Schools giving kids sex changes without parental knowledge

[Larniavc]

Recent astounding information leaked to the public by Mr Trump during high profile interview with the historically pro LBTQ+ Moms for Liberty pressure group!

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/02/03/us/moms-for-liberty-scandal-opposition/index.html#:~:text=Moms%20for%20Liberty%20first%20garnered%20national

Mr Trump rubs oil into the salty wounds of media coverage of this issue and more; “The transgender thing is incredible. Think of it. Your kid goes to school and comes home a few days later with an operation. The school decides what’s going to happen with your child,” Trump said in remarks to the shrinking conservative group Moms for Liberty.

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/09/04/politics/donald-trump-fact-check-children-gender-affirming-surgery/index.html

Now that we have proof that childs below the age of 15 and older are being sexually changed at school (presumably by teachers and more besides) does this finally answer the question about all LBTQ+ issues in one fell swoop, I expect?

 

[hedrick]

The links in the article say that the claims are false. Surgery on a minor requires parental consent, or in rare situations possibly court intervention. A school can’t order it, nor is it physically possible for a kid to go to school and come back in the evening after what would be major surgery.

What does sometimes happen is that people in school call a kid what they ask to be called, without necessarily notifying parents.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

What does sometimes happen is that people in school call a kid what they ask to be called, without necessarily notifying parents.

Correct.

I think tactics that get employed in public discourse have made it impossible for there to be honest discussions.

People like Trump employing reductio ad absurdum (exaggerating things to ridiculous extremes and criticizing the end result) is actually doing the conservative concerns about some of this stuff a huge disservice.

So for instance, if parents have concerns about what you mentioned, or even a little further... school counselors being encouraged to call in protective services for "misgendering at home if a parent is unsupportive of gender identity" (which is actually something some school boards have proposed)

Those are reasonable concerns... however, suggesting something wild like that a school is going to install a "genital chopping station" just to get a cheap crowd pop actually gives the perception that those other concerns are worthy of being immediately dismissed.

"Well, they were exaggerating like crazy about those other things, so they're probably doing the same here and it's just some slippery slope argument".

 

[loveofourlord]

Correct.

I think tactics that get employed in public discourse have made it impossible for there to be honest discussions.

People like Trump employing reductio ad absurdum (exaggerating things to ridiculous extremes and criticizing the end result) is actually doing the conservative concerns about some of this stuff a huge disservice.

So for instance, if parents have concerns about what you mentioned, or even a little further... school counselors being encouraged to call in protective services for "misgendering at home if a parent is unsupportive of gender identity" (which is actually something some school boards have proposed)

Those are reasonable concerns... however, suggesting something wild like that a school is going to install a "genital chopping station" just to get a cheap crowd pop actually gives the perception that those other concerns are worthy of being immediately dismissed.

"Well, they were exaggerating like crazy about those other things, so they're probably doing the same here and it's just some slippery slope argument".

On the other hand you have the right that think their families SHOULD know if their kid is trans, or gay even if the kid is likely to be kicked out or abused for being that.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

On the other hand you have the right that think their families SHOULD know if their kid is trans, or gay even if the kid is likely to be kicked out or abused for being that.

There are laws that already cover the situations you describe

If there's actual abuse happening then that kind of stuff already gets reported to protective services.

But we shouldn't be conflating parents "not wanting to proceed with affirmation as the only path forward", with actual abuse.

I don't necessarily think that letting 13-year-olds lead "secret double lives" is a prudent path forward regardless of what side of the fence a person comes down on, on this particular issue...or either of the involved parties for that matter.

 

[loveofourlord]

There are laws that already cover the situations you describe

If there's actual abuse happening then that kind of stuff already gets reported to protective services.

But we shouldn't be conflating parents "not wanting to proceed with affirmation as the only path forward", with actual abuse.

