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Schools giving kids sex changes without parental knowledge

Bradskii

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Okay, bear with me folks.
We aren't making this up. You have been given three examples of him using the same line. Whether you want to to claim that he's using hyperbole or exaggerating for effect makes no difference. He is literally saying that schools will organise physical gender surgery for children. That he is lying is absolutely undeniable.

I seriously doubt that not that many people are really that dumb to think this will happen during a school day - but the figure won't be zero in any case. But schools cannot organise any medical procedures for children. He is fear mongering. And this desperate argument that hey, no-one would really believe him, simply doesn't fly.

Nobody with an IQ above ambient room temperature would think that Mexico would pay for a border wall. Or that it's in any way possible to deport 11 million immigrants. So why do you think he lies about things like this?
 
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ThatRobGuy

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I agree with this. No one has any business outing anyone because that's completely uncalled for and can lead to violence.

It's about having a respect for others privacy and safety.
Privacy does have limits, if it's a case where a child is under some form of mental duress (that's associated with high risks of self-harm, which certainly applies to this situation), and the best approach is some form of counseling or medical care, the parents would be the ones legally and financially responsible for that, correct?

If there were some sort of other mental health related issue (out of the child's control), given that the school counselor can't be the one to take them to a licensed healthcare professional, the parents would need to be brought into the loop eventually, correct?

If someone's going to say in one instance "trans affirming care is life saving medical care", and if that is truly is the best approach, then it would seem that keeping that information from the specific entity(s) legally capable of signing off starting the process would counterproductive to that, would it not?


What would you see as the absolute best case scenario of an outcome in a "keep the information hidden from the parents" approach? As far as I can tell, about the only possible outcome of that is the minor "laying low and trying to live a double life" until they turn 18 and can legally pursue the process without parental sign off.
 
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Bradskii

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I've seen reported "desistance rates", and they vary widely due some key differences (and different types of methodology flaws) in the studies.
I didn't read your post because there were no links to any figures. Which is what I asked you to provide. And I'm not going to do it for you.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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I didn't read your post because there were no links to any figures. Which is what I asked you to provide. And I'm not going to do it for you.
These two article discuss them.


As I noted, the various studies on the matter produced wildly different results do to very different (and sometimes flawed) methodologies.

So, on the high end 94%

On the low end 2%
 
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Bradskii

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These two article discuss them.


As I noted, the various studies on the matter produced wildly different results do to very different (and sometimes flawed) methodologies.

So, on the high end 94%

On the low end 2%
The link took me to a paper that was discussing 12 year olds. Hardly what we are looking for as we're looking at sex changes.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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The link took me to a paper that was discussing 12 year olds. Hardly what we are looking for as we're looking at sex changes.
A) did you look at both links provided?

B) That's shifting the goal posts with regards to the topic of school staff secretly helping to conceal certain information from parents and facilitate the first step of the transition process (which is the social transition).

Hormones and and puberty blockers are also some of the things that have been suggested as well.

The related subject I've been replying in reference to was the assertion school staff should be keeping gender identity issues a secret from parents. (which is, in reality, helping them to do step #1 of the process).

The reason why the contextual differences between the study outcomes is important is because if there is any noteworthy desistance rate within the framework that the US is applying it, perhaps outside influences shouldn't be defaulting to nudging them in that direction without parental knowledge.


If the US (both the public, and the health professionals) had the same rigorous standards as places like Sweden and Norway regarding such matters, then I'd likely have no qualms with accepting the premise of a "Only 2% desistance rate" and generally viewing it as a "pros vastly outweigh the cons" type of situation when they opt to move forward with it.

But that's not what's happening here in the US. We're implementing things like the "FASST" protocol (it stands for First Assessment Single Session Triage), and clinics are offering services like this:

In most cases your clinician will be able to prescribe hormones the same day as your first visit. No letter from a mental health provider is required.

If you’re starting gender affirming hormone therapy, you’ll have an initial appointment with baseline lab work (blood draw) and then follow-up appointments. *


...and if a young person says "I'm trans" on Monday, if parents aren't 100% convinced, question the original Dutch Protocol (which even the Dutch themselves have pumped the brakes on) and FASST protocol, or aren't entirely on board with any and all measures proposed in the name of "affirmation" by Wednesday, they're being given the "you can have a dead son or an alive daughter" emotional blackmail tactics.


People want to implement a more "take the minor's statement at face-value, and fast-track it", and then pretend the data from the Swedish studies (which involves a much more strict process and thorough vetting out period) will be in any way applicable.


