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Abused texts of Scripture: What is your example?

SabbathBlessings

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Jesus was Divine and not human before the Incarnation. Mary was not Divine before the Incarnation. In the Incarnation, the TWO NATURES BECOME ONE PERSON. You are stating there are two persons and two natures. Do some homework on this issue. Then you might want to post a thread with you conclusions. Probably take 10 to 20 hours of study. I am done with this conversation.
No I'm not, Jesus became fully human and was fully God-One person, I never said He was two persons. Mary was one person only- human. You keep trying to make an argument that Mary was too- I would need a verse for that, she was His fully human mother, not Mother of God, she did not exist before the earth was created, and was born , God always existed therefore Mary cannot be Mother of God.

I asked for you to quote it from the bible where Mary is the mother of God. So far I only have received silence.
 
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Clare73

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Few examples:

The centurion who wanted Jesus to heal his servant approached Jesus in person (Matthew 8:5) or sent intermediaries (Luke 7:3)
Mt 8:5 does not preclude Lk 7:3 just because it is not mentioned in Mt 8:5.

Because the soldiers are not mentioned, does that preclude them from flogging Jesus, so that Pilate himself flogged Jesus in Mt 27:26?
Mark 5:21-24 indicates that Jairus approaches Jesus while his daughter is still alive and requests healing.
Matthew 9:18 states that Jairus approaches Jesus after his daughter has already died, asking Him to raise her.
Sorry, you will have to do better than this to warrant my time.

Mk 5:35 indicates two reportings: Jairus' plea to Jesus to heal his daughter (Mk 5:22-23,) followed by a report to Jairus by the men from his house that his daughter has died (Mk 5:35).

A word to the wise: the "examples" presented above are one of the means used to separate the goats from the sheep.
The goats are baffled by them, and do not believe.
The sheep are not baffled, the Holy Spirit giving them understanding, and do believe.
 
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Ain't Zwinglian

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A word to the wise: the "examples" presented above are one of the means used to separate the goats from the sheep.
The goats are baffled by them, and do not believe.
The sheep are not baffled, the Holy Spirit giving them understanding, and do believe.
A most excellent point. The HS allows surface difficulties in the text as a "means to separate the goats from the sheep." The benefit is for the sheep.
 
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jas3

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No I'm not, Jesus became fully human and was fully God-One person, I never said He was two persons. Mary was one person only- human. You keep trying to make an argument that Mary was too- I would need a verse for that, she was His fully human mother, not Mother of God, she did not exist before the earth was created, and was born , God always existed therefore Mary cannot be Mother of God.
You are insisting on a sense of "mother" that you have been told explicitly is not the correct sense of the word here.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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You are insisting on a sense of "mother" that you have been told explicitly is not the correct sense of the word here.
Please provide the scripture. Either she is the mother of Jesus the man, or Mother of God and existed before God, that is not taught in the scriptures, only she is mother to Jesus on earth. Creating something not given in the scriptures is not a good idea imho. Pro 30:6
 
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BNR32FAN

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Judge not, lest ye be judged (Matthew 7:1)

In vain do they worship me teaching as doctrines, the commandments of men.’ (Mark 7:7)

Where there is no vision, the people perish. – Proverbs 29:18

So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17

I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.” 2 Sam. 7:23
1 John 2:19 people often use this passage to explain that anyone who falls away was never a true believer.

“They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2‬:‭19‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

But James 5:19-20 says that true believers can fall away and when they do their soul is in danger of death.

“My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”
‭‭James‬ ‭5‬:‭19‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

There’s a distinct difference between these two passages. John is referring to a specific group of people who were antichrists, whereas James is referring to any believer in general.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I don't understand why you talk about Christians having the mark of the beast. This mark is spoken of just twice in the bible:

“1 ¶ Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth." 2 So the first went and poured out his bowl upon the earth, and a foul and loathsome sore came upon the men who had the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image.” (Re 16:1-2 NKJV)

“Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.” (Re 19:20 NKJV)

In the context, it is clear that those who have the mark of the beast are not Christians. Christians, those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ are certainly not destined for the lake of fire. Jesus said:

“"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.” (Joh 6:47 NKJV)
Jesus said those who believe in Him, present tense. James said that believers can fall away resulting in condemnation.