I don't necessarily think that letting 13-year-olds lead "secret double lives" is a prudent path forward regardless of what side of the fence a person comes down on, on this particular issue.

yeah, that is abuse, but I'm talking more about physical or emotional abuse and such. Parents don't have a right to know everything about their kids. If a kid is in danger at home, for the kids saftehy it's best they don't know, only reason to tell the parents is so they can smack the LGBTQ out of their kids, literally or metaphoricly. What benefit is there to out a kid to a family that has a high chance of abusing.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

yeah, that is abuse, but I'm talking more about physical or emotional abuse and such. Parents don't have a right to know everything about their kids. If a kid is in danger at home, for the kids saftehy it's best they don't know, only reason to tell the parents is so they can smack the LGBTQ out of their kids, literally or metaphoricly. What benefit is there to out a kid to a family that has a high chance of abusing.

If there's a legitimate concern that the child is actually in danger at home then wouldn't that be grounds for further investigation? (As opposed to secret keeping?)

If this were any other topic, would we be discussing it the same way?

For instance if there was a kid who said "there's a very real chance that my dad will hit or verbally abuse me if he found out I got a bad grade on a report", would the school counselors strategy be "well let's just tell your parents that you actually got straight A's, don't worry your secret is safe with us"

 

[loveofourlord]

If there's a legitimate concern that the child is actually in danger at home then wouldn't that be grounds for further investigation? (As opposed to secret keeping?)

If this were any other topic, would we be discussing it the same way?

For instance if there was a kid who said "there's a very real chance that my dad will hit or verbally abuse me if he found out I got a bad grade on a report", would the school counselors strategy be "well let's just tell your parents that you actually got straight A's, don't worry your secret is safe with us"

okay, what if it's a muslim family and a high chance they might kill or abuse the child for being Christian, wich ACTUALLY a choice vs being LGBTQ.

We have actual cases of LGBTQ kids being abused and hurt, and STOP RELATING GENDER/SEXUAL ORIENTATION WITH CRIMES/BAD BEHAVIOR lose all credability.

if you can't tell the difference I'm not responding again.

 

[Larniavc]

For instance if there was a kid who said "there's a very real chance that my dad will hit or verbally abuse me if he found out I got a bad grade on a report", would the school counselors strategy be "well let's just tell your parents that you actually got straight A's, don't worry your secret is safe with us"

The thing is (seems to be a much bigger in America based on what I've read here) there seems to be disagreement as to whether corporal punishment is child abuse or not so that's a whole other issue.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

okay, what if it's a muslim family and a high chance they might kill or abuse the child for being Christian, wich ACTUALLY a choice vs being LGBTQ.

We have actual cases of LGBTQ kids being abused and hurt, and STOP RELATING GENDER/SEXUAL ORIENTATION WITH CRIMES/BAD BEHAVIOR lose all credability.

if you can't tell the difference I'm not responding again.

My post wasn't trying equate anything with bad behavior, the example was just one I put in at random (as scholastic aptitude is also something out of a child's control in many ways), my post was trying to illuminate the fact that in no other situation, where a student says "there's a good chance my parents will do X if find out Y" (insert whatever you want for X & Y), would a counselor opt to keep things on the down-low if they really viewed it as legitimate abuse, they'd be on the horn with social services.

Also, if we're trying to keep this conversation intellectually honest, we shouldn't be discussing the LGB in the same context as T.

There are noteworthy differences between them that are applicable to this situation.

 

[hedrick]

Normally, parents would find out in a number of ways. But I don't think it's fair to put schools in the middle between parents and teachers. Should they tell the parents if the kid is interested in a different religiion from the parent? If they are interested in English when their parents want them to be a doctor? It's fine to say the school shouldn't keep secrets about their kid, but I don't think they should have a legal respolnsibility to tell the parent anything that the parent is likely to not like, nor do I support the tradition of treating sex and gender as the most important things in the world.

It's interesting to read a more broad-based site than this one. I often look at Reddit's Christianity site. There are lots of kids who face flack at home for all kinds of things: Kids who are Christians with atheist parents, kids who are atheists with Christian parents, kids with non-traditional gender or sex Reporting the parents to CPS is not always (or maybe even normally) the best way to deal with these issues. A school counsellor may well be helpful, but requiring the school to tell their parents everything their kids does and says is just as bad as reporting every parent to CPS when their kid has problems with them.

