The Four Horsemen and Palestine

[Ed Parenteau]

He only meant to say that God's promises are by faith. By faith, we are included as recipients of the promises. We are not the replacement of the Jews. You'll see in the coming days.

True, "included" with the Jews under a promised new covenant that "replaced" the old covenant. We are under that new covenant by being grafted in as fellow citizens with the Jews as the true Israel of God. After all, without faith it is impossible to please God. And since all of the promises of God are fulfilled in Christ, what promises could possibly be left? Especially in light of Galatians chapter 4.

In the following, earthly Jerusalem would be cast out along with her children who are slaves to the law. And they would never be heirs with the Jerusalem which is above which is the church, the new Jerusalem.
Galatians 4:
21Tell me, those wishing to be under the Law, do you do not listen to the Law? 22For it has been written that Abraham had two sons, one of the slave woman and one of the free. 23But indeed, the one of the slave woman has been born according to flesh, but the one of the free, through the promise, 24which things are allegorized, for these are two covenants: one indeed from Mount Sinai, begetting unto slavery, which is Hagar. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, who is our mother. 27For it has been written:

“Rejoice O barren woman,
the one not bearing;
break forth and call aloud,
the one not travailing;
because many more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her having the husband.”

28Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But just as at that time the one having been born according to flesh was persecuting the one born according to Spirit, so also it is now.

30But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman will never inherit along with the son of the free.” 31So then, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The Palestinian flag is based on the Pan-Arab colors that originated in the Arab nationalist revolts under the Ottoman Empire. Under late Ottoman rule a number of people were not well treated, most famously the Armenians (the Armenian Genocide). When the Ottoman's were defeated in WWI the Entente powers carved up the Ottoman Empire in a number of Arab states. As Arab nationalism continued, those pan-Arab nationalist colors were adopted by the emerging post-Ottoman Arab states.

The pan-Arab colors have their own meanings, as this Wikipedia article indicates:

"The black represents the Black Standard used by the Rashidun and Abbasid Caliphates, while white was the dynastic color of the Umayyad Caliphate.[3] Green is a color associated with the primary religion of Islam – and therefore also a color representative of the caliphates.[4][5] Green is also identified as the color of the Fatimid Caliphate by some modern sources,[3][6] despite their dynastic color having been white.[7][8][9] Finally, red was the Hashemite dynastic color. The four colors also derived their potency from a verse by 14th century Arab poet Safi al-Din al-Hilli: "White are our acts, black our battles, green our fields, and red our swords."[10]" - Pan-Arab colors - Wikipedia

Any association between the pan-Arab colors and the Four Horsemen exists entirely in the imagination.

And it seems, in this case, it is a politically motivated way of attacking the genuine concerns over the situation that has been going on in Gaza over the last year.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Barraco]

The Palestinian flag is based on the Pan-Arab colors that originated in the Arab nationalist revolts under the Ottoman Empire. Under late Ottoman rule a number of people were not well treated, most famously the Armenians (the Armenian Genocide). When the Ottoman's were defeated in WWI the Entente powers carved up the Ottoman Empire in a number of Arab states. As Arab nationalism continued, those pan-Arab nationalist colors were adopted by the emerging post-Ottoman Arab states.

The pan-Arab colors have their own meanings, as this Wikipedia article indicates:

"The black represents the Black Standard used by the Rashidun and Abbasid Caliphates, while white was the dynastic color of the Umayyad Caliphate.[3] Green is a color associated with the primary religion of Islam – and therefore also a color representative of the caliphates.[4][5] Green is also identified as the color of the Fatimid Caliphate by some modern sources,[3][6] despite their dynastic color having been white.[7][8][9] Finally, red was the Hashemite dynastic color. The four colors also derived their potency from a verse by 14th century Arab poet Safi al-Din al-Hilli: "White are our acts, black our battles, green our fields, and red our swords."[10]" - Pan-Arab colors - Wikipedia

Any association between the pan-Arab colors and the Four Horsemen exists entirely in the imagination.

And it seems, in this case, it is a politically motivated way of attacking the genuine concerns over the situation that has been going on in Gaza over the last year.

