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Taking Questions on Embedded Age Creation

BCP1928

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I don't know why "going all Romish", starting thinking about gun control (I already live in the UK where very few people own guns), or about single payer health care, or any of the other things you mention, would follow if there was an indication in the bible that the Creation account in Genesis, and in John 1 were not in fact literal.
Yeah, in the UK it's different. Here, literal inerrancy is promoted for political reasons. Young Earth creationism was all but moribund until the sixties and found only in fringe Christian groups--Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Dispensationalists, etc. The Scopes trial in 1925 wasn't about an old Earth or evolution, but specifically and only about the teaching of the evolution of man. William Jennings Bryan, the prosecuting attorney, when called by the defense as an expert witness about the Bible testified under oath that he didn't know how old the Earth was and didn't really care. YECism got a boost in the 60s with a book called The Genesis Flood which reworked Seventh Day Adventist doctrine for a more general Fundamentalist audience. So generally speaking we are talking about Fundamentalist Protestants who derive their name from a series of pamhplets published in 1905 called The Fundamentals, one of those "fundamentals" being the literal inerrancy of Scripture.
Fundamentlists have tended to be anti-Catholic and now that the detente arranged by Ronald Regan's political operatives over abortion has become redundant with the end of Roe v. Wade they are returning to that stance, as Catholics can't be depended upon to to take the correct right-wing line on the remaining culture war issues.
 
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truthpls

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Why? Your motivation was obvious from the start.
Your imagined conspiracy theory about me is made up. Methinks thou doest protest too much. Man was created as Jesus said, male and female. That is not negotiable or some mystery. Just as it is a sin for people of the same sex to have intimate relations. But I suppose if one has tossed out most of the bible anyhow, they don't care what God thinks.
See, for Traditional Christians the Bible tells us that homosexual activity is a sin, along with fornication, adultery and cross dressing. But that's it--just sins
Right.
Most of what gay and trans people do can be considered sinful. But to claim that they don't exist is political.
Did I claim some people were not there? Not sure what you are trying to say. Sinners do exist. People for example that give themselves over to murder and bad spirits exist. That would not mean they could use an excuse they were born a serial killing psychopath. Jesus gave man the choice to be free of all that. There will always be some who wickedly plunge headlong into all sorts of demonic depths of hell, and those who try to justify them. It is not political to realize that such a descent into evil is a choice and not the way we were created.
 
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truthpls

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The funny thing is... this 100% proves my point on "But unfortunately, many of them are not qualified in the things they like to make claims about."

Why is an engineer who designed spacecraft qualified and considered an expert enough to talk about evolution and the age of the earth? It's just an appeal to authority.
Even animals know they were created compared to science.

Job 12:7-10
But ask the beasts, and they will teach you;
the birds of the heavens, and they will tell you;
8 or the bushes of the earth, and they will teach you;[a]
and the fish of the sea will declare to you.
9 Who among all these does not know
that the hand of the Lord has done this
?
10 In his hand is the life of every living thing
and the breath of all mankind.

This means that even bushes know more than science! Even beasts and fish! So if a man who has education in the world also knows this, it is not because of but in spite of science! The majority of worldly wise men of science who remain willingly ignorant as the bible calls it of God and creation are in no position to criticize anyone. They know less than bushes.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Even animals know they were created compared to science.

Job 12:7-10
But ask the beasts, and they will teach you;
the birds of the heavens, and they will tell you;
8 or the bushes of the earth, and they will teach you;[a]
and the fish of the sea will declare to you.
9 Who among all these does not know
that the hand of the Lord has done this
?
10 In his hand is the life of every living thing
and the breath of all mankind.

This means that even bushes know more than science! Even beasts and fish! So if a man who has education in the world also knows this, it is not because of but in spite of science! The majority of worldly wise men of science who remain willingly ignorant as the bible calls it of God and creation are in no position to criticize anyone. They know less than bushes.

Nice bit of rambling there.
 
