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Jesus Christ is the Rock. not peter

concretecamper

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Who to believe, some novice bloke, or a Father of the Church. I choose Clement.

“Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter” (Letter of Clement to James2 [A.D. 221]).
 
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Der Alte

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Here we go with this old "the Bible doesn't mean what it says" stuff. If Peter is not the Rock, why would Jesus rename him "Rock?" Then, why would he say this:

Matthew 16: 18-19
18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[b] will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[c] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[d] loosed in heaven.”

No one can really wriggle out of what these two verses say. Unless one decides they will take what they want out of the Bible and drop what they don't agree with. The rest of us simply read the scripture without doing the mental gymnastics that end up making the faithful into people with good intentions who put their denomination before the scripture. With all of their best intentions, people end up being tricked into believing whatever they are told above what is written in the Bible
You are in fact wriggling! Jesus named Simon/Cephas Petros [masculine] a small stone. And upon this rock Petra [feminine] bed rock I will my church. Petra, feminine cannot refer to Peter a male.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Here we go with this old "the Bible doesn't mean what it says" stuff. If Peter is not the Rock, why would Jesus rename him "Rock?" Then, why would he say this:

Matthew 16: 18-19
18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[b] will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[c] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[d] loosed in heaven.”

No one can really wriggle out of what these two verses say. Unless one decides they will take what they want out of the Bible and drop what they don't agree with. The rest of us simply read the scripture without doing the mental gymnastics that end up making the faithful into people with good intentions who put their denomination before the scripture. With all of their best intentions, people end up being tricked into believing whatever they are told above what is written in the Bible
The BIG problem with this interpretation is that he was named that when He first met him, long before the passage in Matthew 16... see John 1:42
 
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The Liturgist

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You are in fact wriggling! Jesus named Simon/Cephas Petros [masculine] a small stone. And upon this rock Petra [feminine] bed rock I will my church. Petra, feminine cannot refer to Peter a male.

That said, I think it could well have been an allusion? SInce I don’t see what else it could have referred to.

Note that most Eastern Orthodox do not think it was referring to St. Peter, however, the Syriac Orthodox do (presumably based on the Peshitta).

But in either case its not a threat to our ecclesiology. The main centers of the early church were Rome, Alexandria and Antioch, after the destruction and before the rebuilding of Jerusalem.

At the council of Nicaea in 325 AD, Canon 6 declares that Alexandria and Antioch have the same authorities as Rome in their canonical territory, and Canon 7 grants that authority to the newly rebuilt city of Jerusalem. This obviously would not have happened had the Pope of Rome had the power that he has now.

Indeed the Bishop of Rome was not even styled as Pope until the 6th century. Since the fourth century however the Bishop of Alexandria was known as Pope.

Later in the fourth century, Constantinople also became a major autocephalous center of the Church, leading to the period of time, which lasted for many centuries, until the Great Schism in 1054, known as the Pentarchy, in which ecclesiastical power was jointly wielded by the bishops of Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem, who also operated in that order of ceremonial precedence.

After the Great Schism, the judicial powers of appeal exercised by Rome under Canon 28 of Chalcedon were transferred to the Church of Constantinople, or New Rome. Later, after the conquest of the Ottoman Empire and the marriage of one of the surviving daughters of the last Byzantine Emperor, Constantine XIII, by one of the Dukes of Muscovy, Moscow became the Third Rome, and as such, among many Slavonic churches, it is regarded as the appelate church under Canon 28. This is part of the reason for the rivalry between the MP and the EP in Constantinople which has in recent years turned into a full-blown schism, and which has led to the Ukrainian Government attempting to suppress the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in violation of the ECHR, despite the UOC having severed ties with the MP in March of 2022.

Interestingly, the Church of Cyprus has always been autocephalous, and thus historically was the sixth in order of precedence after the Pentarchy. However, it was never a particularly powerful or influential church.

