Drain the Swamp

[Arcangl86]

How many people work for the federal government? | USAFacts

The federal government employs around 3 million people, making it the nation's 15th largest workforce.

usafacts.org

This article is about a 5 minute read. However, I wish that it would also have given information about the amounts of employees of federal contractors. It would not shock me if that particular number is close to a million more people.

You are way off. From the numbers I can find, the number is actually closer to 4 million. So actually more then direct employees.

 

[Vambram]

You are way off. From the numbers I can find, the number is actually closer to 4 million. So actually more then direct employees.

Thank you. So therefore, our Federal Government is paying for about how many employees? Are we looking at around 6 million people? Then, I think that we are also looking at around 2 million active duty military Servicemembers.

 

[Arcangl86]

Thank you. So therefore, our Federal Government is paying for about how many employees? Are we looking at around 6 million people? Then, I think that we are also looking at around 2 million active duty military Servicemembers.

If this is accurate, then about 9 million people all told, including both military and USPS. Most people don't consider military to be government employees, and I would exclude the USPS carriers as well since they are hired and paid more like a private business (for example they don't rely on appropriations and thus cost the feds nothing)

 

[Vambram]

If this is accurate, then about 9 million people all told, including both military and USPS. Most people don't consider military to be government employees, and I would exclude the USPS carriers as well since they are hired and paid more like a private business (for example they don't rely on appropriations and thus cost the feds nothing)

Thank you. Therefore to me, that means there are about 9 million people whose income comes from taxes paid to the federal government.

 

[Arcangl86]

Thank you. Therefore to me, that means there are about 9 million people whose income comes from taxes paid to the federal government.

I mean in reality the number is far higher then that. You just described social security. Not to mention pension payments for government service (both civilian and military). But the thing is, those payments get plowed straight back into the economy. It's not a primary purpose, but the federal government in many ways functions as one giant jobs program.

ETA: I also suspect that the POGO report doesn't account for people employed by governments and nonprofits using federal money. The huge size of the federal budget is a result of it giving out a lot of money and not necessarily having a large staff itself.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Thank you for your point of view. May I ask you if you believe that there are too many employees and/or bureaucrats in the Federal Government?

As of 2023, the United States had 2.9 million civilian federal employees. The majority are not bureaucrats or holding cushy jobs. 99% of Federal employees are working to make America great.

The receptionist working at the local VA Hospital, who checks in veterans for health checkups at 7 am, is not a bureaucrat. Similarly, the border agent risking their life to apprehend drug dealers at the US southern border is not a bureaucrat. Additionally, the individual answering Helpdesk phone calls from citizens at the IRS is also not a bureaucrat. These are the majority of federal employee working in different federal department.

Defense and national security-related agencies account for nearly 71% of the entire civilian federal workforce outside of the US Postal Service. The Department of Veterans Affairs comprised over 20% of the entire federal workforce The next largest agencies were the Navy, Army and Department of Homeland Security.

Top Occupations

Over 310,000 employees in the federal government are in an occupation in the medical field. The medical field encompasses physicians, nurses, physical therapists, pharmacists, dental officers, veterinarians and many other public health occupations. For example, at the end of fiscal 2023, there were nearly 3,000 physical therapists at the Department of Veterans Affairs that help rehabilitate wounded warriors across the nation.

Another 300,000 federal employees occupy positions in the administrative and clerical services field. Occupations in this field range from program analysts and human resource managers to secretaries and facility managers. For example, surface maintenance specialists with the Department of the Army analyze problems with military equipment maintenance.

Some of the top hired occupations of fiscal 2023 included nurses, medical support assistants, compliance inspection and support, and contact representatives.

80% of federal employees worked outside of the Washington, D.C. metropolitan area in fiscal 2023. One percent of the federal workforce was in foreign countries


US has less federal employee today then 1945. Today civilian federal workforce has represented approximately 0.88% of the population.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

I definitely think the majority of government workers are just doing their job. There are those though that are totally ideological and will work directly to interfere with an administration, or set ideological standards. The swamp, rhe way i understand it, are those that are running direct interference to prevent or obstruct any agenda that is created to limit the size and power of the government.

That is not necessarily the typical worker, but those who have the actual power in the agencies.