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dlamberth

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Well, I'll do the same, and repeat what I said, that it only looks billions of years old if we believe that it is that old.
How is the light from stars that are billions of light years away only appearing that far away? But are in truth only 6000 years old? That makes no sense at all.
 
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dlamberth

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Well, the scientist who believe in a comparatively young earth have the same evidence, but they interpret it differently, as they have different presuppositions. But I expect you will just say that if they believe in a young earth, they can't be serious scientists.
Those scientist who believe in a young earth do not have the geology of the earth behind them. What they do have are concepts and ideas based on their presuppositions. That's it. When challenged with what the Earth is actually showing of itSelf there's no real science behind the geology in their arguments.
 
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truthpls

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Radiometric dating is not about how the rock was formed or what the composition was initially, it is about using the properties of nuclei to measure the time *since* it was formed.
Says you. However if what was actually responsible for what is in the rocks was a result of either creation or some action or wish of the creator who is in all things and by whom all things consist then secular 'science' would not have any clue what was what.
Jesus did not even have to wave a wand or snap His finger to create all this universe. He just spoke and it was so. If he will something, every atom in the universe jumps into obedience right away. If God wants the sun to vanish, boom, it is no more instantly. That is what we are told in the bible will happen to the whole universe one day. Then, bang, another universe is made without even losing a beat or having to snap His fingers! If God wants the sun and stars to stop shining and go out even before that, boom, out they go without even a need to flip a light switch! And in the last days on earth that will happen we are told. Lots of things will happen that science says are impossible. For example if the sun goes out, what do you think science says would happen to earth and people? Science is not aware of how things really are or really work or why they exist. As mentioned in the last post, the plants know more!


How do these things alter the properties of nuclei. Cite sources.

Show how 'spiritual forces' affect nuclear decays.
Forget decays! His will affects their very existence! That is what His only source of words to man tells us. His will affects dead bodies, atoms, everything. WE do not know how it was when it was first created. Since that was only something like some several thousand years ago, all radioactive tea reading/dating is meaningless for any purposes that involve any times many thousands of years ago. Name any method that says some rock is older than 10,000 years and we will see that you have no authority.

Looking at something dated 12,000 years we can see that this principle stands.

"To reliably estimate the age of the figures carved into the rocks, the scientists determined the mass per area, or areal density, of manganese and iron on the rock surface. Both elements are part of the crust called rock varnish, which was deposited on rocks as a thin, dark coating. After carving, this layer forms again on the petroglyphs and grows over the years."


They didn't give details. If radioactivity was used, it would be irrelevant. Why? Because look at the half lives.

"Naturally occurring manganese is composed of one stable isotope, 55Mn. Several radioisotopes have been isolated and described, ranging in atomic weight from 46 u (46Mn) to 72 u (72Mn). The most stable are 53Mn with a half-life of 3.7 million years, 54Mn with a half-life of 312.2 days, and 52Mn with a half-life of 5.591 days. All of the remaining radioactive isotopes have half-lives of less than three hours, and the majority of less than one minute."

Any 3.7 million year decay is pure theory and could never be determined not to be partially from how it was existing when created. The rest are also not relevant because they half lives are way too short to matter.

Now if the way they 'date' was actually a rate of formation of the dark coating, then what could that be based on? How fast it would probably go dark today? That says nothing about how God may have affected the world in the flood time or before or after etc. As always it is just a godless conjecture exercise that seems sciency to some. Or perhaps a poster is aware of some other aspect of how this actually was dated and would like to post it. I think you can guess that it is certain that would fail also.
Nope. Just applying the physics that is to things that are.
No, just misapply physics while ignoring God and all His works and workings.
What purpose would this god have for altering the properties of matter to alter how we measure ages in the current era, assuming it could be done?
We don't know! If He willed the world to flood, or change mankind's lifespans or languages or the way man processes things in his little brain to comprehend language etc how would or could we know how that would affect physical processes or atomic laws or whatever? If we see that how things now appear and function would not match up with the way it would be if God's creation were true, then what has to go? Our faith stands. God stands. Creations stands. Anything else must be brought into subjection and adjusted or put in perspective.
Cool.

