Hey, Atheists...

[Bradskii]

But yeah. If I could live like Solomon without repercussions, I'd be highly tempted to make that my daily dalliance. But since I make the rational appraisals about ethical "Reality" in the way that I rationally do, surmising there's a God and Lord to mind, then I think three times before pursuing my own inclinations or creating my own moral definitions.

Trying to pick the bones out of that I think it's a rather long way of saying that you'll obey a moral rule as 'it is written' because it's God's and therefore it must be valid. Or that it's God's and whatever you think about it, you don't want to be punished.

The first raises the Euthyphro problem. The second, as has been said, is not you being moral, but obedient.

Maybe you could clarify.

 

[Bradskii]

There are many, many more nuances to Ethics and our individual moral choices than what pertain to the social context of a "free society," a whole lot more............................................... Read any academic and scholarly, secular source/book on Ethics alone and you'll see what I'm saying is true.

That's quite probably the main problem with, for example, a religious edict or commandment. It doesn't allow for 'nuances'. It's black and white.

 

[Bradskii]

Do we? If so it is because of empathy and something like the categorical imperative as our "rule book".
Is that good enough?

I think it woukd be for most people.

 

[Bradskii]

….because they don’t know what the Church teaches and are poorly catechized

One person is not saying that they don't know what the church says. They are saying that they disagree with what the church says. The other is not necessarily saying that the church is right. They are saying that the first person must be obedient.

 

[RileyG]

One person is not saying that they don't know what the church says. They are saying that they disagree with what the church says. The other is not necessarily saying that the church is right. They are saying that the first person must be obedient.

Ok. But from my perspective, a majority of Catholics don’t know what the Church teaches on artificial birth control, because they don’t bother to actually learn BUT we are getting off topic.

 

[Bradskii]

You think your morality is objectively accessible through the use of reason.

As opposed to someone else deciding it for me?

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Tropical, in saying what you're saying here, you're proving my point. I'm not sure you realize this, and my the point I've been driving in regard to Ethics has NOTHING to do with Christianity.

Here, let's try this brief exercise instead; it's an exercise that doesn't require the Bible whatsoever: Take Karl Marx and critique his ethics. Take any non-Christian ethicist and critique his or her ethics.

Can you do this? If so, by which Ethical position are you critiquing the other positions and why is "IT" the right one by which to critique the others?

What would we be comparing about them? How they’re the same? How they are different? Are we comparing philosopher to philosopher? How they’re ethics of one or the other is influenced by everything from age to society to location?

Or do you mean compare them, decide which one is right, and defend the winner?

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Do we? If so it is because of empathy and something like the categorical imperative as our "rule book".
Is that good enough?

So, again, are we saying that without a rule book that says “don’t punch people randomly in the face” that you wouldn’t be able to deduce that punching random people in the face for no reason isn’t morally ok?

 

[Tropical Wilds]

I have a sincere question for you, only because I’m truly curious.

What’s your spiritual background/what do you religiously identify as?

I’m Christian. You know that, you’ve seen me in the CO side of the forums.

 

[RileyG]

I’m Christian. You know that, you’ve seen me in the CO side of the forums.

Ok. I thought you stated you were raised as Methodist or Reformed and are now non-denominational?

Take care

 

[zippy2006]

As opposed to someone else deciding it for me?

You're really hung up on this "I get to decide!" thing. Usually that's just a teenage phase. Tis self-concealed pride.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Ok. I thought you stated you were raised as Methodist or Reformed and are now non-denominational?

Take care

Raised in a Christmas Catholic household with Democrat ideology, went to a Methodist church after I moved on my own, now more non-denominational eclectic who wanders into Christmas Catholic services once a year.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

So, again, are we saying that without a rule book that says “don’t punch people randomly in the face” that you wouldn’t be able to deduce that punching random people in the face for no reason isn’t morally ok?

No. I am asking what gives us that deduction. innate moral judgement or what?

 

[RileyG]

Raised in a Christmas Catholic household with Democrat ideology, went to a Methodist church after I moved on my own, now more non-denominational eclectic who wanders into Christmas Catholic services once a year.

Very cool

 

[Bradskii]

Ok. But from my perspective, a majority of Catholics don’t know what the Church teaches on artificial birth control, because they don’t bother to actually learn BUT we are getting off topic.

I actually think that the majority actually do know (I think that the majority of non Catholics know). They make a personal decision to choose to ignore it.

 

[RileyG]

I actually think that the majority actually do know (I think that the majority of non Catholics know). They make a personal decision to choose to ignore it.

What I meant is they don’t UNDERSTAND, they may know but not actually comprehend why the Church teaches it.

And yes, they choose to ignore it.

 

[Bradskii]

You're really hung up on this "I get to decide!" thing. Usually that's just a teenage phase. Tis self-concealed pride.

In my experience children quite often need to be told what to do. We make the choices for them. When they are mature enough we allow them to decide for themselves. We hope that they don't don't do something just because someone says so. We hope that they'll think about the implications themselves.

 

[Bradskii]

What I meant is they don’t UNDERSTAND, they may know but not actually comprehend why the Church teaches it.

In short, the church says that it offends God.

And yes, they choose to ignore it.

They don't think it's a reasonable position for the church to hold. This is so common a position (disagreeing with a religious edict) that it's hardly worth my time pointing it out. It's not the case that someone will think 'I know it's wrong, but I'll still do it'. It's that they think 'I disagree that it's wrong, therefore I'll do it'.

On the other hand they may think 'I agree it's wrong'. In which case they have personally decided if the command is valid.

Either way, they are choosing whether the commandment is valid or not.

 

[RileyG]

In short, the church says that it offends God.

They don't think it's a reasonable position for the church to hold. This is so common a position (disagreeing with a religious edict) that it's hardly worth my time pointing it out. It's not the case that someone will think 'I know it's wrong, but I'll still do it'. It's that they think 'I disagree that it's wrong, therefore I'll do it'.

On the other hand they may think 'I agree it's wrong'. In which case they have personally decided if the command is valid.

Either way, they are choosing whether the commandment is valid or not.

Agreed.

 

[Robban]

How about we talk about a non religious source of morality? Religious people have their scripture that they can claim as foundational (even though they will disagree on how to interpret). But what golden rule do you use? something like categorical imperative? utilitarianism? How do you decide what laws are needed?

Morality and/or immorality tells me nothing, I have never thought or used those words/terms.

What speaks to me is "wicked/wickedness" and/ or "righteous/righteousness."

The morality thing seems to me to be more about what people decide.

Ezekiel 18 is a wonderful chapter, Malachi 3:13-18 also, no wishy washy.