In the Eastern Orthodox Church, only the Patriarch of Romania wears a white cassock and exorason, (robe) because the Romanian Orthodox Church is the only ancient church in the Eastern Orthodox communion which never had experienced a period of time when its bishops embraced one of the ancient heresies such as Nestorianism, Arianism, Iconoclasm, etc. Whereas there were periods of time when Arians were installed by the Roman Empire after the Arian takeover following the death of Emperor Constantine on the sees of Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem (it is believed at one point even St. Cyril of Jerusalem, writer of the Mystagogical Catecheses, may have been a semi-Arian, but it is believed he repented of this heresy, which is part of the reason why he is venerated, and this point is also controversial), and later Nestorius, the founder of the heresy which bears his name, ruled the Church of Constantinople with a violence, persecuting anyone who disagreed with his heresy.

This is why I am unsympathetic to his claims of having been wrongfully persecuted by the Council of Ephesus - his deposition was not an overnight affair, but the result of years of advocacy for the Orthodox faith by St. Cyril of Alexandria, with the help of St. Celestine of Rome, as he had for some time been protected by Patriarch John of Antioch, but eventually John saw the light, and agreed that he should be deposed, and thus the Council of Ephesus happened.
 
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The Liturgist

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Who to believe, some novice bloke, or a Father of the Church. I choose Clement.

“Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter” (Letter of Clement to James2 [A.D. 221]).

Just to be clear, which Clement is that? Since St. Clement the Bishop of Rome died in the first century. And I was not aware that the Roman church regarded St. Clement of Alexandria as a saint (he is a saint in the Oriental Orthodox, but if I recall he, and St. Evagrius, are not regarded as saints by most Eastern Orthodox).
 
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concretecamper

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Just to be clear, which Clement is that? Since St. Clement the Bishop of Rome died in the first century. And I was not aware that the Roman church regarded St. Clement of Alexandria as a saint (he is a saint in the Oriental Orthodox, but if I recall he, and St. Evagrius, are not regarded as saints by most Eastern Orthodox).
Short answer is no. It's a complicated story for sure. Many Catholic authors still refer to him as St Clement of Alexandria.
 
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rturner76

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The BIG problem with this interpretation is that he was named that when He first met him, long before the passage in Matthew 16... see John 1:42
It was prophesy and Peter was always Christ's favorite.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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It was prophesy and Peter was always Christ's favorite.
Nice try. John was the one He loved. Yeshua had a habit of nick-naming His apostles...
 
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rturner76

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Nice try. John was the one He loved. Yeshua had a habit of nick-naming His apostles...
Hmm, perhaps he did love John more emotionally. Still he gave the Keys to the Kingdom to St Peter. Whatever he bound on Earth was bound in Heaves and whatever he loosed on Earth would be loosed in Heaven. What does that say about the regard he had for St Peter?

Now, I know it has always been a part of most Protistant brands of Christianity ( there is over a thousand to choose from), but in most of the early Reformed Churches, it was part of their agenda to discredit St Peter's contribution to the early Church. By undermining him, they undermine the Papacy which is the most important goal of the Reformed church(s). They claimed to be seeking the truth that the original Church kept from them but 9 out of 10 of these upstart churches still followed St Augustine's theology and they still do though now they credit themselves for being the leaders of the true faith. All of the 1,000+ different churches teach the fullness of truth but they don't have to agree with each other on doctrine, they just have to prove that they know God's will better than the Church founded by the incarnation of God himself. I wonder which one of the 1,000+ churches actually got it right? I'm sure it's your denomination or non-denomination (which seems to have become its own denomination).
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Hmm, perhaps he did love John more emotionally. Still he gave the Keys to the Kingdom to St Peter. Whatever he bound on Earth was bound in Heaves and whatever he loosed on Earth would be loosed in Heaven. What does that say about the regard he had for St Peter?

Now, I know it has always been a part of most Protistant brands of Christianity ( there is over a thousand to choose from), but in most of the early Reformed Churches, it was part of their agenda to discredit St Peter's contribution to the early Church. By undermining him, they undermine the Papacy which is the most important goal of the Reformed church(s). They claimed to be seeking the truth that the original Church kept from them but 9 out of 10 of these upstart churches still followed St Augustine's theology and they still do though now they credit themselves for being the leaders of the true faith. All of the 1,000+ different churches teach the fullness of truth but they don't have to agree with each other on doctrine, they just have to prove that they know God's will better than the Church founded by the incarnation of God himself. I wonder which one of the 1,000+ churches actually got it right? I'm sure it's your denomination or non-denomination (which seems to have become its own denomination).
Well the way it is written, it "could" be to Peter OR it "could" be He said it to all the Apostles present. I am not trying to discredit Peter. BTW, I am Orthodox. It is Rome and only Rome who try and appropriate Peter.
 