“My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”
‭‭James‬ ‭5‬:‭19‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
 
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jas3

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Either she is the mother of Jesus the man, or Mother of God and existed before God, that is not taught in the scriptures, only she is mother to Jesus on earth.
If you're just going to ignore what I said, then I'll leave you to it. I'm not interested in dragging this thread farther off topic or having you repeat nonsense like "the mother of Jesus the man" as if Jesus Christ isn't God.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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If you're just going to ignore what I said, then I'll leave you to it. I'm not interested in dragging this thread farther off topic or having you repeat nonsense like "the mother of Jesus the man" as if Jesus Christ isn't God.
I asked for scripture to prove your point, that is not ignoring what you said, its asking you to prove it through scripture. Should be easy if its there.

I never said Jesus isn't God, not once. God was before Jesus came to earth as a man, while Jesus was still God, Mary is the mother of Jesus fully man Acts 1:14, no where does it say she is the mother of God. If you have scripture that says otherwise, I would love to see it.

I agree lets get back to the topic if we don't have scripture to prove our argument.
 
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Clare73

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Jesus said those who believe in Him, present tense. James said that believers can fall away resulting in condemnation.

“My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”
‭‭James‬ ‭5‬:‭19‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
An erring (wandering) Christian is one of two things:
1) a professing Christian whose faith is not genuine (Heb 6:4-8, 2 Pe 2:20-21), and the death (v.20) is the second death (Rev 21:8), or
2) a sinning Christian who needs to be restored, and the death (v.20) is physical death (1 Co 11:30).
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Sorry, I still do not understand your reasoning/explanation. There are for example wrong citations of Jesus or wrong order of events, which is obviously an error. In Greek manuscripts, not in translations only.
The Bible is inerrant, the humans who read it, apply it and interpret it rarely are.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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I only care what the bible says. There is no scripture that says Mary is the Mother of God (that she existed before God of Creation) . Mary is human and teaching anything different is in contradiction to God's Word which is what we should follow. Jesus never elevated Mary the way so many people do now. It's really a sad teaching, one she probably would be mortified of.
When people disrespect another's mother, rarely ends well.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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When people disrespect another's mother, rarely ends well.
I’m not trying to be disrespectful, but I think Mary would even feel disrespected by this unwarranted worship. It’s essentially breaking the first commandment Exo 20:3. Jesus separated Himself from His earthy parents so He could do His Fathers work in heaven.

I understand what you mean though. :)
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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You are insisting on a sense of "mother" that you have been told explicitly is not the correct sense of the word here.
Maybe we need to stop feeding the trolls; the get bolder the more attention they get.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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I asked for scripture to prove your point, that is not ignoring what you said, its asking you to prove it through scripture. Should be easy if its there.

I never said Jesus isn't God, not once. God was before Jesus came to earth as a man, while Jesus was still God, Mary is the mother of Jesus fully man Acts 1:14, no where does it say she is the mother of God. If you have scripture that says otherwise, I would love to see it.

I agree lets get back to the topic if we don't have scripture to prove our argument.
Give it up, you are not going to get they answer your itchy ears want to hear; your repetition is getting silly.
 
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concretecamper

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The centurion who wanted Jesus to heal his servant approached Jesus in person (Matthew 8:5) or sent intermediaries (Luke 7:3)

Mark 5:21-24 indicates that Jairus approaches Jesus while his daughter is still alive and requests healing. Matthew 9:18 states that Jairus approaches Jesus after his daughter has already died, asking Him to raise her.
While He spoke these things to them, behold, a ruler came and worshiped Him, saying, "My daughter has just died, but come and lay Your hand on her and she will live." - Matthew 9:18

The deed overtook the words; so that the mouths of the Pharisees were the more stopped. For both he that came was a ruler of the synagogue, and his affliction terrible. For the young damsel was both his only child, and twelve years old, the very flower of her age; on which account especially He raised her up again, and that immediately.
And if Luke say that men came, saying, Trouble not the Master, for she is dead; Luke 8:49 we will say this, that the expression, she is even now dead, was that of one conjecturing from the time of his journeying, or exaggerating his affliction. For it is an usual thing with persons in need to heighten their own evils by their report, and to say something more than is really true, the more to attract those whom they are beseeching.
But see his dullness: how he requires of Christ two things, both His actual presence, and the laying on of His hand: and this by the way is a sign that he had left her still breathing. This Naaman also, that Syrian, required of the prophet. For I thought, says he, he will surely come out, and will lay on his hand. For in truth they who are more or less dull of temper, require sight and sensible things.
And whereas Mark Mark 5:37 says, He took the three disciples, and so does Luke; Luke 8:51 our evangelist merely says, the disciples. Wherefore then did He not take with Him Matthew, though he had but just come unto Him? To bring him to a more earnest longing, and because he was yet rather in an imperfect state. For to this intent does He honor those, that these may grow such as those are. But for him it sufficed for the present, to see what befell the woman with the issue of blood, and to be honored by His table, and by His partaking of his salt.
And when He had risen up many followed Him, as for a great miracle, both on account of the person who had come, and because the more part being of a grosser disposition were seeking not so much the care of the soul, as the healing of the body; and they flowed together, some urged by their own afflictions, some hastening to behold how other men's were cured: however, there were as yet but few in the habit of coming principally for the sake of His words and doctrine. Nevertheless, He did not suffer them to enter into the house, but His disciples only; and not even all of these, everywhere instructing us to repel the applause of the multitude.