An example is the FBI. The majority of the agents and worker bees are just doing their assigned jobs to the best of their abilities. While those in power are using it for a political purpose to grant favor to one group while pursuing another in an attempt to harm them.

Same goes for rhe DOJ.

Then there are agencies who are filled with ideologues such as the Dept of Education. Mostly because they belong to a group who typically is very left leaning in ideology.

I honestly don't know how other governments operate in comparison with the US. I do.find it difficult to believe that everyone in other countries loves their beurocrats and thinks they are all wonderful civil servants.

For centuries, no president complained about federal employees or called them the "deep state" working against the administration. Ronald Reagan didn't complain about the DOJ, George W. Bush didn't accuse the FBI of undermining his administration, and President Obama didn't criticize the Treasury or IRS. It seems only President Trump had issues with American federal workers. I trust Trump's predecessors more than him.

There have been a few controversial investigations conducted by the DOJ and the FBI over the past decade that may have been politically motivated. It is acknowledged that some individuals in senior positions within these organizations have acted with political motivations. However, this does not imply that everyone within the DOJ and FBI is politically motivated or working against the country or administration.

The FBI and DOJ have over 150,000 employees. Only about 500 are involved in politically motivated investigations, making it less than 0.3% who are corrupt or part of the so-called deep state.

You are correct in noting the tendencies of the Department of Education and educational institutions in America. The majority of educational institutions often lean towards liberalism, primarily because many educators, including teachers and university professors, hold liberal views. However, this does not imply that they are acting against American interests. Disagreeing with a liberal viewpoint does not mean that those views are anti-American. If conservatives seek a more balanced representation of viewpoints within the American education system, it is essential for educated conservatives to pursue careers in education rather than opting for positions on Wall Street.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I love how mutable the concept of "The Swamp" is.

Once upon a time it was lobbyists and corruption in government.
Yesterday is was Democratic politicians like the Clintons, Obama, Biden and Pelosi.
Today it is government itself.

I thought it was in reference to corruption, not size.

 

[rjs330]

The receptionist working at the local VA Hospital, who checks in veterans for health checkups at 7 am, is not a bureaucrat. Similarly, the border agent risking their life to apprehend drug dealers at the US southern border is not a bureaucrat. Additionally, the individual answering Helpdesk phone calls from citizens at the IRS is also not a bureaucrat. These are the majority of federal employee working in different federal department.

I don't think anyone is suggesting they are. I can't think of anyone that would consider those types of people bureaucrats. I think the way most people consider the actual policy and lawmakers as the bureaucrats. People like rhe ones you mention are just the worker bees. They have little to nothing say in how things get done, or setting the rules.

Another 300,000 federal employees occupy positions in the administrative and clerical services field. Occupations in this field range from program analysts and human resource managers to secretaries and facility managers. For example, surface maintenance specialists with the Department of the Army analyze problems with military equipment maintenance.

Some of them are bureaucrats who set policy, rules and regulations. Sometimes they are merely setting rules regarding scheduling or maintenance. Others set rules and policy and regulations that affect all of us. Or may be ideological in nature.


The point is one size does not fit all. And when one looks at the shear number of government agencies we find that many of them could be removed for efficiency.

Why did you choose 1945 as the benchmark.

 

[KathrynAragon]

I could be wrong but I believe federal spending went from around 22 percent of GDP to 34.4 percent in three years.

Wait a minute, I just checked the graph and it says the last time it was in the twenties was 1970! It's been in the thirties ever since except during the pandemic.

United States Government Spending To GDP

Government spending in the United States was last recorded at 34.4 percent of GDP in 2023 . This page provides - United States Government Spending To Gdp- actual values, historical data, forecast, chart, statistics, economic calendar and news.

tradingeconomics.com

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Government income as % of GDP also has risen.

https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/rev@FPP/USA?zoom=USA&highlight=USA

I like this site to track the economy.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Deficit/surplus history:

United States - Federal Surplus or Deficit [-] - 2024 Data 2025 Forecast 1980 Historical

United States - Federal Surplus or Deficit [-] was -257450.34319 Mil. of $ in October of 2024, according to the United States Federal Reserve. Historically, United States - Federal Surplus or Deficit [-] reached a record high of 308215.06053 in April of 2022 and a record low of -864074.06849 in...

tradingeconomics.com

and Debt % GDP

United States Gross Federal Debt to GDP

The United States recorded a Government Debt to GDP of 122.30 percent of the country's Gross Domestic Product in 2023. This page provides - United States Government Debt To GDP - actual values, historical data, forecast, chart, statistics, economic calendar and news.

tradingeconomics.com

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

I don't think anyone is suggesting they are. I can't think of anyone that would consider those types of people bureaucrats. I think the way most people consider the actual policy and lawmakers as the bureaucrats. People like rhe ones you mention are just the worker bees. They have little to nothing say in how things get done, or setting the rules.