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rturner76

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Well the way it is written, it "could" be to Peter OR it "could" be He said it to all the Apostles present. I am not trying to discredit Peter. BTW, I am Orthodox. It is Rome and only Rome who try and appropriate Peter.
Surely because Peter founded the Church in Rome. The Greek Church came first because of Greece's religious freedom and their language was used legally and the Greek language at that time was the language of scholarship and used in the early Universities. I have no beef with the Eastern Church as it can be said that it's even older than the Roman Church.

The main difference from my limited understanding is that the Greek Church believed (believes) that the Revekation has already been made and there is nothing to add or take away from it and the Roman Church taught that Revelation would continue to be revealed throughout time.
 
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Der Alte

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That said, I think it could well have been an allusion? SInce I don’t see what else it could have referred to.

Note that most Eastern Orthodox do not think it was referring to St. Peter, however, the Syriac Orthodox do (presumably based on the Peshitta).

But in either case its not a threat to our ecclesiology. The main centers of the early church were Rome, Alexandria and Antioch, after the destruction and before the rebuilding of Jerusalem.

At the council of Nicaea in 325 AD, Canon 6 declares that Alexandria and Antioch have the same authorities as Rome in their canonical territory, and Canon 7 grants that authority to the newly rebuilt city of Jerusalem. This obviously would not have happened had the Pope of Rome had the power that he has now.

Indeed the Bishop of Rome was not even styled as Pope until the 6th century. Since the fourth century however the Bishop of Alexandria was known as Pope.

Later in the fourth century, Constantinople also became a major autocephalous center of the Church, leading to the period of time, which lasted for many centuries, until the Great Schism in 1054, known as the Pentarchy, in which ecclesiastical power was jointly wielded by the bishops of Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem, who also operated in that order of ceremonial precedence.

After the Great Schism, the judicial powers of appeal exercised by Rome under Canon 28 of Chalcedon were transferred to the Church of Constantinople, or New Rome. Later, after the conquest of the Ottoman Empire and the marriage of one of the surviving daughters of the last Byzantine Emperor, Constantine XIII, by one of the Dukes of Muscovy, Moscow became the Third Rome, and as such, among many Slavonic churches, it is regarded as the appelate church under Canon 28. This is part of the reason for the rivalry between the MP and the EP in Constantinople which has in recent years turned into a full-blown schism, and which has led to the Ukrainian Government attempting to suppress the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in violation of the ECHR, despite the UOC having severed ties with the MP in March of 2022.

Interestingly, the Church of Cyprus has always been autocephalous, and thus historically was the sixth in order of precedence after the Pentarchy. However, it was never a particularly powerful or influential church.

In the Eastern Orthodox Church, only the Patriarch of Romania wears a white cassock and exorason, (robe) because the Romanian Orthodox Church is the only ancient church in the Eastern Orthodox communion which never had experienced a period of time when its bishops embraced one of the ancient heresies such as Nestorianism, Arianism, Iconoclasm, etc. Whereas there were periods of time when Arians were installed by the Roman Empire after the Arian takeover following the death of Emperor Constantine on the sees of Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem (it is believed at one point even St. Cyril of Jerusalem, writer of the Mystagogical Catecheses, may have been a semi-Arian, but it is believed he repented of this heresy, which is part of the reason why he is venerated, and this point is also controversial), and later Nestorius, the founder of the heresy which bears his name, ruled the Church of Constantinople with a violence, persecuting anyone who disagreed with his heresy.

This is why I am unsympathetic to his claims of having been wrongfully persecuted by the Council of Ephesus - his deposition was not an overnight affair, but the result of years of advocacy for the Orthodox faith by St. Cyril of Alexandria, with the help of St. Celestine of Rome, as he had for some time been protected by Patriarch John of Antioch, but eventually John saw the light, and agreed that he should be deposed, and thus the Council of Ephesus happened.
A somewhat interesting anthology which does NOT address the topic I responded to.
 