- John Chrysostom
 
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concretecamper

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Healing the paralytic:

Jesus said to the paralytic, “Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.” (Mt 9:2)
Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” (Mk 2:5)
Seeing their faith, He said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven you.” (Lk 5:20)
To me, this is sort of like 1 person seeing an orange ball and the other seeing a piece of fruit
 
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The Liturgist

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They do not mean she was before God, only that Jesus was God and therefore they invented this controversial title to fight some historical issue. Not a good choice, imo, like many other things in "historical theology".

This is historically inaccurate. The title of Theotokos, meaning birth-giver to God, was in use long before Nestorius came to power, used violence to force people to refer to the Blessed Virgin Mary as “Christokos” and then to justify this change, he argued a separation between the deity and humanity of our Lord, and was subsequently deposed and anathematized for this at the Council of Ephesus, based on the consensus of the three other major patriarchates (including Antioch, where he had originally been ordained).

You should perhaps read up on ecclesiastical history. I would suggest the Cambridge History of the Christian Church (I have all eight volumes), the Oxford History of Christian Worship, and when it comes to Eastern Orthodoxy, The Orthodox Church by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, memory eternal, who contributed to the Orthodox Study Bible which I can’t recall if you have in addition to the NETS translation of the Septuagint.

I will let @Ain't Zwinglian and @MarkRohfrietsch recommend a good history of the Reformation and Martin Luther. As for a history of the Oriental Orthodox, my friend dzheremi can suggest one perhaps, but I am not going to tag him - the Coptic Orthodox Church (which included until recently the Ethiopian and Eritrean churches, but granted these what we call autocephaly, meaning ecclesiastical independence, in the 20th century) and the Syriac Orthodox Church and the Armenian Apostolic Church collectively have done much to preserve the ancient Christology that was upheld at the Council of Ephesus.

The problematic overreaction to Nestorius was Eutyches, who together with the sinister crypto-Nestorian Ibas, who played both sides of the fence, deceived various bishops which contributed to the disastrous EO-OO schism as a result of the Oriental Orthodox being falsely accused of Eutychianism (Eutyches taught that the human nature of our Lord was dissolved into His divinity “like a drop of water in the ocean” and this violates the fourfold principle of Jesus Christ being fully man and fully God without change, confusion, separation or division. Eutychianism, also known as Monophysitism, which degenerated into Tritheism, embraces the first two categories, and Nestorianism the subsequent categories.
 
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The Liturgist

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I never said He was two persons. Mary was one person only- human. You keep trying to make an argument that Mary was too- I would need a verse for that, she was His fully human mother, not Mother of God, she did not exist before the earth was created, and was born , God always existed therefore Mary cannot be Mother of God.

False, thar’s a strawman, we do not believe that the Blessed Virgin Mary was God, we do not believe that she existed before her birth a couple of decades before the Nativity of our Lord, and we do not worship her.

In saying she is the Mother of God, we are confessing the deity of Jesus Christ, who is fully God and fully Man, God Incarnate. We do not teach that she is the origin of the uncreated divine essence of the Holy Trinity.

Perhaps you should look into what we traditional Christians (including Martin Luther and most Lutherans and Anglicans, and also surprisingly enough John Calvin, both of whom recognized St. Mary as theotokos) actually believe before accusing us of Mariolatry.

The popular denial of the status of the Blessed Virgin Mary as Theotokos was the result of a renewed frenzy of anti-Catholicism associated with the rise of Restorationist churches in the 19th century, churches which also aggressively attacked Lutherans and other traditional churches, and which were usually either unaware of the existence of the Orthodox, or regarded them as heathen.
 
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