You Can Support Israel and not be a Dispensationalist.

[All Becomes New]

Who are the children of promise?

Paul is talking about ethnic Israelites in Romans 9. How do I know that? Because Gentiles do not give the Law, which is one thing Paul uses to identify who he is talking about and who have the promises.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Paul is talking about ethnic Israelites in Romans 9. How do I know that? Because Gentiles do not give the Law, which is one thing Paul uses to identify who he is talking about and who have the promises.

Is Abraham your father?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[All Becomes New]

Is Abraham your father?

No. It is written that the Gentiles were grafted in. I am not the son of David or the Son of Abraham. I am an heir of Christ. I share in His kingdom. I share no DNA with Abraham or with Moses or with David.

 

[ViaCrucis]

No.

If you knew just how wrong this was, and why, you'd understand that in saying this you deny the Gospel itself.

Read through Romans 4. Slowly.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[All Becomes New]

If you knew just how wrong this was, and why, you'd understand that in saying this you deny the Gospel itself.

Read through Romans 4. Slowly.

-CryptoLutheran

Christ says, "Call no man your father." Christ rebukes the Pharisees for saying they are children of Abraham. You clearly have not learned from the Pharisees mistakes.

 

[All Becomes New]

I read Romans 4, @ViaCrucis. I saw no such thing as Paul saying Gentile Christians are sons of Abraham. However, I did find this,

Romans 4:12
"And he became the father of the circumcised, who are not only circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith our father Abraham had while he was still uncircumcised."
(Emphasis mine)

 

[Guojing]

I read Romans 4, @ViaCrucis. I saw no such thing as Paul saying Gentile Christians are sons of Abraham. However, I did find this,

Romans 4:12
"And he became the father of the circumcised, who are not only circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith our father Abraham had while he was still uncircumcised."
(Emphasis mine)

I have encountered many Christians here with this kind of reasoning, example: "God doesn't owe you anything" is a destructive doctrine.

Abraham is the father of Jacob/Israel
Abraham is also our father in faith (Galatians 3:29)

Therefore, we are also part of Jacob/Israel.

They refuse to consider that Abraham had many other children other than with Sarah (Genesis 25:1-4), so they follow this illogical reasoning.

 

[Guojing]

I read Romans 4, @ViaCrucis. I saw no such thing as Paul saying Gentile Christians are sons of Abraham. However, I did find this,

Romans 4:12
"And he became the father of the circumcised, who are not only circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith our father Abraham had while he was still uncircumcised."
(Emphasis mine)

As for your point here, by Galatians 3, we are indeed the seed of Abraham, but only because we are also declared righteous by faith alone, which Abraham received before he got the mark of the circumcision in Genesis 17. He was our pattern in Genesis 15.

After Genesis 17, after God made the covenant of circumcision with him, Abraham ceased to be a pattern for us, and he now becomes the pattern for circumcised Israel.

There is a reason why James used Abraham in Genesis 22, to explain how circumcised Israel must have faith AND works, while Paul used Abraham in Genesis 15 to explain how our justification in the Body of Christ is faith alone (Romans 4:5)

 

[All Becomes New]

I have encountered many Christians here with this kind of reasoning, example: "God doesn't owe you anything" is a destructive doctrine.

Abraham is the father of Jacob/Israel
Abraham is also our father in faith (Galatians 3:29)

Therefore, we are also part of Jacob/Israel.

They refuse to consider that Abraham had many other children other than with Sarah (Genesis 25:1-4), so they follow this illogical reasoning.

Name a scholar that says we are part of Jacob specifically.

You take Galatians out of context. The whole point of Galatians 3:29 is that we are heirs of Christ, not the physical descendants of Abraham.

 

[Guojing]

Name a scholar that says we are part of Jacob specifically.

I agree with you.