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The Liturgist

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A somewhat interesting anthology which does NOT address the topic I responded to.

Indeed, nor was it meant to, since you’re the expert when it comes to the Bible!
 
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The Liturgist

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Hmm, perhaps he did love John more emotionally. Still he gave the Keys to the Kingdom to St Peter. Whatever he bound on Earth was bound in Heaves and whatever he loosed on Earth would be loosed in Heaven. What does that say about the regard he had for St Peter?

Now, I know it has always been a part of most Protistant brands of Christianity ( there is over a thousand to choose from), but in most of the early Reformed Churches, it was part of their agenda to discredit St Peter's contribution to the early Church. By undermining him, they undermine the Papacy which is the most important goal of the Reformed church(s). They claimed to be seeking the truth that the original Church kept from them but 9 out of 10 of these upstart churches still followed St Augustine's theology and they still do though now they credit themselves for being the leaders of the true faith. All of the 1,000+ different churches teach the fullness of truth but they don't have to agree with each other on doctrine, they just have to prove that they know God's will better than the Church founded by the incarnation of God himself. I wonder which one of the 1,000+ churches actually got it right? I'm sure it's your denomination or non-denomination (which seems to have become its own denomination).

Well @Der Alte and a number of Orthodox scholars disagree with that RC exegesis. The prevailing view I come across is that it was referring to all of the Apostles. But even if it was referring to St. Peter, who does appear to have a leadership role, that doesn’t create a scriptural basis for Papal Supremacy.

And we know the early church did not have anything like the strong Papacy of today, not just because of Canons 6 and 7 of Nicaea, but also because of the numerous cases where the Pope could have simply removed troublesome bishops like Nestorius rather than waiting for an ecumenical council to do it and in the case of Nestorius not only that, but participating in several years of negotiations to get Patriarch John of Antioch to agree to depose Nestorius, since John initially was inclined disfavorably towards Pope St. Cyril of Alexandria and the arguments against Nestorius, who had been a priest in Antioch before being translated to Constantinople and made Patriarch following a similiar career trajectory to St. John Chrysostom.

Speaking of which, a strong Pope surely would have been able to prevent Emperor Theodosius II from deposing St. John Chrysostom at the behest of his wife, who was outraged at St. John calling her out for her obscene waste of money, which included a solid gold lavatory.
 
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JSRG

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Who to believe, some novice bloke, or a Father of the Church. I choose Clement.

“Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter” (Letter of Clement to James2 [A.D. 221]).
Clement didn't write that latter. The letter you refer to, despite claiming to be from Clement (specifically, Clement of Rome) to James, is a later writing by someone else. This is actually admitted by wherever you copied that citation from, given that it says it's from 221 AD; how would Clement write a letter to James around 221 AD when both had been dead for over a century by that point?

That's not to say the letter is useless for proving the point, as it shows that someone had this interpretation regarding Peter... but it wasn't Clement, but rather a later unknown writer.

Just to be clear, which Clement is that? Since St. Clement the Bishop of Rome died in the first century. And I was not aware that the Roman church regarded St. Clement of Alexandria as a saint (he is a saint in the Oriental Orthodox, but if I recall he, and St. Evagrius, are not regarded as saints by most Eastern Orthodox).
The Clement in question was Clement of Rome, but as noted while it's attributed to him, he didn't actually write it.
 
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JSRG

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Exactly, not Clement of Rome.
The problem is, you explicitly claimed it was Clement. You didn't specify Clement of Rome, but at any rate it was neither Clement of Rome nor Clement of Alexandria, but an unknown writer claiming to be Clement of Rome.
 
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The Liturgist

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Clement didn't write that latter. The letter you refer to, despite claiming to be from Clement (specifically, Clement of Rome) to James, is a later writing by someone else. This is actually admitted by wherever you copied that citation from, given that it says it's from 221 AD; how would Clement write a letter to James around 221 AD when both had been dead for over a century by that point?

That's not to say the letter is useless for proving the point, as it shows that someone had this interpretation regarding Peter... but it wasn't Clement, but rather a later unknown writer.