Or, if you want to see how other countries are handling such matters:
 
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Bradskii

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That's shifting the goal posts...
Nope. The discussion is Trump saying that schoolkids will have surgery organised by their schools. Please concentrate on that aspect and show me some figures.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Nope. The discussion is Trump saying that schoolkids will have surgery organised by their schools. Please concentrate on that aspect and show me some figures.
LOL, c'mon, you were perfectly willing to engage in the related extraneous discussion before. And even ask me for numbers surrounding it. Now that I've provided the numbers, all of the sudden it's "time to stay laser focused on Trump's lie from post #1 and only that"

There are no figures surrounding surgery facilitated by schools, because it's not happening because, as I noted all the way back on page one, Trump's being dishonest. Perhaps you scrolled past it.


Gee, I wonder why we can't have an honest debate about anything anymore.

Perhaps every debate should just start and end with "There's an orange man who's bad and orange and bad and also a man, not to mention a bad orange man" and we can call it day a there.

Clearly the position is that as long as Trump exists, the left's positions on everything are entirely above criticism and not worth discussing. (unless it's a sidebar supporting the arguments of the people most opposed to the bad orange man, those are okay...but anything that attempts to discuss topics with any nuance that may actually support a centrist position is just "whataboutism" or "bOThSiDEs")
 
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Bradskii

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LOL, c'mon, you were perfectly willing to engage in the related extraneous discussion before. And even ask me for numbers surrounding it. Now that I've provided the numbers, all of the sudden it's "time to stay laser focused on Trump's lie from post #1 and only that"
It's about surgical transitions. If you want to talk about the fact that quite a few people decide to call themselves Mike instead of Mary and then change their mind some time later, then go ahead. But I'm really not interested.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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But I'm really not interested.
Then why did you engage in that part of the discussion in the first place? If I would've known you weren't interested in that part of the discussion, I would've simply scrolled past your reply instead of getting the links you requested.

But, perhaps you should be interested in some of the more nuanced aspects of the discussion, because in those aspects, lies the explanations and rationale for why so many people are willing to lap up lies without question.

Like with most topics, if one "tribe" is gleefully willing to accept the most extreme negative narrative about another "tribe", it's probably best to understand what chain of events happened that put them in that mindset. And as superficial and "convenient" as it may be to quickly chalk it up to "they're just brainwashed bigoted simpletons who got duped by a demagogue", that's not an honest assessment of the situation.

The reality is "bOTh sIDeS" have given the other multiple reasons not to trust them.

The best piece of advice would probably be not to prove the other side's slippery slope argument for them, that doesn't help. For instance, if something currently happening now would've been accused of being a "slippery slope" 10 years ago if someone predicted it, probably best not to gaslight and pretend it's "always been the rational position" now.
 
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Bradskii

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Then why did you engage in that part of the discussion in the first place? If I would've known you weren't interested in that part of the discussion, I would've simply scrolled past your reply instead of getting the links you requested.
If you didn't know then I hope I've explained it well enough so that you do now.
 
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loveofourlord

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I agree with this. No one has any business outing anyone because that's completely uncalled for and can lead to violence.

It's about having a respect for others privacy and safety.

I would even argue that even if the kid isn't being abused it's wrong like you said, it's the kids decision when and how to tell their parents.
 
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RileyG

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I would even argue that even if the kid isn't being abused it's wrong like you said, it's the kids decision when and how to tell their parents.
Agreed.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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I would even argue that even if the kid isn't being abused it's wrong like you said, it's the kids decision when and how to tell their parents.
You're giving children far too much agency.

This isn't something like a diary where they're keeping secrets about which person they have a crush on at school. This is a topic for which, within the US social construct and discourse, parents are being expected to "pursue a certain path" once the child makes a declaration.

You have to at least be willing to acknowledge that there's a much bigger "ask" happening with this topic.

So a parent is raising male child as a boy for 13 years, calling them "him", etc... and because the child tells a school counselor one day "I feel like a girl", the parents are basically expected to uproot their whole reality and be "cool with it" like the flip of a switch, else "they don't care about their child".

You honestly don't see why that can put a chip on some peoples' shoulders?


As I noted before (in a reply to another poster in here who seemed very interested in this facet of the conversation, but then said they were not interested after presented with the numbers, so I have no reason to expect them to chime in as a reply to this given their stated disinterest), we talk about the topic within the context of countries that have very strict designations and requirements, but then want to apply the standard of the very lax interpretations that lead to the high regret rates.


Looking at studies involving countries with strict "barriers to entry" (for lack of a better term), and then trying to apply their results to the US, who is operating off the lax standard of "if someone says their X, then they're X, questioning them is offensive" isn't a valid approach.

