).
In the church, Phoebe was a deacon and the church at Philippi had deaconesses, Junia was outstanding among the apostles and Priscilla was a teacher.
All this in a society where women had no rights, were the property of their fathers or husbands and where Pharisees, and maybe all men, daily thanked God that they had not been born female.
Jesus led the way in valuing and affirming women - and the church followed his example.

The fact that something happened, does not mean it's normative for the Church.

The fact that something has ALWAYS been done a certain way, does not mean that it is right or that God wants it to continue.

For example God allowing Israel men to have multiple wives, are you now going to argue that it's ok for Christian men to have multiple wives?

No - which is why Paul said that leaders should be the husband of ONE wife.

Isaiah chapter 3 for example, one of the signs that a culture is under judgement, is that women are in leadership.

But women weren't in leadership at that time - the country was ruled by a king.
The only way that the women could have been "in charge" was if the king had had many wives, or a harem, who came from other countries and were trying to persuade him to do what was best for their country - or maybe influencing him to worship their gods. Some commentators think this is exactly what was happening. So, effectively, the country was being ruled by women; the king's wives/mistresses.

So Deborah was actually assigned that things were very bad in Israel.

Deborah was a judge and judges were appointed by God. When Deborah was judge the country trusted in God and had peace for 40 years.
Compared with some of the male judges who did not honour God and the country turned away from God.

I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; end of discussion.

It's not the end of the discussion at all.
If you read this literally, it says "I do not permit" not "the Lord does command".
So Paul appears to be saying he does not allow A woman to teach; which woman, and why did he allow Priscilla?
Do you really think that male clergy have never read these verses? Do you believe they know the "truth" (assuming that the truth is that women cannot teach/lead) and have never been able to teach that to women?
Do you really think that some Christian women read this and think "yes, that is a command from God - we'll just disobey it"? That is exactly what Adam did - he heard God's command to refrain from eating fruit from a tree, and he still did it.
Do you really think that God is incapable of rebuking these women who are, apparently, disobeying him? God back to your first example; Ananias and Sapphira? Why are these women not dead, instead of in the pulpit saying "God has called me to do this"?

This is the problem with many Christians today. They do what they feel to do rather than what Scripture commands.

Which is why there is a thorough period of testing and discernment.
If you are claiming that a woman says "I feel God is calling me to do this" and men simply say "oh, right; get yourself a cassock and we'll discuss your ordination service"; you are doing a great disservice to both women and men.

 

[Strong in Him]

If your "exegesis" is accurate, you would know that.

I do; I told you.

 

[Strong in Him]

I'll just get back to working on this week's sermon. On Luke 3:15-22, if you're curious.

Same here.
Any ideas/thoughts? This is my 3rd in a row and I'm feeling all sermoned out.