The Clement in question was Clement of Rome, but as noted while it's attributed to him, he didn't actually write it.

Well to be fair to everyone, there is a lot of important literature which is probably psuedepigraphical. For example, the writings attributed to St. Dionysius the Aereopagite, which are now generally thought to have been written by an unknown 5th century theologian called “Psuedo Dionysius.” These writings are profound, and have had a very positive impact on the Orthodox church.

There was actually a pious custom among some Christians in antiquity of writing Psuedepigraphically. So whereas the Gnostics wrote psuedepigraphical works usually attributed to one of the Twelve Apostles, or St. Mary Magdalene, in order to deceive the laity into thinking their writing represented some authentic truth (often a specific apostle particularly venerated in the area where the work was published, hence Syrian Gnostics and Manichaeans would attribute material to St. Thomas the Apostle, as he was the most well-known and beloved apostle in the East), some orthodox Christians wrote using the name of a saint they admired for reasons of humility.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Surely because Peter founded the Church in Rome. The Greek Church came first because of Greece's religious freedom and their language was used legally and the Greek language at that time was the language of scholarship and used in the early Universities. I have no beef with the Eastern Church as it can be said that it's even older than the Roman Church.

The main difference from my limited understanding is that the Greek Church believed (believes) that the Revekation has already been made and there is nothing to add or take away from it and the Roman Church taught that Revelation would continue to be revealed throughout time.
Well Yeshua founded HIS Church in Jerusalem where the first Council occurred as far as I know. From there the Apostles spread it.
 
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rturner76

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Well @Der Alte and a number of Orthodox scholars disagree with that RC exegesis. The prevailing view I come across is that it was referring to all of the Apostles. But even if it was referring to St. Peter, who does appear to have a leadership role, that doesn’t create a scriptural basis for Papal Supremacy.

And we know the early church did not have anything like the strong Papacy of today, not just because of Canons 6 and 7 of Nicaea, but also because of the numerous cases where the Pope could have simply removed troublesome bishops like Nestorius rather than waiting for an ecumenical council to do it and in the case of Nestorius not only that, but participating in several years of negotiations to get Patriarch John of Antioch to agree to depose Nestorius, since John initially was inclined disfavorably towards Pope St. Cyril of Alexandria and the arguments against Nestorius, who had been a priest in Antioch before being translated to Constantinople and made Patriarch following a similiar career trajectory to St. John Chrysostom.

Speaking of which, a strong Pope surely would have been able to prevent Emperor Theodosius II from deposing St. John Chrysostom at the behest of his wife, who was outraged at St. John calling her out for her obscene waste of money, which included a solid gold lavatory.
Yes, the Pope's powers are not absolute as many believe. To make global decisions on doctrine, he must have the support of the Magisterium.

hope that I didn't imply that the Pope had singular power over all Church matters. He is the Bishop of Rome and considered "first among equals. Technically, he has no powers than a Bishop. However by being the Bishop of Rome, he as first among equals has more influence than the other Bishops like for example the Bishop of Jerusalem, Hippo, or Antioch. His position was magnified by Chatlamane's gift of the Papal States. This new development made the Pope not just a religious leader but a governor of the Papal States which put him on the global stage with Kings, Queens, and even the Holy Roman Emporer. That is when his role Changed from first among equals to some exalted position.

However from beginning to end the Pope still needed (and needs today) the agreement of the Magisterium to change or alter Church Doctrine. I don't doubt that some Popes got so powerful that a member of the Magisterium gould be ostracised for disagreeing with the Pope. I also acknowledge that even through the election process, most Popes are elected that are worthy, they are also human beings and are flawed. Take the Borgia dynasty for example. This was a family set on power more than preaching God's mercy. They used the Papal army to march on and claimed property that was not given to them. In those days, there were two great powers, Royalty and Clergy, entwined in a dance for power and the clergy wasn't subject to common law but commoners (and sometimes noblemen and Royalty) were subject to Catholic Courts. This supposedly balanced the power of the Royals who had to be approved by the Church AND the Royals would have influence over Bishop's appointments. They had a good time eating high on the hog and leaving scraps to the common people.
 
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