-CryptoLutheran

Thanks CryptoLutheran, that was very informative. I am just learning about the post Ottoman roots of the flags. I don’t think the colors are a coincidence. Did you know the Ottaman Turks also considered themselves the rightful heirs and successors of the Roman Empire?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Thanks CryptoLutheran, that was very informative. I am just learning about the post Ottoman roots of the flags. I don’t think the colors are a coincidence.

What makes you think it's anything more than a coincidence? There's nothing in Revelation 6 to connect the horsemen to Arab nationalism.

Did you know the Ottaman Turks also considered themselves the rightful heirs and successors of the Roman Empire?

So did the Russians.

After the fall of the Roman Empire in 1453 the Ottomans, in taking Constantinople, took upon themselves the mantle as the successors of Rome. In Russia, the emperor styled himself Tzar (Caesar) and that Moscow would become the Third Rome (Constantinople having been the Second Rome), and thus the Russian Empire conceived of itself as the heirs of Rome.

After the fall of Constantinople we could say there were three Romes: Russia, the Ottomans, and the Holy Roman Empire. All would have regarded themselves as successors of the legacy of Rome.

Of course the Russian Empire ended with the Revolution in 1917 which created the Soviet Union. The Ottoman Empire ended with its defeat after the end of World War I in 1922. And the Holy Roman Empire ceased to exist in 1806 due to the Napoleonic Wars.

Rome's memory has certainly entertained and fascinated people, right into the modern era. But so have other ancient great powers, like Egypt and China.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Barraco]

What makes you think it's anything more than a coincidence? There's nothing in Revelation 6 to connect the horsemen to Arab nationalism.

Following Revelation 12 through its logical conclusion suggests it could indeed be associated with Arab nationalism. I’ll explain.

The dragon is the chronology of Gentile empires that have ruled over both the Jews and Jerusalem, making them a vassal state. They are as follows:

1. Babylon
2. Persia
3. Macedonia
4. Egypt
5. Seleucia
6. Rome/Constantinople
7. Britain

Daniel 7 says the ten horns come up after the beast, so we would expect to see whoever controlled Jerusalem and the Jews after the Ottoman Empire collapsed. Britain took possession of Palestine in September 1918 after the Battle of Megiddo. Britain then gave the Mandate of Palestine over to the creation of a two-state solution between Israel and Jordan.

I have to go to an appointment, but I’ll add more later if I get the chance.

So did the Russians.

Yes, but Moscow never ruled Jerusalem. Daniel 9:24 state that the seventy sevens were for both the Jews and the holy city. Anything outside of those two conditions is irrelevant to the prophecy.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Following Revelation 12 through its logical conclusion suggests it could indeed be associated with Arab nationalism. I’ll explain.

The dragon is the chronology of Gentile empires that have ruled over both the Jews and Jerusalem, making them a vassal state. They are as follows:

1. Babylon
2. Persia
3. Macedonia
4. Egypt
5. Seleucia
6. Rome/Constantinople
7. Britain

How did you arrive at that conclusion? How did you reach the conclusion that the dragon is "the chronology of Gentile empires"?

Daniel 7 says the ten horns come up after the beast, so we would expect to see whoever controlled Jerusalem and the Jews after the Ottoman Empire collapsed. Britain took possession of Palestine in September 1918 after the Battle of Megiddo. Britain then gave the Mandate of Palestine over to the creation of a two-state solution between Israel and Jordan.

I have to go to an appointment, but I’ll add more later if I get the chance.

Why would we expect that? Why would we interpret Daniel 7 that way?

Yes, but Moscow never ruled Jerusalem. Daniel 9:24 state that the seventy sevens were for both the Jews and the holy city. Anything outside of those two conditions is irrelevant to the prophecy.

And I see nothing in regard to the Ottomans. I understand Daniel 9 to be talking about something that happened a very long time ago.

I don't understand the assumptions and leaps you are making.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Zao is life]

Do you think the first four seals are already broken? I believe they are.

I saw that Hezbollah plans to target Christians in Lebanon next. This would flow into the fifth seal. I speculate the persecution would drive the Christians there to Israel for protection. The path of the northern horde of Joel 2 would be paved but the gospel would be powerfully preached in Israel.

Then the sixth seal…

I know you never asked me this question but how much do we need to still see? The evil day has arrived when evil is called good, and good is called evil; darkness is called light, and light is called darkness; lies are called truth, and truth is called lies.

