Wife getting massages

[Paidiske]

That still doesn't make sense....because it's a "sometimes" thing you're describing and it seems to be an "everytime" thing with only guys, not women, or more likely....the same guy.

Is she picking this guy deliberately?

That we really don't know. But I'd still argue, in the scenario as presented, I see nothing inherently wrong or even suspicious.

Relaxation isn't "pain relief".

But massage can be - and the OP states that in this case it is - for pain relief.

Sorry...I thought that was clear. I wanted to go celebrate with my friends, they wanted to go to the strip club. I wasn't there for the strippers.

For some odd reason you seem to have jumped to that conclusion in my hypothetical. Perhaps the husband just wants to drink with his friends and they want to drink there. Perhaps they have cheap drinks. It's not inherently sexual.

See how that works now?

You might not be there for the strippers, but it's pretty hard to argue that stripping isn't inherently a sexual thing, whether you personally are engaged by that or not. The whole point is basically money-for-sexual-titillation.

However, massage is not an inherently sexual thing.

Let's imagine a husband who follows your advice, never trying to influence his wife's behavior when it bothers him or makes him uncomfortable.

That's not what I'm advising, though. I'm not saying a husband (or a wife) can't try to influence their spouse's behaviour. (God knows I've been trying to influence mine in some things for a good eighteen years now). I'm not saying a spouse can't raise discomforts or concerns and seek to work through them together. But there's a difference between, "I'm not really comfortable with this, can we talk about that?" in an open ended way that acknowledges that the outcome needs to be negotiated and agreed to by both, and either or both parties might need to adjust, and "I'm not comfortable (for no good reason that I can articulate), so you must stop doing x now."

Do I really need to quote him?

"He is a licensed "massage therapist" and I have been assured it is completely non-sexual, just for relaxation and, as needed, working out a stiff back or sore neck, that sort of thing."

Primary reason= just relaxation.
Secondary reason= stiff back/sore neck.

I read it as the primary reason being stiffness and pain, with relaxation as a by-product.

But we agree the problem is that he is uncomfortable with the massages because of some potential sexual element....right?

Not quite. I would say he is uncomfortable with the massages because although on one level he acknowledges they are not sexual, he is not able to disambiguate his wife's body and her sexuality. Basically, he's projecting his sexualisation of her body, onto something that is not at all sexual for her.

Otherwise I don't know why you keep insisting this is a sexual problem of some kind.

The way I see it, it's completely non-sexual for her. And while on one level he acknowledges that, he can't think of someone touching her without reacting to it as sexual, despite the fact that it's not.

No....he's masking his insecurities and seeking reassurance that what he suspects is happening isn't happening.

So you think he is not being honest when he says "I don't believe it will lead to any actual impropriety or infidelity"? And actually, he suspects this is some form of erotic massage? And he wants to see whether that's the conclusion a bunch of randoms on the internet jump to, on the information given?

Because it's not the conclusion I jump to at all.

If you can't understand that....explain what it is you think is the problem in different words.

I think, like a lot of guys, he's seeing women's bodies (specifically, his wife's body) as inherently sexual. He can't think of a massage as not sexual because it involves action that he sexualises. So even though he acknowledges that this is not improper, she's not being unfaithful, it's therapeutic, etc., just the thought of another man touching his wife that way is something discomfitting because if it involves her skin and body, on some level he can't see it as not sexual.

He's sexualising a situation that he's 100% confident is in no way sexual doesn't make sense to even a teenager. He's either sexualising it because he's not really that confident....or there's some other problem that he left no clues for.

Maybe I'm just far more used to men sexualising things that to women aren't sexual at all. (Breastfeeding is a typical example). It's a really common reaction to things to do with women's bodies. (It's also demeaning, dehumanising, and very tiresome).

Ok...let's examine these sorts of dynamics outside of a spousal relationship so you don't have any Christian hangups about it....

Imagine a parent putting their child on "time out" and demanding they sit quietly in a corner because of their bad behavior. Let's also imagine this parent threatening to kick this child out of their house at 18 because of something they did.

We can agree that while one of those reactions is more severe than the other....they're both attempts to influence or change the child's behavior, right?

Neither, however, are analogous to this situation.

If you really want to get philosophical...all language communicated to another is an attempt at manipulation. All of it. Even if the only reason why I'm explaining this to you, right now, as you read these words.... is to get you to change from not understanding what I'm saying to a point of understanding what I'm saying....which, however tiny and insignificant, is still manipulation of you and your perspective.

There is still a fundamental difference between drawing a boundary that says, "I will not accept (x behaviour that is harmful to me)," and "I will not allow you to do (y behaviour that is not harmful to me)."