For instance, in Scandinavia , in order for one to change their gender (surgery, hormones or not), they have to be evaluated and diagnosed by a professional as having gender dysphoria, been identifying that way for multiple years, and the sign off process involves a review by both a doctor and a medical review board. That's a far cry from the "standard" that some want in the US. Which is "if a person says they're X, then they're X, and you'd better not question it, else you're a bigot".


It's odd, progressives in the US have no issue saying "we should be like Denmark" for a litany of other topics, but when you get to Denmark's requirements for this topic (you must be 18, you must have a medical professional sign-off, you must complete a six month "self reflection period"), all of the sudden Denmark doesn't know what they're talking about anymore.


I think part of the reason so many of the western European countries (that are far more progressive than us on most things) tend to have a more cautious approach for this topic (as well as a few other topics that don't need to be brought up) is precisely because they have a "healthcare as a public service" model instead of a "for profit" healthcare industry that acts a political lever to be pulled.
 
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And you wanted to know if he really meant it? Well, here's yet another quote from him from the weekend: Trump Doubles Down On Bogus Gender-Affirming Care Claim His Own Campaign Can't Back Up

“Can you imagine you’re a parent and your son leaves the house and you say, ‘Jimmy, I love you so much, go have a good day at school’ and your son comes back with a brutal operation,” Trump told the crowd in Mosinee, Wisconsin.

Why is he lying? Are some of his supporters so ill informed that they think it's actually true? Why do you accept this?

This. Is. Not. Normal.
He’s pandering for votes. He also over exaggerates things.

It’s just his personality.

At his age, I highly doubt he will change. It will take an act of God to change him, no pun intended.
 
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Bradskii

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He’s pandering for votes. He also over exaggerates things.

It’s just his personality.

At his age, I highly doubt he will change. It will take an act of God to change him, no pun intended.
I completely agree. I understand why he says such things. But I can't understand why people listen to him and think 'Yeah, he's right!'
 
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loveofourlord

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You're giving children far too much agency.

This isn't something like a diary where they're keeping secrets about which person they have a crush on at school. This is a topic for which, within the US social construct and discourse, parents are being expected to "pursue a certain path" once the child makes a declaration.

You have to at least be willing to acknowledge that there's a much bigger "ask" happening with this topic.

So a parent is raising male child as a boy for 13 years, calling them "him", etc... and because the child tells a school counselor one day "I feel like a girl", the parents are basically expected to uproot their whole reality and be "cool with it" like the flip of a switch, else "they don't care about their child".

You honestly don't see why that can put a chip on some peoples' shoulders?


As I noted before (in a reply to another poster in here who seemed very interested in this facet of the conversation, but then said they were not interested after presented with the numbers, so I have no reason to expect them to chime in as a reply to this given their stated disinterest), we talk about the topic within the context of countries that have very strict designations and requirements, but then want to apply the standard of the very lax interpretations that lead to the high regret rates.


Looking at studies involving countries with strict "barriers to entry" (for lack of a better term), and then trying to apply their results to the US, who is operating off the lax standard of "if someone says their X, then they're X, questioning them is offensive" isn't a valid approach.

For instance, in Scandinavia , in order for one to change their gender (surgery, hormones or not), they have to be evaluated and diagnosed by a professional as having gender dysphoria, been identifying that way for multiple years, and the sign off process involves a review by both a doctor and a medical review board. That's a far cry from the "standard" that some want in the US. Which is "if a person says they're X, then they're X, and you'd better not question it, else you're a bigot".


It's odd, progressives in the US have no issue saying "we should be like Denmark" for a litany of other topics, but when you get to Denmark's requirements for this topic (you must be 18, you must have a medical professional sign-off, you must complete a six month "self reflection period"), all of the sudden Denmark doesn't know what they're talking about anymore.


I think part of the reason so many of the western European countries (that are far more progressive than us on most things) tend to have a more cautious approach for this topic (as well as a few other topics that don't need to be brought up) is precisely because they have a "healthcare as a public service" model instead of a "for profit" healthcare industry that acts a political lever to be pulled.

No there isn't, it's the same thing as always, let the kids make their decisions and grow up, not try to force the kid into what you want them to be. Or do you think parents have a right to try to push their kids from being trans or LGBTQ like it's their right or decision on it? Woud you be fine if instead of something kids don't have choice on, it was, "Does a muslim parent have the right to know their kid is Christian and then try to force them to be muslim, a parent has the right to know on these things."

And guess what, thats what happens in the US, the only thing allowed is puberty blockers wich guess WHAT allow for that self reflection before their bodies are irevocably changed by puberty. you don't have a right to demand or determine what a kid makes of their life.
 