"Woe to those who pull evil along using cords of deception and destruction, who pull sin as with cart ropes." -- Isaiah 5:18.

"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who turn darkness into light and light into darkness, who turn bitter into sweet and sweet into bitter." -- Isaiah 5:20

"Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!" -- Isaiah 5:21.

I also know that they have consulted together:

"A Song. A Psalm of Asaph. Keep not silence, O God; do not be speechless, and be not still, O God. For lo, Your enemies roar; and those who hate You have lifted up their head. They take shrewd counsel against Your people, and plot against Your hidden ones. They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation, so that the name Israel may be remembered no more.

For they have consulted together with one consent [leb]: they are confederate against you:

1. The tents of Edom; and
2. the Ishmaelites; and of
3. Moab; and of
4. the Hagarites; and of
5. Gebal; and
6. Ammon; and
7. Amalek; and
8 the Philistines with
9 the people of Tyre; and
10. Assyria has joined with them; they have helped the sons of Lot. Selah."

-- Psalm 83:1-5

"And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These ten will have one mind [gnome], and shall give their power and strength unto the beast." -- Revelation 17:12-13.

"And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and its feet like those of a bear, and its mouth like the mouth of a lion. -- Revelation 13:2.

Babylonian Empire: "Four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. The first was like a lion.

Medo-Persian Empire: And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear.

Greek Empire: After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard".

-- Daniel 7:3-6.

The final part (the Ptolemaic Egyptian kingdom) ceased to exist after the death of its last queen Cleopatra in circa 33 BC.

All of the above kingdoms were part of the beast that existed and had ceased to exist by the time John received the Revelation.

The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to ascend out of the abyss and go into perdition. Rev 17:8a

The image below was that Seleucid empire that Antiochus IV Epiphanes ruled over during the latter days of the 4 kingdoms of the leopard (after the leopard kingdom had split into those kingdoms following the death of Alexander the Great). The Seleucid Empire had already shrunk in size and was in the process of breaking up when Antiochus IV Epiphanes rose to power, finally breaking up into smaller kingdoms after his death

PS: Obviously I don't share anyone's obsession with pushing what I regard as the square peg of the Roman Empire into the round hole of Revelation's beast.

 

[Barraco]

How did you arrive at that conclusion? How did you reach the conclusion that the dragon is "the chronology of Gentile empires"?

The four beasts of Daniel 7 have a combined total of seven heads. Daniel already told us who five of those seven heads are (Dan 2, 8, 10, and 11). Revelation 12 gives us insight into the dragon by saying he is Satan and accuses the brethren night and day. Him being cast out of heaven because of the faithfulness of the saints unto death shows him losing power over the Jews and Jerusalem.

Why would we expect that? Why would we interpret Daniel 7 that way?

"Thus he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it. As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings." (Daniel 7:23-24 NASB1995)

And I see nothing in regard to the Ottomans. I understand Daniel 9 to be talking about something that happened a very long time ago.

I don't understand the assumptions and leaps you are making.

-CryptoLutheran

I think it's very apparent. Perhaps you are being overly skeptical to avoid the sensational. And I would get that. Daniel 9:24-27 is about the times the Jews and Jerusalems are under Gentile authority. Verse 27 is where the ten horns come in. Daniel 2 shows that the kingdom of God will come and rule in the days of those ten kings. Revelation 17 shows that those ten kings make war against Jesus, placing them within the last seven years.

My speculation is that those ten kingdoms will come from the those nations that gather against Jerusalem in Zechariah 12 and Joel 2.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The four beasts of Daniel 7 have a combined total of seven heads. Daniel already told us who five of those seven heads are (Dan 2, 8, 10, and 11). Revelation 12 gives us insight into the dragon by saying he is Satan and accuses the brethren night and day. Him being cast out of heaven because of the faithfulness of the saints unto death shows him losing power over the Jews and Jerusalem.

How did you leap from Daniel 7 to Revelation 12? Where's the connection?

"Thus he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it. As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings." (Daniel 7:23-24 NASB1995)

I think it's very apparent. Perhaps you are being overly skeptical to avoid the sensational. And I would get that. Daniel 9:24-27 is about the times the Jews and Jerusalems are under Gentile authority. Verse 27 is where the ten horns come in. Daniel 2 shows that the kingdom of God will come and rule in the days of those ten kings. Revelation 17 shows that those ten kings make war against Jesus, placing them within the last seven years.