Right. Which seemed like a reasonable position until I described this as a boundary (which it is...once she knows it makes him uncomfortable, she's choosing to make him uncomfortable from then on...even that is manipulation)....at which point you seemed to object to the whole idea.

I am trying to disambiguate healthy boundaries in relationships (which are really about how a person manages their own wellbeing), from controlling the other person.

She gets to choose what she values more....the massages or the comfort of her husband. That's a valid option for him to give her... and even if there's no ultimatum. No spoken consequences....don't imagine it's not an attempt to influence her behavior.

If he puts it in those terms, I'd still have problems with it. If he goes into the conversation seeking to understand and to love his wife, and open to a possible range of outcomes, including that he might be the one who needs to do some adjusting, then that's a far more healthy approach.

 

[Ana the Ist]

That we really don't know. But I'd still argue, in the scenario as presented, I see nothing inherently wrong or even suspicious.

Ok....well sorry to cut your post short, but we need to resolve this question if we are going to avoid going in circles conversationalist.

What is the problem that is causing the OP to have discomfort?

Obviously, we'll need to try and see things from the view of the OP.....not merely our distant and limited understanding of the situation. We'll have to make some assumptions.

I think he's, as he states, uncomfortable with the massages because they're from what seems to be the same guy, rather frequently, and far more privately than he realized.....and when you combine these things with the potentially erotic nature of a massage....he's concerned there could be a sexual element, has been a sexual element, or is something sexual about this situation.

You seem to disagree. Please state whatever you think the problem is....and remember, try to do it from his POV. He's asking for help, not judgement, so that's going to require consideration of the way he sees it.

 

[Paidiske]

Ok....well sorry to cut your post short, but we need to resolve this question if we are going to avoid going in circles conversationalist.

What is the problem that is causing the OP to have discomfort?

Obviously, we'll need to try and see things from the view of the OP.....not merely our distant and limited understanding of the situation. We'll have to make some assumptions.

I think he's, as he states, uncomfortable with the massages because they're from what seems to be the same guy, rather frequently, and far more privately than he realized.....and when you combine these things with the potentially erotic nature of a massage....he's concerned there could be a sexual element, has been a sexual element, or is something sexual about this situation.

You seem to disagree. Please state whatever you think the problem is....and remember, try to do it from his POV. He's asking for help, not judgement, so that's going to require consideration of the way he sees it.

I think he's uncomfortable because he can't quite set aside his sexualisation of his wife's body, even in a situation she tells him (and he has no reason not to believe) is not at all sexual.

 

[lanceleo]

Good luck with that. Controlling marriages rarely result in happiness.

This isn't controlling but adhering to the standard of the bible. I'm appalled by the answers here that's it fine for someone's wife to be near naked and alone with a man. Don't give the devil a foothold.

 

[comana]

This isn't controlling but adhering to the standard of the bible. I'm appalled by the answers here that's it fine for someone's wife to be near naked and alone with a man. Don't give the devil a foothold.

I would give the same advice to the husband. Don’t let your insecurities ( or as you would say-the devil) get a foothold and let his imagination of what happens during a massage takeover. He and his wife need to have a conversation and come to an understanding, but he also needs to trust his wife an her judgment as well.

 

[The Liturgist]

I think he's uncomfortable because he can't quite set aside his sexualisation of his wife's body, even in a situation she tells him (and he has no reason not to believe) is not at all sexual.

A relative of mine was severely injured in a car accident when someone hit her car in the rear, and this broke her back, and was greatly assisted in recovery by an elderly Japanese martial arts practitioner, who helped her back and neck to recover. There was nothing sexual about it. It was traditional Japanese medicine which happened to work, which is related to traditional Chinese medicine in terms of its approach to massage.

Conversely, an incompetent chiropractor once injured her. Chiropractic scares me.

By the way, as a curious aside, in the US, Doctors of Osteopathy compete with Medical Doctors and are regulated by the same boards and licensing authorities and are trained according to the same standard, the only difference really being that the Osteopaths learn how to do osteopathic manual manipulation, but many of them do not do it as part of their practice, and MDs also can now learn osteopathic manual manipulation. So when going to any physician in any speciality in the US, from family medicine to cardio thoracic surgery to neurosurgery, you might encounter a DO instead of an MD. This even extends to dentists: there are DMDs, and the osteopathic equivalent is a DDS.

This is basically because the two sets of medical schools historically competed with each other and their graduates were subject to the same regulations in practice. The medical schools in the western US tended to be more Osteopathic, whereas the Ivy League schools are not.