There is a whole branch call "stellar astrophysics" that explains in great detail how stars like the Sun work and how they change over time.
No. There is none. There is more godless assumptions projected into the universe.
"increase suddenly in heat" doesn't make any sense. Do you mean get brighter? Well, if so, we do know why the Sun will get brighter at the end of its existence thanks to stellar astrophysics.
I mean men chewing their tongues in pain. I mean heat far greater than anything anyone on earth has ever seen. And so that is not because the sun gets brighter as science might speculate! The sun goes dark!
Stars "go out" all the time and they do not affect us here on Earth.
No. They will affect earth when some fall on it! (sorry if you thought all stars were sun like) They will affect mankind when the sky is black rather than full pr beautiful lights! Men will be using candles (if they are lucky)
I get it. Your god can change the properties of matter as it wills to trick us into false conclusions.
There is no reason why we should be tricked unless we were deluded enough to think there was no creation and no God. I am not tricked when a storm happens. I am not tricked when Jesus does a miracle. He did not give Jesus a resurrected body and raise up His old one to trick people who may have been able to notice some atomic changes! He did not trick people by making gravity His little %itch so to speak when walking on water! He does what He will in the heaven and earth. Often what He will changes the way things were! Science takes only what is and tries to use that to tell us where we all came from.
(How do you cope in a world without the regularity of physical laws? I'm not sure I could deal with arbitrary changes to reality.)
Easy. How did Jesus rise up to return to heaven? How did He walk on water? How do angels fly? Reality not only includes, but is chiefly composed of God!
The nuclear physics of radioactive decays covers two of the four fundamental forces.
God exceeds all of the four forces and bends them and makes them appear or disappear with a word or less! The whole universe for example getting here and when it goes bye bye one day.
 
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dlamberth

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No. When the 'after' is way back near creation we do not know. Your interpretation of what happened after a rock was formed is also based on the same principles and foundation. How would you know, for example if the way a rock and isotopes in it are were not partly or wholly a result of being created?
I wouldn't work with "what if's". That's a deflection. What God created is straight up, honest with no "what if's"
why would we assume that the physical forces were the only thing that made the ratios and etc they way they are?
Because that's how God created them.

Or, how would we know what spiritual forces God exerted upon the planet since creation that would have affected radioactivity, or processes and etc?
Unless God is a deceiver, (which I highly doubt) there is no reason for God to exert changes in the physics of His Creation. Are you subscribing to God as a deceiver?
You, once again assume that there was no creation or God that affected anything and do so for no apparent reason. How would we know if God, after the fall, or the flood, or other times did not move in ways that affected this little world and it's little processes, normal ways etc?
Bible believers should know better.

More God the deceiver?
God is bigger than the universe and fills it all. By Him all things consist. The only way to read the isotopes or rocks or anything else correctly is to realize God made it all, and runs it all, and changes things all the time as needed.
There was no reason to changes things, God Himself said His Creation is good. Unless of course God is a deceiver.
Leaving Him out of dating is blindness and ignorance.
I subscribe to the idea of leaving the dating out of what His own Creation, as Created by God is showing us where the blindness and willful ignorance sits.
 
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BCP1928

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Even animals know they were created compared to science.

Job 12:7-10
But ask the beasts, and they will teach you;
the birds of the heavens, and they will tell you;
8 or the bushes of the earth, and they will teach you;[a]
and the fish of the sea will declare to you.
9 Who among all these does not know
that the hand of the Lord has done this
?
10 In his hand is the life of every living thing
and the breath of all mankind.

