A conservative argument for women priests

[Love365]

Europe is in danger of underpopulation.
Because the Catholic Church has no women priests,
to teach women that pregnancy is safe and normal.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Europe is in danger of underpopulation.
Because the Catholic Church has no women priests,
to teach women that pregnancy is safe and normal.

Pregnancy was once considered safe and normal even with only male priests. Pregnancy is now considered abnormal and no numbers of female priests are going to change that. The Church of England (Anglican) has female priests and as a group they are disappearing. English Catholics have no women priests yet the reproduce more than the Anglicans. English Muslims have no women imams yet they reproduce more than the Anglicans. Maybe having women clergy make people in the congregation think pregnancy is unsafe and abnormal. Or just unwanted and to be terminated. Something I suspect most women clergy would be in favor of.

 

[Love365]

The Pentecostal Church is the fastest growing church in the world.

They have women preachers.

 

[chevyontheriver]

The Pentecostal Church is the fastest growing church in the world.

They have women preachers.

So?

Do they have priests? Do their ministers do what priests do?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

The Pentecostal Church is the fastest growing church in the world.

They have women preachers.

Here we go again.... Since your beliefs regarding female clergy are at odds with the Catholic Church, then join the Pentecostal Church which has no Priests.

 

[Love365]

Pregnancy was once considered safe and normal even with only male priests. Pregnancy is now considered abnormal and no numbers of female priests are going to change that. The Church of England (Anglican) has female priests and as a group they are disappearing. English Catholics have no women priests yet the reproduce more than the Anglicans. English Muslims have no women imams yet they reproduce more than the Anglicans. Maybe having women clergy make people in the congregation think pregnancy is unsafe and abnormal. Or just unwanted and to be terminated. Something I suspect most women clergy would be in favor of.

The United Kingdom is an island surrounded by water.

That means Christians from other European countries have
a more difficult time flowing into England.

They started making women priests in the 1990s.
They should have started in the 1920s.

 

[chevyontheriver]

The United Kingdom is an island surrounded by water.

That means Christians from other European countries have
a more difficult time flowing into England.

They started making women priests in the 1990s.
They should have started in the 1920s.

Have you joined up with the Episcopalians yet? You might be happier.

 

[RileyG]

Pregnancy was once considered safe and normal even with only male priests. Pregnancy is now considered abnormal and no numbers of female priests are going to change that. The Church of England (Anglican) has female priests and as a group they are disappearing. English Catholics have no women priests yet the reproduce more than the Anglicans. English Muslims have no women imams yet they reproduce more than the Anglicans. Maybe having women clergy make people in the congregation think pregnancy is unsafe and abnormal. Or just unwanted and to be terminated. Something I suspect most women clergy would be in favor of.

That's true and very unfortunate.

 

[RileyG]

The United Kingdom is an island surrounded by water.

That means Christians from other European countries have
a more difficult time flowing into England.

They started making women priests in the 1990s.
They should have started in the 1920s.

Florence Li Tim-Oi was actually the first woman ordained as a priest in the Anglican Communion in 1944.

 

[Paidiske]

Maybe having women clergy make people in the congregation think pregnancy is unsafe and abnormal. Or just unwanted and to be terminated. Something I suspect most women clergy would be in favor of.

That's a slander with no basis.

Pregnancy is, objectively, somewhat unsafe. That doesn't mean it's viewed as abnormal, or unwanted, or to be terminated. It doesn't mean that women clergy are any more likely to be pro-abortion than men clergy are.

@RileyG the point about Florence Li Tim-Oi was correct, but it's also correct that women weren't ordained priests in the Church of England until the 1990s.

 

[RileyG]

That's a slander with no basis.

Pregnancy is, objectively, somewhat unsafe. That doesn't mean it's viewed as abnormal, or unwanted, or to be terminated. It doesn't mean that women clergy are any more likely to be pro-abortion than men clergy are.

@RileyG the point about Florence Li Tim-Oi was correct, but it's also correct that women weren't ordained priests in the Church of England until the 1990s.

Yes. Thanks for the correction!

 

[chevyontheriver]

That's a slander with no basis.