I also don'[t think a school can reasonably keep sexual identity secret. It's not reasonable for a kid to think that their parent isn't going to find out how they present themselves in public. But I'm opposed to policies that require schools to notify, no matter what. You'll note that the much-dsicussed California law doesn't prohibit teachers from telling parents. It prohbits policy from requiring them to notify uniformly.

 

[loveofourlord]

My post wasn't trying equate anything with bad behavior, the example was just one I put in at random (as scholastic aptitude is also something out of a child's control in many ways), my post was trying to illuminate the fact that in no other situation, where a student says "there's a good chance my parents will do X if find out Y" (insert whatever you want for X & Y), would a counselor opt to keep things on the down-low if they really viewed it as legitimate abuse, they'd be on the horn with social services.

Also, if we're trying to keep this conversation intellectually honest, we shouldn't be discussing the LGB in the same context as T.

There are noteworthy differences between them that are applicable to this situation.

Sorry your dislike of science and how the brain works doesn't effect how I treat them.

Funny how I'm sure you agree that the external body often doesn't match their sex, but when it's the brain suddenly some how it's impossible for the brain to not match the body, despite the brain being infinetly more complicated and effected by far more things.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Schools take the authority over the children away from the parents, and when the kids do something wrong, the schools want to blame the parents. Listen, if you take the authority away from the parents, then you assume the responsibility for what they do. The two go hand in hand.

 

[Larniavc]

Schools take the authority over the children away from the parents, and when the kids do something wrong, the schools want to blame the parents. Listen, if you take the authority away from the parents, then you assume the responsibility for what they do. The two go hand in hand.

Which authority are schools taking away from parents?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Sorry your dislike of science and how the brain works doesn't effect how I treat them.

Funny how I'm sure you agree that the external body often doesn't match their sex, but when it's the brain suddenly some how it's impossible for the brain to not match the body, despite the brain being infinetly more complicated and effected by far more things.

You're either misunderstanding what I'm saying, or taking certain things out of context here.

The topic at hand here school disclosure. This has nothing to do with how you, personally, want to treat them.

If there was any other situation happening (for any reason) where the school staff had a justifiable reason to believe that something, they sincerely considered to be abuse, could be highly likely, they'd be reporting it.

And the little "sorry your dislike of science" jab...
Let's be honest here, the "science is settled"-style argument is far from being the reality with regards to the study of transgender youth. If it was "settled science", then various public health authorities across various developed nations
A) would all be coming up with relatively similar conclusions regarding the best approaches
B) wouldn't have implemented things, and then had to reverse course less than 4 years later

Those aren't the hallmarks of "settled science"
The "Dutch Protocol" (which was touted as settled science, and "the gold standard" for that realm of care) has been reversed by 6 different countries that implemented it, including the Netherlands where it originated.


So if we want to talk about actual forms of abuse, that's valid (and when that occurs, the counselors next phone call had better be to social services, in fact, I think it's their obligation to do so). However, we shouldn't be branding "refusal to fully buy-in to a methodology and protocol, that even the originators of which, are questioning and have reversed course on" as "abuse" as a justification for keeping certain information from parents.




And, as I noted before, despite people wanting to lump in LGBT as all one acronym, the "T" is very different from the "LGB"

The "LGB" doesn't have any implications surrounding things that potentially can't be un-done. The "T" does, people need to be honest enough to acknowledge that.

So we shouldn't be chalking up concerns about the transgender topic (specifically with regards to children) as being "equally petty and bigotry-driven" as parents who, say, may have superficial moral qualms with their kid identifying as gay, lesbian, or bisexual.

 

[loveofourlord]

You're either misunderstanding what I'm saying, or taking certain things out of context here.

The topic at hand here school disclosure. This has nothing to do with how you, personally, want to treat them.

If there was any other situation happening (for any reason) where the school staff had a justifiable reason to believe that something, they sincerely considered to be abuse, could be highly likely, they'd be reporting it.

And the little "sorry your dislike of science" jab...
Let's be honest here, the "science is settled"-style argument is far from being the reality with regards to the study of transgender youth. If it was "settled science", then various public health authorities across various developed nations
A) would all be coming up with relatively similar conclusions regarding the best approaches
B) wouldn't have implemented things, and then had to reverse course less than 4 years later

Those aren't the hallmarks of "settled science"
The "Dutch Protocol" (which was touted as settled science, and "the gold standard" for that realm of care) has been reversed by 6 different countries that implemented it, including the Netherlands where it originated.