My speculation is that those ten kingdoms will come from the those nations that gather against Jerusalem in Zechariah 12 and Joel 2.

During Babylonian, Mede, Persian, and Hellenistic rule, Jerusalem was ruled by Gentile powers.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Barraco]

How did you leap from Daniel 7 to Revelation 12? Where's the connection?

Take a look at the symbolism:

1. Woman = Zion without her king, in exile

“Now he had still another dream, and related it to his brothers, and said, “Lo, I have had still another dream; and behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.” He related it to his father and to his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, “What is this dream that you have had? Shall I and your mother and your brothers actually come to bow ourselves down before you to the ground?””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭37‬:‭9‬-‭10‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

““Now, why do you cry out loudly? Is there no king among you, Or has your counselor perished, That agony has gripped you like a woman in childbirth? Writhe and labor to give birth, Daughter of Zion, Like a woman in childbirth; For now you will go out of the city, Dwell in the field, And go to Babylon. There you will be rescued; There the Lord will redeem you From the hand of your enemies.”
‭‭Micah‬ ‭4‬:‭9‬-‭10‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

2. The tail casting stars from the sky are the corrupt priests that caused apostasy in Israel during the reign of Antiochus IV.

“It grew up to the host of heaven and caused some of the host and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down. It even magnified itself to be equal with the Commander of the host; and it removed the regular sacrifice from Him, and the place of His sanctuary was thrown down. And on account of transgression the host will be given over to the horn along with the regular sacrifice; and it will fling truth to the ground and perform its will and prosper.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭8‬:‭10‬-‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

3. The man-child she gives birth to = Jesus

““I will surely tell of the decree of the Lord: He said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance, And the very ends of the earth as Your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron, You shall shatter them like earthenware.’ ””
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭2‬:‭7‬-‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

4. The dragon standing before the woman waiting to devour the child = Herod the Great, vassal king for the Roman Empire

“Then when Herod saw that he had been tricked by the magi, he became very enraged, and sent and slew all the male children who were in Bethlehem and all its vicinity, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had determined from the magi.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭2‬:‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

5. The child being caught up to heaven and to the throne = the anointing of Jesus during baptism.

“After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬-‭17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

We know Daniel 7 saw a beast beginning with Babylon and going through to Rome. Revelation 12 steps back to that timeframe, enabling us to draw the connection from Babylon all the way to the Roman Empire.

During Babylonian, Mede, Persian, and Hellenistic rule, Jerusalem was ruled by Gentile powers.

-CryptoLutheran

That’s what I was saying. It was ruled by the Romans too.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Take a look at the symbolism:

1. Woman = Zion without her king, in exile

“Now he had still another dream, and related it to his brothers, and said, “Lo, I have had still another dream; and behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.” He related it to his father and to his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, “What is this dream that you have had? Shall I and your mother and your brothers actually come to bow ourselves down before you to the ground?””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭37‬:‭9‬-‭10‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

““Now, why do you cry out loudly? Is there no king among you, Or has your counselor perished, That agony has gripped you like a woman in childbirth? Writhe and labor to give birth, Daughter of Zion, Like a woman in childbirth; For now you will go out of the city, Dwell in the field, And go to Babylon. There you will be rescued; There the Lord will redeem you From the hand of your enemies.”
‭‭Micah‬ ‭4‬:‭9‬-‭10‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

2. The tail casting stars from the sky are the corrupt priests that caused apostasy in Israel during the reign of Antiochus IV.

“It grew up to the host of heaven and caused some of the host and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down. It even magnified itself to be equal with the Commander of the host; and it removed the regular sacrifice from Him, and the place of His sanctuary was thrown down. And on account of transgression the host will be given over to the horn along with the regular sacrifice; and it will fling truth to the ground and perform its will and prosper.”
‭‭Daniel‬ ‭8‬:‭10‬-‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

3. The man-child she gives birth to = Jesus

““I will surely tell of the decree of the Lord: He said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance, And the very ends of the earth as Your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron, You shall shatter them like earthenware.’ ””
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭2‬:‭7‬-‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

4. The dragon standing before the woman waiting to devour the child = Herod the Great, vassal king for the Roman Empire

“Then when Herod saw that he had been tricked by the magi, he became very enraged, and sent and slew all the male children who were in Bethlehem and all its vicinity, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had determined from the magi.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭2‬:‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

5. The child being caught up to heaven and to the throne = the anointing of Jesus during baptism.

“After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬-‭17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

We know Daniel 7 saw a beast beginning with Babylon and going through to Rome. Revelation 12 steps back to that timeframe, enabling us to draw the connection from Babylon all the way to the Roman Empire.

