Shouldn't all Evangelicals want Christian Nationalism?

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Bodies, yes. But Christ the Lord has refused to rule over people of this world. His very words matter first, and last, and most of all. His followers deny ourselves, our fleshly birthrights, our purposes of love of this world, in favor of that which He has said.

So should Christians abstain from marriage? Should we abandon Kin? Should we neglect our Mothers and Fathers? Should we refuse to attend Church because it is made up of flawed sinful people, most of whom aren't possibly saved?

I don't understand why political power is forbidden when everything else which is fleshly is allowed and permitted. Obviously all of these things are good, so why can't the civil power in the hands of Christians also be a tool for good?

Ultimately by your logic we should all become monastics but that is not a path all have to follow and some Christians are called to political leadership.

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

I am not devoted to so-called "logic", mine or others', and I shall recommend against being so. I am devoted to that which Christ the Lord has said, done, and discussed, and shall recommend so.

 

[David Lamb]

A Christian nation is not an investment in the world, but a national witness, and a national ambassador of the kingdom of heaven. Not the true thing, but an image of it, as man is in the image of God.

It is perhaps worth noting that Revelation speaks of Christians as being "of (in the sense of "from") all nations". The idea of a "Christian nation" is not a biblical one, in my view.

 

[MaximumCrust]

I absolutely oppose Christianity being spread by means of right wing authoritarianism. I shouldn't have to explain why.

 

[David Lamb]

I absolutely oppose Christianity being spread by means of right wing authoritarianism. I shouldn't have to explain why.

I would oppose the idea of Christianity being spread by any authoritarianism, whether "right-wing" or not.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Going back to my hypothetical I offered you, how would you apply these standards you have here in that particular circumstance? One where there is only a community of Christians who have gathered in agreement? Do you believe it is possible for Christians to participate in government independent of non-Christian authority?

I'm confused. As an American Patriot, by definition you seek to serve your Nation, albeit with the caveat that your faith in Christ comes first. Why would a Christian Nationalist be unable to make the same distinction as you? There have been plenty of Christian governments and many people disobeyed the authority of said government because they thought it contradicted true teaching. Thomas More comes to mind.

Every type of government, no matter who leads it, originates from worldly government. God was displeased when the Israelites requested a king.

"But when they said, "Give us a king to lead us," this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the LORD. And the LORD told him: "Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king."

The same applies today, especially Jesus' teachings. We live in the world but are not of it. To make the world better, we spread the gospel through our testimony, prayers, and by living a godly life in obedience to God's word.

The concept of a "godly government" does not align with biblical teachings. Attempting to create such a government on earth contradicts the Gospel and undermines the purpose of Jesus' earthly mission.

I am not interested in hypothetical. Without Biblical teachings to support the notion of a “Christian government,” these debates remain purely theological constructs created by humans.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I am not interested in hypothetical. Without Biblical teachings to support the notion of a “Christian government,” these debates remain purely theological constructs created by humans.

It's not theological. It is masquerading, cosplaying, as theological. But there's no actual theology involved.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

I absolutely oppose Christianity being spread by means of right wing authoritarianism. I shouldn't have to explain why.

It's hard to preach the Gospel to limp bodies hanging from a gallows.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

It's hard to preach the Gospel to limp bodies hanging from a gallows.

-CryptoLutheran

Where are you seeing that?

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

I am not interested in hypotheticals. And it is true that many people claim "patriotism" with a caveat of Christ. But Christ the Lord is not a caveat. To make of Him a caveat is to not do as He has asked. The reality of making Him a caveat, is very little Christ and very much devotion and investment into that which Christ the Lord asked us to avoid. In other words, national quasichristianism, quasichristian nationalism, not that which Christ the Lord has asked of us.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

It's hard to preach the Gospel to limp bodies hanging from a gallows.

-CryptoLutheran

True

However, the most profound testimony occurred in succession: when the Son of God sacrificed himself on the cross and rose from the dead three days afterward.

And Paul wrote this about his suffering and persecution

“My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong”

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Every type of government, no matter who leads it, originates from worldly government. God was displeased when the Israelites requested a king.

Do you reject all worldly aspects of life? Do you reject marriage? Do you reject relationships? Do you reject being a parent? Do you reject friends?

"But when they said, "Give us a king to lead us," this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the LORD. And the LORD told him: "Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king."

The same applies today, especially Jesus' teachings. We live in the world but are not of it. To make the world better, we spread the gospel through our testimony, prayers, and by living a godly life in obedience to God's word.