There is a reason why the nation of Israel needed to have 3 fathers

1. Abraham is their father whom received the mark of circumcision to separate them from the rest of the world (Genesis 17:10-14, Romans 11:1)
2. Isaac is their father whom was the child of promise (Romans 9:7-9)
3. Jacob is their father whom was the elect one of God (Romans 9:11-13).

For us gentiles in the Body of Christ,

1. Abraham is certainly our father in faith (Galatians 3:29),
2. We are linked to Isaac only in the sense of also being children of promise, like he is (Galatians 4:28), but he is not our father in any way

But here is the kicker, we have zero connection with Jacob, according to Paul at least. And Israel came from Jacob.

You take Galatians out of context. The whole point of Galatians 3:29 is that we are heirs of Christ, not the physical descendants of Abraham.

I didn't say we are the physical descendants of Abraham, read properly.

We are the seed of Abraham, because we received the same justification by faith alone, as he did in Genesis 15:6. He is our father in justification by faith alone.

That is what that verse literally states

 

[ViaCrucis]

I read Romans 4, @ViaCrucis. I saw no such thing as Paul saying Gentile Christians are sons of Abraham. However, I did find this,

Romans 4:12
"And he became the father of the circumcised, who are not only circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith our father Abraham had while he was still uncircumcised."
(Emphasis mine)

So you weren't paying attention. That's why I said read it slowly.

"Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah's womb. No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification." - Romans 4:9-25

Did you catch any of that?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[All Becomes New]

So you weren't paying attention. That's why I said read it slowly.

"Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah's womb. No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification." - Romans 4:9-25

Did you catch any of that?

-CryptoLutheran

That is about the thrid time I have read this in my discussion with you. Nothing about this says that the promises no longer belong to Israel. Paul unpacks this more later in his letter.

 

[Guojing]

Is Abraham your father?

-CryptoLutheran

You are also reasoning the following?

Abraham is the father of Jacob/Israel
Abraham is also our father in faith (Galatians 3:29)

Therefore, we are also part of Jacob/Israel.

 

[ViaCrucis]

You are also reasoning the following?

Abraham is the father of Jacob/Israel
Abraham is also our father in faith (Galatians 3:29)

Therefore, we are also part of Jacob/Israel.

That Gentiles, in Christ, are included in Israel is not derived from Abraham being our father in faith; but rather from the explicit words of Scripture that Gentiles are, in Christ, included in Israel. Wild olive branches being grafted, no longer being strangers and aliens to the commonwealth of Israel.

The argument about Abraham is that the promises to Abraham are that he would be the father of many nations through the promised Seed, Jesus Christ, and all who are in Christ are heirs of the promises to Abraham; Jew and Gentile. Jesus is the promise made to Abraham, and all who are in Jesus are heirs of that promise, by which Abraham inherits the world; whose descendants would be as numerous as the stars in the sky and the sand on the seashore. Paul looks back to before the giving of the Law and the establishment of the Covenant at Sinai, to Abraham's faith; and all who have faith as Abraham had faith, whose trust is in the Person and Work of Jesus Christ, are justified even as Abraham was justified--and the giving of the Law was not to make sinners just but to increase the trespass. The Law condemning both Jew and Gentile for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God; God having consigned all to disobedience in order that He might have mercy on all. Mercy through Jesus Christ, for Jew and Gentile, united together in Jesus Christ. Without distinction. The promises made point toward Christ, Christ is the fulfillment of all God's promises; and in Christ all who belong to Christ are heirs of those promises.

The point of the promise was not a piece of real estate in the Levant, the point of the promise is Jesus Christ--in whom and by whom are all things, by whom and for whom were all things made, and by whom and for whom all things are united together so that all things might be summed up in Him.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

That is about the thrid time I have read this in my discussion with you. Nothing about this says that the promises no longer belong to Israel. Paul unpacks this more later in his letter.