That's a lot of assumptions.

That’s what I was saying. It was ruled by the Romans too.

There are a number of ways to interpret the succession of kingdoms from Daniel's vision.

There's a lot going on in your interpretations that requires building assumptions on top of assumptions that, frankly, seems original to you. We should avoid doing that.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Barraco]

That's a lot of assumptions.

Why are you even responding?

There are a number of ways to interpret the succession of kingdoms from Daniel's vision.

There's a lot going on in your interpretations that requires building assumptions on top of assumptions that, frankly, seems original to you. We should avoid doing that.

-CryptoLutheran

That’s not an argument.

 

[Truth7t7]

Anyone notice that the colors of the Palestinian flag that immigrants keep waving are also the colors of the four horsemen? I don't think this is a coincidence.

Ezekiel 36 said God would restore Israel in their own land and turn the curses onto the surrounding nations. In 1948, the nation of Israel was formed with its capital west of Jerusalem, in Tel Aviv. After the Yom Kippur War of 1973, Israel sought peace deals with the Palestinians, even giving back land. The Islamic Revolution of 1978-1979 led to violations of peace negotiations and continued war. This Islamic Revolution planted proxies in Gaza and Lebanon. Israel responded by sanctioning those territories. These austere conditions, paired with the looming normalization between Israel and Saudi Arabia provoked Hamas to attack civilians as part of the Al Aqsa Flood last October 7th. Israel responded by desolating the entire Gaza Strip. Thus the four horsemen are Israel's restoration and conquering of his enemies.

Thoughts?

Jeremiah was a prophet to Israel in the Babylonian captivity and their return to Jerusalem to build the 2nd Zerubbabel temple in 536BC

 

[Truth7t7]

1) The seven seals are the restoration of Israel in Palestine and defeat of the Islamic Republic (Ezekiel 36-39)
2) The seven trumpets are the seven year reign of the ten-horned beast (post-war division of Gog/Magog territories along the Mediterranean Sea with Jerusalem as its headquarters).

You falsely suggest that the war seen in Ezekiel 39 below is "Future"?

The scripture below shows that this war is historical and "Fulfilled" with great detail on the "wooden weapons" that were used, Bows, Arrows, Shields, and Spears

Ezekiel 39:8-10KJV
8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord God; this is the day whereof I have spoken.
9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord God.

 

[Truth7t7]

5. The child being caught up to heaven and to the throne = the anointing of Jesus during baptism.

Your Claim Is False

The man child being caught up was the ascension of Jesus to the right hand of God

Mark 16:19KJV
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Revelation 12:5KJV
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

 

[Truth7t7]

The four beasts of Daniel 7 have a combined total of seven heads. Daniel already told us who five of those seven heads are (Dan 2, 8, 10, and 11). Revelation 12 gives us insight into the dragon by saying he is Satan and accuses the brethren night and day. Him being cast out of heaven because of the faithfulness of the saints unto death shows him losing power over the Jews and Jerusalem.

"Thus he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it. As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings." (Daniel 7:23-24 NASB1995)

I think it's very apparent. Perhaps you are being overly skeptical to avoid the sensational. And I would get that. Daniel 9:24-27 is about the times the Jews and Jerusalems are under Gentile authority. Verse 27 is where the ten horns come in. Daniel 2 shows that the kingdom of God will come and rule in the days of those ten kings. Revelation 17 shows that those ten kings make war against Jesus, placing them within the last seven years.

My speculation is that those ten kingdoms will come from the those nations that gather against Jerusalem in Zechariah 12 and Joel 2.

It's my opinion that the ten kings will be a future recognition of the "Ten Lost Tribes" of Israel

You will closely note that they have no kingdom during the time of the beast, but they are recognized and given power quickly "One Hour"

Revelation 17:12KJV
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Why are you even responding?

How we understand matters of faith, by necessity, affects our entire perception and interaction with the world around us.