Some of them are bureaucrats who set policy, rules and regulations. Sometimes they are merely setting rules regarding scheduling or maintenance. Others set rules and policy and regulations that affect all of us. Or may be ideological in nature.


The point is one size does not fit all. And when one looks at the shear number of government agencies we find that many of them could be removed for efficiency.

Why did you choose 1945 as the benchmark.

Today civilian federal workforce has represented approximately 0.88% of the population, that is not excessive. As I have said today we have less federal employee represented then any time in the past.

Every agency and department needs bureaucrats. I have worked in small businesses with 5 employees as well as large multinational companies with 160,000 employees. Each of them had bureaucrats and policy makers. The US government is no exception.

Any large department or agency requires bureaucrats and policymakers, especially when their policies and bureaucracy affect millions of people. Do all the policies and bureaucracy make sense? I doubt they do.

The question is, what percentage of these policies are unnecessary and fall under government waste? The answer is likely to be 2%-3% or even less. Is it necessary to overhaul the US government or dismantle entire agencies because of this small percentage? This approach may be considered excessive and counterproductive.

Every government agency faces issues related to waste and excessive bureaucracy. Addressing these challenges through political ideology alone may not be sufficient. For instance, if there are problems within the FBI, one must consider whether someone like Kash Patel, who has no prior experience working in government agencies, is capable of effectively reforming an institution with an 80-year history.

As mentioned in my previous post, it is unfortunate that many Americans, regardless of their ideological leanings, distrust the federal government and view federal employees negatively. The reality is that less than 1% of federal employees are involved in unnecessary bureaucracy, politically motivated and so-called “ deep state”.

 

[Say it aint so]

I thought it was in reference to corruption, not size.

Exactly. It was this group deeply embedded in government who are really running the show.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Exactly. It was this group deeply embedded in government who are really running the show.

I would say that hypothetical entity is the "Deep State".

 

[Say it aint so]

I would say that hypothetical entity is the "Deep State".

Sorry. Getting the canards mixed up.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

This is interesting. A corruption index. Funny it grew higher during the Trump years 2017 to 2021.

United States Corruption Rank

The United States is the 28 least corrupt nation out of 180 countries, according to the 2024 Corruption Perceptions Index reported by Transparency International. This page provides - United States Corruption Rank- actual values, historical data, forecast, chart, statistics, economic calendar and...

tradingeconomics.com

 

[rjs330]

Any large department or agency requires bureaucrats and policymakers, especially when their policies and bureaucracy affect millions of people. Do all the policies and bureaucracy make sense? I doubt they do.

And that's the problem. Bureaucrats who set policy and regulations and rules for the reat us. Unelected officials who can tell us how we should operate in our daily lives. Unbeholden to us who pay them. Many with an ideological bent.

And there are those who operate in direct opposition to those with conservative views and values while supporting and excusing and offering assistance to those with liberal ideas.

 

[rjs330]

This is interesting. A corruption index. Funny it grew higher during the Trump years 2017 to 2021.

United States Corruption Rank

The United States is the 28 least corrupt nation out of 180 countries, according to the 2024 Corruption Perceptions Index reported by Transparency International. This page provides - United States Corruption Rank- actual values, historical data, forecast, chart, statistics, economic calendar and...

tradingeconomics.com

Corruption Perception. I'm sure it's all based upon absolute fact. Still it may be accurate since during the Trump administration the deep state was deeply involved in trying to sabotage him.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Corruption Perception. I'm sure it's all based upon absolute fact. Still it may be accurate since during the Trump administration the deep state was deeply involved in trying to sabotage him.

Trusting Trump will drain the swamp is like trusting the Creature from the Black lagoon. So now he has a chance to dismantle "the deep state" phantom. 2-4 years of no one else to blame. Let's see how we do.