That said, because of how strange and confusing this is, I have heard that our DOs sometimes have trouble transferring their credentials to other countries like the UK where osteopaths are just another school analogous to chiropractors or physiotherapists or deep tissue masseuses.

 

[trophy33]

People cannot even agree on what is decent and proper, these days.

And "experts" are then surprised that young people do not marry and even do not date anymore. So many needless troubles.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I think he's uncomfortable because he can't quite set aside his sexualisation of his wife's body, even in a situation she tells him (and he has no reason not to believe) is not at all sexual.

Right....you think he believes there's something sexual going on....even though there's nothing to indicate it?

 

[lanceleo]

Right....you think he believes there's something sexual going on....even though there's nothing to indicate it?

Could in the mind and if the wife goes there often enough who know what it will lead to?

 

[comana]

Could in the mind and if the wife goes there often enough who know what it will lead to?

That’s like saying that if a woman continues to see a male OBGYN who knows what it will lead to?

A professional massage at a reputable business is therapeutic not sexual.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

My wife has been going for massages for many years. I always assumed it was a spa setting with multiple people in the room. Turns out she is alone with a man for 50 minutes, door closed and shades drawn, covered by a sheet except for the body part being massaged, wearing only her bikini briefs, massage oil, everything except her bikini area and breasts are fair game for his hands directly on her skin. He is a licensed "massage therapist" and I have been assured it is completely non-sexual, just for relaxation and, as needed, working out a stiff back or sore neck, that sort of thing. This has me upset. I feel like I should have been told years ago exactly what the circumstances were. Does this make anyone else uncomfortable? Am I just too insecure? I don't believe it will lead to any actual impropriety or infidelity, but I don't like the idea of another man running his hands all over her feet, legs, thighs, shoulders etc. in private using massage oils. Thoughts?

I think the issue is your wife is getting a massage, as in, a professional who has a certification and perhaps a degree, but you are mistaking it for a “massage,” as in, that thing that spouses with no training give to their partners for 30 seconds to 5 minutes before trying to initiate sex.

What you described your wife getting is a massage, and a really normal one at that. The person giving it is not simply some guy with the time, materials, and interest, but a person who pursued higher learning and certification to become a massage therapist. Frankly, massages themselves are often uncomfortable as heck because they are working out tightness or working on a condition or injury. You’re not going for the massage, you’re going for how you feel after the massage. It’s a totally non-erotic, non-sexual, frequently a “grin and bear it because it feels good later” experience. It’s exactly like seeing a physical therapist. My job literally has a massage therapist come in once a week so we can rotate through and get 2 massages a month because workers comp claims went down.

A “massage,” while nice, doesn’t serve the same function as a massage and is not at all what one gets from a masseuse. There is often an unspoken desire for reciprocation that doesn’t exist with a masseuse. There’s an intimacy that doesn’t exist with a masseuse. It’s totally different.

And I’m saying this as a woman who gets weekly professional massages and has for the last 9 years, and someone who gets near-daily massages from my husband. One targets physical issues, one is about intimacy. Totally different in feeling, execution, setting, and expectations.

 

[Paidiske]

Right....you think he believes there's something sexual going on....even though there's nothing to indicate it?

No, and I don't know how you got that from what I said.

 

[lanceleo]

That’s like saying that if a woman continues to see a male OBGYN who knows what it will lead to?

A professional massage at a reputable business is therapeutic not sexual.

A lot of things can lurk behind that professional facade. It's not uncommon to hear of scandals from these professional joints.

 

[comana]

A lot of things can lurk behind that professional facade. It's not uncommon to hear of scandals from these professional joints.

And you think his wife is going to a shady massage business?

 

[lanceleo]

And you think his wife is going to a shady massage business?

No am saying a married woman (near nude) and a male stranger shouldn't be together alone in a closed room.

 

[comana]

No am saying a married woman (near nude) and a male stranger shouldn't be together alone in a closed room.

She is capable of assessing the situation and making a decision for herself.

 

[Ana the Ist]

No, and I don't know how you got that from what I said.

Well what you said wasn't a description of his problem....from his perspective....like I had asked for.

So I tried to translate what you wrote into a problem, as he sees it, and see if that's something you'd agree with.

I dunno why it's so hard to describe the problem as he thinks he sees it.

 

[Paidiske]

Well what you said wasn't a description of his problem....from his perspective....like I had asked for.

I basically said he's experiencing a degree of cognitive dissonance. From his perspective.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

No am saying a married woman (near nude) and a male stranger shouldn't be together alone in a closed room.

Why? Are you afraid of what a man will do with a woman when he is left unsupervised?

 

[lanceleo]

Why? Are you afraid of what a man will do with a woman when he is left unsupervised?

Yes