How does your interpretation affect how you view Arab people? Specifically, how does it affect how you view the Palestinian people in Gaza in the current situation going on right now? How do your own biases, in turn, affect your interpretation? What do you do with the fact that your own Christian brothers and sisters, Palestinian Arabs, are included in all this?

The reason why I'm responding, in this thread at all, is because I think that what you are suggesting is a dangerous and wrong way to understand it. Not just in the details; but this kind of hyper-speculative eisegesis of apocalyptic texts in Scripture creates all kinds of wonky butterfly effects in theology and ethics. We should avoid that and cut that off at the source, and stick to the pure word of God.

What I observe, frequently, on this forum isn't Eschatological discussion. But speculation, conspiracies, and rationalizations for the bizarre, not to mention opening up windows for sin and evil to reign in the heart because it is unguarded by the strong shield of faith. When I post, I do so to try to ring alarm bells.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Barraco]

How we understand matters of faith, by necessity, affects our entire perception and interaction with the world around us.

How does your interpretation affect how you view Arab people? Specifically, how does it affect how you view the Palestinian people in Gaza in the current situation going on right now? How do your own biases, in turn, affect your interpretation? What do you do with the fact that your own Christian brothers and sisters, Palestinian Arabs, are included in all this?

It greatly affects me. I pray every night that God saves as many as possible from what is coming. The pattern is clear in prophecy. We all know it's coming. That motivates us to pray, to warn, and even to look inward to see if we have any faith for Christ to come back to. There are people cursing Israel and putting God's promises to the test. One cannot help but feel compassion for them, having grown up with such poisoned beliefs.

The reason why I'm responding, in this thread at all, is because I think that what you are suggesting is a dangerous and wrong way to understand it. Not just in the details; but this kind of hyper-speculative eisegesis of apocalyptic texts in Scripture creates all kinds of wonky butterfly effects in theology and ethics. We should avoid that and cut that off at the source, and stick to the pure word of God.

Understandable. I appreciate your cautious approach. It seems like you are unwilling to entertain or allow others to entertain any interpretation out of fear (not faith) that they will be misled and bring discredit upon Christ. How, by being more or less cautious, are you preventing anyone from doing that anyway? Instead of discussing the merits and flaws of a view, you just dismiss it as dangerous.

Do you think the Jewish leadership felt the same way when Jeremiah preached exile and destruction in Jerusalem? Or when Jesus condemned the teachings of the religious leaders of his time and foretold the destruction of the temple? Your reluctance to discuss these things runs the same risk. Why are you in an eschatological forum if you seek to shut down any speculation?

What I observe, frequently, on this forum isn't Eschatological discussion. But speculation, conspiracies, and rationalizations for the bizarre, not to mention opening up windows for sin and evil to reign in the heart because it is unguarded by the strong shield of faith. When I post, I do so to try to ring alarm bells.

-CryptoLutheran

Jesus did not give us signs of His coming for us to be scared of misinterpreting them. He is control and we are His people. None of our ancestors could have prevented the restoration of the Jewish state of Israel. None of us can prevent them from defending their right to exist or reclaim the blessings God promised for them. Yet we don't see any reason to believe that Israel's restoration is an eschatological sign? I find that hard to understand. But I'm fine with that if you disagree and try to prevent others from discussing these things. My persistence is not going to change anyone's mind nor am I after followers. Just here to discuss, explore interpretations, and expand my understanding of God's plan.

 

[Barraco]

Your Claim Is False

The man child being caught up was the ascension of Jesus to the right hand of God

Mark 16:19KJV
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Revelation 12:5KJV
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

It’s an interpretation, not a claim. I don’t hold the authority on prophetic teaching.

I’m good with that interpretation as well. In that case, the woman fleeing for 1,260 days would be Zion fleeing Jerusalem at the start of the war with Rome in 66 AD. Neither interpretation changes the outcomes for the rest of the chapter.

 

[Truth7t7]

the woman fleeing for 1,260 days would be Zion fleeing Jerusalem at the start of the war with Rome in 66 AD. Neither interpretation changes the outcomes for the rest of the chapter.

I disagree with preterism, 66-70AD fulfillment is false

The woman will flee into the wilderness when Jerusalem is surrounded and trampled by "Future" armies of gentiles