This means that even bushes know more than science! Even beasts and fish! So if a man who has education in the world also knows this, it is not because of but in spite of science! The majority of worldly wise men of science who remain willingly ignorant as the bible calls it of God and creation are in no position to criticize anyone. They know less than bushes.
Off topic.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Says you.
No, not "says me", that is how radioactive dating works.
However if what was actually responsible for what is in the rocks was a result of either creation or some action or wish of the creator who is in all things and by whom all things consist then secular 'science' would not have any clue what was what.
Jesus did not even have to wave a wand or snap His finger to create all this universe. He just spoke and it was so. If he will something, every atom in the universe jumps into obedience right away. If God wants the sun to vanish, boom, it is no more instantly. That is what we are told in the bible will happen to the whole universe one day. Then, bang, another universe is made without even losing a beat or having to snap His fingers! If God wants the sun and stars to stop shining and go out even before that, boom, out they go without even a need to flip a light switch! And in the last days on earth that will happen we are told. Lots of things will happen that science says are impossible. For example if the sun goes out, what do you think science says would happen to earth and people? Science is not aware of how things really are or really work or why they exist. As mentioned in the last post, the plants know more!
I don't address supernatural speculation.
Forget decays! His will affects their very existence! That is what His only source of words to man tells us. His will affects dead bodies, atoms, everything. WE do not know how it was when it was first created. Since that was only something like some several thousand years ago, all radioactive tea reading/dating is meaningless for any purposes that involve any times many thousands of years ago. Name any method that says some rock is older than 10,000 years and we will see that you have no authority.
You've shown nothing. Your personal opinions are worth nothing to me.
Looking at something dated 12,000 years we can see that this principle stands.

"To reliably estimate the age of the figures carved into the rocks, the scientists determined the mass per area, or areal density, of manganese and iron on the rock surface. Both elements are part of the crust called rock varnish, which was deposited on rocks as a thin, dark coating. After carving, this layer forms again on the petroglyphs and grows over the years."


They didn't give details. If radioactivity was used, it would be irrelevant. Why? Because look at the half lives.
The details are in the underlying paper, not the PR article, but even from the bit you quoted you clearly don't understand it because...
"Naturally occurring manganese is composed of one stable isotope, 55Mn. Several radioisotopes have been isolated and described, ranging in atomic weight from 46 u (46Mn) to 72 u (72Mn). The most stable are 53Mn with a half-life of 3.7 million years, 54Mn with a half-life of 312.2 days, and 52Mn with a half-life of 5.591 days. All of the remaining radioactive isotopes have half-lives of less than three hours, and the majority of less than one minute."
You clipped this bit from a wikipedia article about decay of manganese, which is not what is being measured in the article.

Any 3.7 million year decay is pure theory and could never be determined not to be partially from how it was existing when created. The rest are also not relevant because they half lives are way too short to matter.
As someone with a little familiarity with nuclear physics theory, I can tell you without looking the the half-life of Mn53 (3.7 million years) most definitely comes from experiments rather than theoretical calculations.
Now if the way they 'date' was actually a rate of formation of the dark coating, then what could that be based on?
That's exactly what they did.
How fast it would probably go dark today?
Check out their article.
That says nothing about how God may have affected the world in the flood time or before or after etc. As always it is just a godless conjecture exercise that seems sciency to some. Or perhaps a poster is aware of some other aspect of how this actually was dated and would like to post it. I think you can guess that it is certain that would fail also.
I'm not really interested in your claims about how your god is trying to deceive us.
No, just misapply physics while ignoring God and all His works and workings.

We don't know! If He willed the world to flood, or change mankind's lifespans or languages or the way man processes things in his little brain to comprehend language etc how would or could we know how that would affect physical processes or atomic laws or whatever? If we see that how things now appear and function would not match up with the way it would be if God's creation were true, then what has to go? Our faith stands. God stands. Creations stands. Anything else must be brought into subjection and adjusted or put in perspective.
Again you portray your own god as capricious and deceitful. This is on you and I see some of your fellow Christians have corrected you on this aspect. I will not as I don't really care.
No. There is none. There is more godless assumptions projected into the universe.
Stellar structure and evolution work quite well to explain the observed properties of stars.
I mean men chewing their tongues in pain. I mean heat far greater than anything anyone on earth has ever seen. And so that is not because the sun gets brighter as science might speculate! The sun goes dark!