You just got done saying the promises are not for Christians, and that Abraham isn't your father. But the whole point Paul is making is that it isn't about whether is a physical descendant of Abraham or not; it's not about whether one is a Jew (circumcised, adherent to the Law), but is about faith. Abraham had faith and it was credited to him as righteousness, all who have faith in the Messiah share in the promises to Abraham; and it is through Christ that Abraham is blessed and the father of many nations--for circumcised and uncircumcised, Jew and Gentile, without distinction.

To be Israel is not about whose grandson you are, but faith and covenant.

The promise that remains for unbelieving Israel is simply the proclamation of the Gospel which is for all sinners. St. Paul indicates his hope in a time when all of his kinsmen will come to faith--but he doesn't elaborate how, nor does he appeal to unfulfilled promises about land in the Levant.

When the Lord Christ returns, He does not come to restore a kingdom in the Levant, or to build a temple (He is the Temple, His kingdom is of the heavens, an everlasting dominion which He received when He ascended and was seated at the right hand of the Father). When He returns it is as Judge of the quick and the dead; the dead shall be raised, God makes all things new, and there is life unto the ages of the ages, world without end. As C.S. Lewis put it, when the Playwright steps on the stage, the play is over. When the Lord returns the theater of history is concluded, the whole divine and redemptive drama that has been happening since Eden has finished. Death is no more, Life reigns forever. Jesus Christ is Lord.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[All Becomes New]

You just got done saying the promises are not for Christians,

No, I did not say that. There are promises for Gentile Christians. It's just that there are still remaining promises for ethnic Israel.

The promise that remains for unbelieving Israel is simply the proclamation of the Gospel which is for all sinners.

Then why does Paul say, "To them (Israelites) belong the promises"?

St. Paul indicates his hope in a time when all of his kinsmen will come to faith--but he doesn't elaborate how, nor does he appeal to unfulfilled promises about land in the Levant.

Correct. That is talked about elsewhere in the Bible.

 

[lismore]

When the Lord Christ returns, He does not come to restore a kingdom in the Levant, or to build a temple (He is the Temple, His kingdom is of the heavens, an everlasting dominion which He received when He ascended and was seated at the right hand of the Father).

Hello! I would draw your attention to this passage:

Acts 1: 6-10 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Here the Apostles ask Jesus if he is at that time going to restore the Kingdom to Israel, they already know from the OT prophets (for example Micah 4) that God is going to restore the Kingdom to Israel. Jesus replies that the time of the restoration of the Kingdom to Israel is known only to the Father, but in the meantime they have work to do. After the Lord is taken up into heaven the angel appears and reiterates the message of the prophet Zechariah, the same Jesus will return physically in the same way that he has gone, his feet will touch the Mount of Olives, East of Jerusalem.

God Bless You

 

[Guojing]

That Gentiles, in Christ, are included in Israel is not derived from Abraham being our father in faith; but rather from the explicit words of Scripture that Gentiles are, in Christ, included in Israel. Wild olive branches being grafted, no longer being strangers and aliens to the commonwealth of Israel.

-CryptoLutheran

Most people don't really read Romans 11:17 properly

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

We are not grafted in Israel, we are grafted into God among them and with them.

That applies to Ephesians 2:11-13 as well.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Hello! I would draw your attention to this passage:

Acts 1: 6-10 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Here the Apostles ask Jesus if he is at that time going to restore the Kingdom to Israel, they already know from the OT prophets (for example Micah 4) that God is going to restore the Kingdom to Israel. Jesus replies that the time of the restoration of the Kingdom to Israel is known only to the Father, but in the meantime they have work to do. After the Lord is taken up into heaven the angel appears and reiterates the message of the prophet Zechariah, the same Jesus will return physically in the same way that he has gone, his feet will touch the Mount of Olives, East of Jerusalem.

God Bless You

In Acts 1 what hadn't yet happened?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Then why does Paul say, "To them (Israelites) belong the promises"?

What does Paul then say in Romans 9:6-8?

-CryptoLutheran