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RileyG

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I completely agree. I understand why he says such things. But I can't understand why people listen to him and think 'Yeah, he's right!'
Eh? I really can’t give you an answer why. Boggles my mind, too.
 
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KCfromNC

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Okay, bear with me folks. I'm going to ask you to do something which may be difficult since you obviously don't do it often, at least when it comes to Trump. I'm going to ask you to think.
Aren't posts supposed to address the content of what people have written rather than the people involved?
 
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ThatRobGuy

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No there isn't, it's the same thing as always, let the kids make their decisions and grow up, not try to force the kid into what you want them to be. Or do you think parents have a right to try to push their kids from being trans or LGBTQ like it's their right or decision on it? Woud you be fine if instead of something kids don't have choice on, it was, "Does a muslim parent have the right to know their kid is Christian and then try to force them to be muslim, a parent has the right to know on these things."

And guess what, thats what happens in the US, the only thing allowed is puberty blockers wich guess WHAT allow for that self reflection before their bodies are irevocably changed by puberty. you don't have a right to demand or determine what a kid makes of their life.
The puberty blockers aren't without risks. (for the record)
Puberty blockers may have negative impact on bone mineral density, which may not be fully reversible, with an associated risk of osteoporosis and fractures (Biggs, 2021; Hembree et al., 2017). Recently, findings from animal studies have increased concerns that puberty blockers may negatively and irreversibly impact brain development due to critical time-windows of brain development. In one study on rams, long-term spatial memory deficits induced by use of puberty blockers in the peripubertal period were found to persist into adulthood (Hough et al., 2017).

there are no proven methods of fertility preservation (Bangalore Krishna et al., 2019). Surgeries, such as gonadectomies and most genital surgeries, will result in permanent sterility. These impaired fertility and sterility outcomes are important because, firstly, as Cheng et al. (2019) reported, the widespread assumption that many transgender people do not want to have biological children is not supported by several recent studies. Secondly, children as young as ten, who do not have capacity for informed consent, are starting a treatment course that will likely render them infertile or sterile and this raises complex bioethical issues (Baron & Dierckxsens, 2021).




Secondly, the reason why the Scandinavian countries have stricter requirements is because that while people try to give kids enough room to "make their own decisions and their own mistakes", they still acknowledge the nature of youth and apply limits to that concept. Which is why we wouldn't let a 14 year old with weight issues (that's causing them mental duress) to acquire Ozempic on their own without parental sign-off.


Thirdly, what if the child "confiding in their counselor that they're trans, and my parents will beat me if they find out" isn't actually trans? What if that declaration is stemming from a mental health disorder (that the parents were already aware of, but the school counselor was not) and it was a sign of an impending mental health episode on the horizon that the parents would need to be made aware of so they can contact the doctor and get an adjustment made to the meds?


For instance, patients with both severe bipolar disorder or schizophrenia can experience rapid alterations in gender identity as a symptom of an impending period of acute psychosis. (the same is true to a lesser degree with people on the autistic spectrum during anxiety episodes)

Per the NIH links I provided above:
The authors present clear pattern of gender identity variations coinciding solely with psychotic episodes during schizoaffective disorder, bipolar type. The authors postulate that gender dysphoria can co-occur with other psychiatric disorders or may correspond only during acute psychosis. The distinction is critical to make to ensure accurate diagnoses regarding whether gender dysphoria is a symptom only during an acute psychotic illness, or if there is a longer-standing concern as to the patient’s gender identity and assignment.

The case study they cite:
In this case report, the patient will be referred to without using pronouns given fluctuations in pronouns over time. A 35-year-old Hispanic person, assigned male at birth (AMAB), identified as female upon admission. The patient denied any significant or contributing past medical history. The patient had a past psychiatric history of schizoaffective disorder, bipolar type, and presented involuntarily to the psychiatric inpatient unit for bizarre behavior and hallucinations for the past three months. Per the patient’s mother’s report, the patient had been refusing to eat, was easily agitated, and was exhibiting signs of mania, including decreased sleep, and increased sexual behavior. The patient reported medication nonadherence for an unknown amount of time. The patient denied the previous existence of a female identity. Upon admission, the patient presented in masculine clothing and identified as a female, requesting that staff use she/her/hers pronouns.

Now, what if that was occurring with a 15 year old who wasn't taking their medication? (and the counselor was unaware of their condition and history)
They show up to the councilors office, proclaim that they're trans, and report that their parents threatened to beat them for it? Is the counselor doing them any favors by concealing that information?

Given that the prevalence of schizophrenia 50 times higher in youths (ages 10-17) who identify as gender nonconforming...the potential concern I laid out above is a completely valid one.
 
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