Pregnancy is, objectively, somewhat unsafe. That doesn't mean it's viewed as abnormal, or unwanted, or to be terminated. It doesn't mean that women clergy are any more likely to be pro-abortion than men clergy are.

@RileyG the point about Florence Li Tim-Oi was correct, but it's also correct that women weren't ordained priests in the Church of England until the 1990s.

If you read the initial post the language there used 'to teach women that pregnancy is safe and normal' with the implication from the iniitial post was that pregnancy was considered by women to be unsafe and abnormal. Not MY implication. I did add 'unwanted' and 'to be terminated.

But women clergy, at least in the USA, in 'mainline' denominations ARE more 'progressive' and they ARE more pro-abortion than male clergy are. This isn't ALL clergy from all denominations but only from 'mainline' clergy, at least in the USA.

The PRRI, as far as I know fairly reliable and not 'right wing' says so: Study Shows Mainline Women Clergy Are Significantly More Progressive Than Their Male Counterparts

51 percent of these mainstream clergy, male and female, supported abortion in all or most cases. Of the women clergy 77 percent supported abortion in all or most cases. That was in 2008. More recently they were surveyed about the overturn of Roe V Wade. 69 percent of these mainstream clergy were opposed to the overturning of Roe V Wade while 91 percent of the female clergy were opposed to it's being overturned. Australia may differ. Non-mainstream denominations may differ. You may differ. But if it's a slander as you claim then it is a slander that does indeed have a basis. Which kind of makes it not slander.

And for the record, I said nothing about when the first Anglican woman priest was ordained, 1920's or 1990's or whenever.

 

[Paidiske]

If you read the initial post the language there used 'to teach women that pregnancy is safe and normal' with the implication from the iniitial post was that pregnancy was considered by women to be unsafe and abnormal.

I read the implication as being that men can't speak credibly about the experience of pregnancy. Which, you know, I can see that point...

I did add 'unwanted' and 'to be terminated.

And it was the last to which I particularly objected.

But women clergy, at least in the USA, in 'mainline' denominations ARE more 'progressive' and they ARE more pro-abortion than male clergy are. This isn't ALL clergy from all denominations but only from 'mainline' clergy, at least in the USA.

And I might have been less quick to object if you'd made that distinction clear. I still suspect there might be more nuance to tease out of that kind of statistic; for example, are women clergy more aware of risks to health and life involved in pregnancy? (I've heard men say some shockingly ignorant things, for example, about ectopic pregnancies).

More recently they were surveyed about the overturn of Roe V Wade. 69 percent of these mainstream clergy were opposed to the overturning of Roe V Wade while 91 percent of the female clergy were opposed to it's being overturned.

I'll just note that there's a difference between being pro-abortion, and thinking that legal protections are important. I wouldn't describe myself as pro-abortion, but I also think that it being illegal ends up with some pretty horrific results.

Australia may differ. Non-mainstream denominations may differ. You may differ. But if it's a slander as you claim then it is a slander that does indeed have a basis. Which kind of makes it not slander.

At the very least, it needed to be a more qualified statement.

And for the record, I said nothing about when the first Anglican woman priest was ordained, 1920's or 1990's or whenever.

No, that was responding to someone else.

 

[chevyontheriver]

At the very least, it needed to be a more qualified statement.

OK. It's qualified. Mainstream clergy as opposed to all sorts of clergy. American as opposed to any other country. And I tried to use the language of the PRRI report for what they surveyed on.

 

[SouthWestConvert]

Not one person has so far 'searched the scriptures' and quoted the Bible? What does God say on the matter.

1 Corinthians 14:34-36
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

There are examples of women 'teaching' others outside of the church, in what we would now term Bible studies etc.

The question to any female priest is; do they respect and fear God enough to obey his commands or not?

 

[Paidiske]

The question to any female priest is; do they respect and fear God enough to obey his commands or not?

Of course we do. The issue is not with respect for God; it's with differing understandings of the Scriptures.

 

[The Liturgist]

OK. It's qualified. Mainstream clergy as opposed to all sorts of clergy. American as opposed to any other country. And I tried to use the language of the PRRI report for what they surveyed on.