No. They will affect earth when some fall on it! (sorry if you thought all stars were sun like) They will affect mankind when the sky is black rather than full pr beautiful lights! Men will be using candles (if they are lucky)
All stars are far more massive than Earth and could not "fall on it". In fact they are all far more massive than the largest planet in our system -- Jupiter.
There is no reason why we should be tricked unless we were deluded enough to think there was no creation and no God. I am not tricked when a storm happens. I am not tricked when Jesus does a miracle. He did not give Jesus a resurrected body and raise up His old one to trick people who may have been able to notice some atomic changes! He did not trick people by making gravity His little %itch so to speak when walking on water! He does what He will in the heaven and earth. Often what He will changes the way things were! Science takes only what is and tries to use that to tell us where we all came from.
If your god did indeed create all that is and the rules by which things interact (physics) as you seem to claim, then it also gave the Earth properties such that a careful application of the very best understanding of those rules would yield an age of 4.5 billion years for the Earth and 13.7 billion years for the whole of the Universe. That's not on me, that is on this creator.
Easy. How did Jesus rise up to return to heaven? How did He walk on water? How do angels fly? Reality not only includes, but is chiefly composed of God!
My personal guess is that none of those things happened so I don't have any need to explain them.
God exceeds all of the four forces and bends them and makes them appear or disappear with a word or less! The whole universe for example getting here and when it goes bye bye one day.
 
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dlamberth

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dlamberth

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Even animals know they were created compared to science.

Job 12:7-10
But ask the beasts, and they will teach you;
the birds of the heavens, and they will tell you;
8 or the bushes of the earth, and they will teach you;[a]
and the fish of the sea will declare to you.
9 Who among all these does not know
that the hand of the Lord has done this
?
10 In his hand is the life of every living thing
and the breath of all mankind.

This means that even bushes know more than science! Even beasts and fish! So if a man who has education in the world also knows this, it is not because of but in spite of science! The majority of worldly wise men of science who remain willingly ignorant as the bible calls it of God and creation are in no position to criticize anyone. They know less than bushes.
This has nothing to do with animals knowing they were created. This passage is about God's hand behind everything in Creation, if one would only look. It just seems to me like your making things up.
 
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Michael Z

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A “useable” earth would require imbedded creation. Topsoil doesn’t happen overnight, nor do fruit bearing trees that are ready to bear fruit.

This also explains radiometric dating of harmful radioactive isotopes that have very long half lives - much of the harmful radiation was already gone at the time of creation.

I wrote a paper about this at The Creation Paper
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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A “useable” earth would require imbedded creation. Topsoil doesn’t happen overnight, nor do fruit bearing trees that are ready to bear fruit.

This also explains radiometric dating of harmful radioactive isotopes that have very long half lives - much of the harmful radiation was already gone at the time of creation.

But why create a world with embedded age in the first place? Why create a world 6000 years ago but give it, when looked at in all the myriad ways age can be determined, age of 14 billion years?
 
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BCP1928

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A “useable” earth would require imbedded creation. Topsoil doesn’t happen overnight, nor do fruit bearing trees that are ready to bear fruit.

This also explains radiometric dating of harmful radioactive isotopes that have very long half lives - much of the harmful radiation was already gone at the time of creation.

I wrote a paper about this at The Creation Paper
A lot of "maybe could haves" and for what? For a shallow and theologically inadequate interpretation of an ancient holy book, an interpretation on which no essential Christian doctrine depends? Why?
 
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dlamberth

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A “useable” earth would require imbedded creation. Topsoil doesn’t happen overnight, nor do fruit bearing trees that are ready to bear fruit.

This also explains radiometric dating of harmful radioactive isotopes that have very long half lives - much of the harmful radiation was already gone at the time of creation.

I wrote a paper about this at The Creation Paper
For the life of me I'm just not at all understanding a deceptive God. That makes no sense to me.
 
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