Pope Francis: Diverse religious identities are ‘a gift from God’

[chevyontheriver]

I believe Pope Francis is referring to the different religious orders in the Catholic Church which
have different spiritual aspects.

As an example, Discalced Carmelites are not the same as Franciscans and the diversity between
the orders work for Catholics seeking various forms of spirituality.

That would be fine, wouldn't it. Carmelites and Franciscans and even Benedictines agree on how many gods there are - one God and one God only. And they agree on the number of persons in the Godhead - three and only three. Jesuits might agree. But Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists wouldn't.

So was he really speaking of the difference between Carmelites and Franciscans or Hindus and Muslims?

 

[fide]

I believe Pope Francis is referring to the different religious orders in the Catholic Church which
have different spiritual aspects.

As an example, Discalced Carmelites are not the same as Franciscans and the diversity between
the orders work for Catholics seeking various forms of spirituality.

The OP (post #1 above) has the context of his very troubling words clearly stated:

Pope Francis praised cultural and religious diversity as “a gift from God” in a video message to an interreligious youth conference on Tuesday.

“Contemplate the diversity of your traditions as a wealth, a wealth willed by God,” the pope told young adults gathered in Tirana, Albania, for the Mediterranean Encounters 2024.

“Unity is not uniformity,” he added, “and the diversity of our cultural and religious identities is a gift from God.”

Jim, it is understandable that a faithful Catholic wants to somehow justify the words and actions of this very problematic pope of our Church. He is where he is by at least the permissive will of God, by that does not insure that he will stand tall on the Day of Judgment.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The OP (post #1 above) has the context of his very troubling words clearly stated:

Jim, it is understandable that a faithful Catholic wants to somehow justify the words and actions of this very problematic pope of our Church. He is where he is by at least the permissive will of God, by that does not insure that he will stand tall on the Day of Judgment.

From what I see in the video, he's speaking to Catholics. A statue of the Blessed Mother is in the video.

I agree, he's talking about the diversity in cultures, not religious orders, on that point I stand corrected.

But is what he said so wrong that some think he's heretical?

 

[chevyontheriver]

From what I see in the video, he's speaking to Catholics. A statue of the Blessed Mother is in the video.

I agree, he's talking about the diversity in cultures, not religious orders, on that point I stand corrected.

But is what he said so wrong that some think he's heretical?

I don't think he is pronouncing Church teaching but instead having a personal opinion.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

It would be good for folks here to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Here's what it says;

The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:



All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:



Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:



Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:



Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

 

[JimR-OCDS]

"No fault of their own" can be many various reasons that we as Catholics need to understand.

If you're born into a culture which is not Christian, just because you might hear with your physical
ears about the Gospel, you haven't heard with your soul. Also, the behavior you may have encountered
from so-called Christians, may be the reason for turning you away and blocked all hearing in the soul about Christ.

Pope Francis is not wrong, nor is he speaking against the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Bishop Barron confirms this.

Watch the video:

 

[Solo81]

It would be good for folks here to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Here's what it says;

The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:



All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:



Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:



Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:



Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

I was going to cite this in response to the upset over his words to the people of Singapore, on a different thread but it would have taken far too long to type out. Maybe copy + paste is the way...

The Catholic perspective is quite broad and sheds fresh light on many of PF's references to "brotherhood".

 

[concretecamper]

It would be good for folks here to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Here's what it says;

The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:



All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:



Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:



Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:



Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

Thank you for sharing with us a couple of paragraphs from the CCC that does not say that non Catholics or non Christians are saved.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Thank you for sharing with us a couple of paragraphs from the CCC that does not say that non Catholics or non Christians are saved.

Salvation is up tp God, not your or me.

 

[concretecamper]

Salvation is up tp God, not your or me.

For sure. I was just commenting on the post that brought to light nothing.

 

[fide]

Thank you for sharing with us a couple of paragraphs from the CCC that does not say that non Catholics or non Christians are saved.

They certainly say that such salvation is possible, and also that the mandate to the Church to "make disciples" remains:

847 .This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

Our present pope seems to have overlooked 848.

 

[concretecamper]

They certainly say that such salvation is possible, and also that the mandate to the Church to "make disciples" remains:

Our present pope seems to have overlooked 848.

One has to wonder why didn't the CCC come right out and say it is probable. Implying it is only possible seems like false eccumanism to me.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Thank you for sharing with us a couple of paragraphs from the CCC that does not say that non Catholics or non Christians are saved.

You must have missed this part:

Bold is my emphasis.

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

 

[concretecamper]

You must have missed this part:

Bold is my emphasis.

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

There is that gray word again MAY

One has to wonder, why didn't the CCC used the word "Can"?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

There is that gray word again MAY

Because only God can give salvation to those whom he pleases, not us.

 

[concretecamper]

Because only God can give salvation to those whom he pleases, not us.

But the CCC is clear on how Catholic Christians "Can" receive salvation. How come the CCC used "may" for all others?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

But the CCC is clear on how Catholic Christians Can receive salvation. How come the CCC used may for all others?

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.

 

[concretecamper]

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.

This paragraph is nothing new. All it says is God can lead anyone to faith. However, there's a lot more that happens after faith.

Curious how the paragraph doesn't say lead those ignorant people to salvation.

Don't add meaning to the CCC

We should read the CCC as a whole. Read the paragraphs you quoted on light of the rest of the CCC where it says Baptism and the Eucharist are both needed for salvation.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

This paragraph is nothing new. All it says is God can lead anyone to faith. However, there's a lot more that happens after faith.

Curious how the paragraph doesn't say lead those ignorant people to salvation.

Don't add meaning to the CCC

We should read the CCC as a whole. Read the paragraphs you quoted on light of the rest of the CCC where it says Baptism and the Eucharist are both needed for salvation.

So, you want to support your own interpretation instead of the Catholic Church's, including Pope Francis.

Fine, argue with yourself.

 

[KathrynAragon]

But the CCC is clear on how Catholic Christians "Can" receive salvation. How come the CCC used "may" for all others?

Quotes please. Thanks.