Even among the mainline denominations most female clergy I’ve met outside of the UCC are either pro-life or neutral. And female clergy in the ACNA and the NALC and the ECO, which separated from the Episcopalians, the ELCA and the PCUSA over the issue of gay marriage, have in my experience been consistently pro-life. So I would agree with @Paidiske on this point.

And conversely, the arguments made by the OP unfortunately do not make sense; the OP seems to regard female clergy as a panacea or silver bullet which it is not, indeed, in the case of the Roman Catholic Church it would cause a schism which in my opinion (and here I suspect my friend @Paidiske might disagree as we have disagreed on this issue in the past - specifically it is my opinion that no change in ordination policy or anything else pertaining to the liturgy should occur where there is a risk of schism, although right now I fear the RCC is teetering on the brink of a massive schism which could be caused by this or other issues that might arise as a result of “Synodality”, which as Orthodox bishops have been trying to convey to the RCC, the bishops in Germany and elsewhere calling for Synodality are not using the word in a manner compatible with how it was historically used in the early church and is still used in Orthodoxy (although we tend to prefer Conciliarity or the Slavonic word Sobornost).

 

[The Liturgist]

If you read the initial post the language there used 'to teach women that pregnancy is safe and normal' with the implication from the iniitial post was that pregnancy was considered by women to be unsafe and abnormal. Not MY implication. I did add 'unwanted' and 'to be terminated.

But women clergy, at least in the USA, in 'mainline' denominations ARE more 'progressive' and they ARE more pro-abortion than male clergy are. This isn't ALL clergy from all denominations but only from 'mainline' clergy, at least in the USA.

The PRRI, as far as I know fairly reliable and not 'right wing' says so: Study Shows Mainline Women Clergy Are Significantly More Progressive Than Their Male Counterparts

51 percent of these mainstream clergy, male and female, supported abortion in all or most cases. Of the women clergy 77 percent supported abortion in all or most cases. That was in 2008. More recently they were surveyed about the overturn of Roe V Wade. 69 percent of these mainstream clergy were opposed to the overturning of Roe V Wade while 91 percent of the female clergy were opposed to it's being overturned. Australia may differ. Non-mainstream denominations may differ. You may differ. But if it's a slander as you claim then it is a slander that does indeed have a basis. Which kind of makes it not slander.

And for the record, I said nothing about when the first Anglican woman priest was ordained, 1920's or 1990's or whenever.

In my experience, outside of the UCC, where nearly everyone outside of the Faithful and Welcoming churches was pro-abortion, the male clergy of the mainline churches were more likely to support it.

Also, a number of female presbyters were not only conservative, but were members of husband and wife ministry teams, which we also see routinely in the Salvation Army. In this respect, they resemble the Presbyter/Presbytera duo which characterizes most Orthodox parish priests (since only a minority are monastics), albeit without the division of responsibilities.

 

[Paidiske]

And conversely, the arguments made by the OP unfortunately do not make sense; the OP seems to regard female clergy as a panacea or silver bullet which it is not,

Quite.

indeed, in the case of the Roman Catholic Church it would cause a schism which in my opinion (and here I suspect my friend @Paidiske might disagree as we have disagreed on this issue in the past - specifically it is my opinion that no change in ordination policy or anything else pertaining to the liturgy should occur where there is a risk of schism,

The problem with this is that you then have people who resort to threat of schism every time they don't get their own way, to stymie change or indeed even discussion. It becomes a tool of control, rather than a grievous last resort.

At the end of the day, we have to stand up for what we believe and know to be right. What other people do in response to that is on their conscience.

And, you know, if people really want to talk about the pastoral reality of abortion, here's something to consider: by far the most common abortion-related pastoral situation I encounter, is older married women whose husbands pressure or coerce them, often with threat or abandonment or divorce, to have an abortion. The issue isn't that women don't see pregnancy as "safe and normal." The issue is controlling men who react badly to unplanned pregnancies disturbing their comfortable lives. So there's teaching to be done there, but it might not be the teaching that some people expect.

 

[SouthWestConvert]

Of course we do. The issue is not with respect for God; it's with differing understandings of the Scriptures.

And how might one 'understand the scriptures' to come to any other conclusion?

As Jesus says in Luke to God the Father 42 '... nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.'