Was the world made better or worse through Christians assuming it was their natural duty when they were called to excercise power? I would like to hear your opinion on this. Should all law, all power, all influence in society have been dominated by non-Christians so that it would only benefit them?

The concept of a "godly government" does not align with biblical teachings. Attempting to create such a government on earth contradicts the Gospel and undermines the purpose of Jesus' earthly mission.

Where did Christ forbid Christians from being rulers? Are people with power the only people who should not become Christians? Why did Paul wish for the conversion of the King of Israel?

I am not interested in hypothetical. Without Biblical teachings to support the notion of a “Christian government,” these debates remain purely theological constructs created by humans.

How would you feel if you didn't have breakfast this morning? If you're unable to deal with a simple hypothetical then conversation cannot continue since you are not capable of rational thought.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I am not interested in hypotheticals. And it is true that many people claim "patriotism" with a caveat of Christ. But Christ the Lord is not a caveat. To make of Him a caveat is to not do as He has asked. The reality of making Him a caveat, is very little Christ and very much devotion and investment into that which Christ the Lord asked us to avoid. In other words, national quasichristianism, quasichristian nationalism, not that which Christ the Lord has asked of us.

Then you are not interested in dealing with the question of Christians in power very seriously. Because I see no reason why in the hypothetical I describe that said Christian community cannot rule itself, in terms of administrating laws, determining justice and governance in general. I suppose by your reckoning the Christians would need to find a non-Christian ruler or government to rule over them and regulate them. Which is kind of sad since it is Saint Paul who tells us that we will one day judge angels, so how dare we go to a non-Christian to settle our disputes.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I am not devoted to so-called "logic", mine or others', and I shall recommend against being so. I am devoted to that which Christ the Lord has said, done, and discussed, and shall recommend so.

Oh so you're not capable of rational thought. Noted.

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

Interesting accusation. Noted.

It is, also, very interesting to study the responses of Christ the Lord, to reasonings of those who are not God.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Where are you seeing that?

The general trend when we create a favorite or privileged class of persons we reduce the rights and privileges of the others--to what extent that happens is variable. But, in the long history of human civilization, one way to treat the others is by making them illegal, sometimes that means restricting them, sometimes that means punishing them with penalties or even imprisonment, and sometimes it means death.

To put it simply, I don't trust those who speak of the creation of a modern Christian Nationalist polity to stop at merely enshrining aspects of Christianity in national codes. If disagreement with the State can criminalize dissent, I suspect repeats of what has been observed in history.

If the Church's mission is to proclaim the Gospel to the unbelieving, but the unbelieving dwell in a hostile environment that deprives them of rights and privileges, or worse, deprives them of the basic right to life; that radically interferes with the Church's mission of proclaiming the Gospel. Hence, it's difficult to preach the Gospel to a limp body hanging in a gallows.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

The general trend when we create a favorite or privileged class of persons we reduce the rights and privileges of the others--to what extent that happens is variable. But, in the long history of human civilization, one way to treat the others is by making them illegal, sometimes that means restricting them, sometimes that means punishing them with penalties or even imprisonment, and sometimes it means death.

To put it simply, I don't trust those who speak of the creation of a modern Christian Nationalist polity to stop at merely enshrining aspects of Christianity in national codes. If disagreement with the State can criminalize dissent, I suspect repeats of what has been observed in history.

If the Church's mission is to proclaim the Gospel to the unbelieving, but the unbelieving dwell in a hostile environment that deprives them of rights and privileges, or worse, deprives them of the basic right to life; that radically interferes with the Church's mission of proclaiming the Gospel. Hence, it's difficult to preach the Gospel to a limp body hanging in a gallows.

-CryptoLutheran

We are we taught about universal rights in the Gospel and the duty of Christians to uphold said rights?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Interesting accusation. Noted.

It is, also, very interesting to study the responses of Christ the Lord, to reasonings of those who are not God.

You rejected logical thinking and have no response. If you disagree and want to have a logical/rational discussion, then by all means lets. But you seem to have a problem with hypothetical situations and scenarios. I am curious, how would you feel if you didn't have breakfast one morning? Are you capable of thinking about abstracts and hypotheticals?

 

[ViaCrucis]

We are we taught about universal rights in the Gospel and the duty of Christians to uphold said rights?

Human beings are created in the Image of God, and therefore all human persons have intrinsic dignity that is to be upheld and respected.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Human beings are created in the Image of God, and therefore all human persons have intrinsic dignity that is to be upheld and respected.

-CryptoLutheran

Dignity being what exactly? What must be respected?