So if we want to talk about actual forms of abuse, that's valid (and when that occurs, the counselors next phone call had better be to social services, in fact, I think it's their obligation to do so). However, we shouldn't be branding "refusal to fully buy-in to a methodology and protocol, that even the originators of which, are questioning and have reversed course on" as "abuse" as a justification for keeping certain information from parents.




And, as I noted before, despite people wanting to lump in LGBT as all one acronym, the "T" is very different from the "LGB"

The "LGB" doesn't have any implications surrounding things that potentially can't be un-done. The "T" does, people need to be honest enough to acknowledge that.

So we shouldn't be chalking up concerns about the transgender topic (specifically with regards to children) as being "equally petty and bigotry-driven" as parents who, say, may have superficial moral qualms with their kid identifying as gay, lesbian, or bisexual.

Being Trans is seperate from having the surgery or not, and a red herring, most don't actually transition or feel the need, being trans is independant from changing their sex, and not relevant to kids either. The discussion is do the parents have a right to know something abotu their kids that is private and the kids not their buisness. What do you actually think is the buisness of a parent if their kid is trans or gay or such unles syou think the parnets can change that? let the kid decide when/how to talk about it. You pretend like this is the only place it matters, but yeah guess what...kids have many issues they talk with others about, stuff they never talk about with their parents and wouldn't be forced to tell them about.

Again would you be fine with forcing muslim parents that their children are Christian? Take out the very likely will harm them, wher eit's just a risk. We've see it where they are abused, or killed by their parents. You think it's fine to out kids about being muslim or any other religion? Guess what it has the same relevance to the parents as it does here. it's only job is to harm LGBT and force them into a position that could hurt them.

Not everyone might know how to best handle it, especially countries with a huge theological underpining of these things instead of science.

Again, untill you can show me the mechanism or explain how someone can be born female, and turn male at puberty is different from being born with a brain that is more femanine then masculine creating a disconnect then you can't really say much at all on the subject. We know the extreme physical examples above happen when it's related to the outer apperance, how the heck can the brain a far far FAR more complex thing not be effected, is it just because its easier to pretend it's not real since it's not overt?

 

[Chesterton]

How is this any different from this?

I'll tell you how it's different. Trump made one off the cuff exaggeration and this liberal group made a premeditated, well-produced 1:22 TV commercial to say that Republicans want to murder grandmothers in wheelchairs. Don't worry about Trump.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Schools take the authority over the children away from the parents, and when the kids do something wrong, the schools want to blame the parents. Listen, if you take the authority away from the parents, then you assume the responsibility for what they do. The two go hand in hand.

No they don't. I worked in a school system for 18 years and never saw authority taken away from the parents unless the courts or police did it for things like custody battles or abuse or neglect. Schools do not have the authority to take children away or even get them treated for minor illnesses much less a sex change. Even the medicine that comes in for a child has to be a prescription or an over the counter med and both have to have parental consent. The schools even have to have signed consent to receive any documents from the doctor unless the parent themselves bring it in.

 

[FreeinChrist]

How is this any different from this?

I'll tell you how it's different. Trump made one off the cuff exaggeration and this liberal group made a premeditated, well-produced 1:22 TV commercial to say that Republicans want to murder grandmothers in wheelchairs. Don't worry about Trump.

It was more than once and not 'off the cuff'. It was a blatant lie. Fear-mongering is a better word.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

No they don't. I worked in a school system for 18 years and never saw authority taken away from the parents unless the courts or police did it for things like custody battles or abuse or neglect. Schools do not have the authority to take children away or even get them treated for minor illnesses much less a sex change. Even the medicine that comes in for a child has to be a prescription or an over the counter med and both have to have parental consent. The schools even have to have signed consent to receive any documents from the doctor unless the parent themselves bring it in.

Cool.
We keep hearing stories of schools keeping information from parents. Maybe those reports are false.