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Silencing Jordan Peterson... Canada takes action.

essentialsaltes

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Forcing re-education is taking your rights away is it not ?
No one has the right to be a licensed psychologist.
Is Jail not a limit on free speech?
Nobody in the OP is being threatened with jail.
Does freedom of speech in the constitution count for nothing these days ?
It certainly counts for nothing in Canada where the OP takes place.

If it took place in the US, it would still count for nothing, because our First Amendment freedoms are limits on what the government can do. (like throwing you in jail -- the government can't do that to you for saying stuff about gender.) The licensing body for psychologists is not the government. Neither is Twitter or ChristianForums or Google or Disney or the New York Times or your HR department.
 
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BCP1928

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But did those licensing boards do said revocations based on tangible professional standards? or merely subjective standards based on a clash of opinions over a controversial subject? In the case of the covid 19 misinformation, it was the former... there were doctors still wanting to push ivermectin and vitamin D supplementation as a prophylactic after it'd become established that those things didn't show any benefit.

Given that, for reasons I've listed in previous posts, the former is largely impossible for the field of psychology (since it's a soft science and very subjective, there really isn't a codified "standard of care" with regards to any actual "treatment"), it's obvious they were doing it for the latter...they even said as much.


As an example, let's say, hypothetically, Dr. Now (the Dr from the show "My 600lb life) started prescribing quack remedies for weight loss.

Suspending his license for that, would be very different than suspending his license because of a "Dr. Now's most savage moments" montage posted on Youtube that people thought wasn't very nice to obese people.
It's not about the opinions, as much as you would like to pretend, it's about the foul mouth. This is not a free speech case.
 
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Belk

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ThatRobGuy

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It's not about the opinions, as much as you would like to pretend, it's about the foul mouth. This is not a free speech case.
I already concurred earlier that's it's not a "government free speech case" as it's not the government making him do anything, it was just them refusing to get involved in the goings-on of a trade-based licensing entity.

However, claiming it's not about opinions is still where we'd disagree.

The fact that you're saying "it's because of his foul mouth" is, in and of itself, an opinion-based conclusion...there's no objective standard for what constitutes a "foul mouth" nor is there for "too mean to say on the internet"

  • Referring to Catherine McKenney, an Ottawa city councillor, who prefers to use they/them pronouns, as an "appalling self-righteous moralizing thing."
  • A tweet in which he used the dead name of actor Elliot Page
  • A tweet in which he referred to Gerald Butts, the former principal secretary of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, as a "prik".
  • His tweet in response to a Sports Illustrated swimsuit cover of a plus-sized model, in which he said: "Sorry. Not Beautiful. And no amount of authoritarian tolerance is going to change that."

All of these things that were the subject of the complaints about his social media interactions are in the realm of opinion. None are things that can be objectively proven or disproven by any tangible metrics can they?


These aren't objective things like say, a doctor posting on Twitter "you should ingest kerosene and inhale paint fumes out of a paper bag to treat your cancer" (which would be things that could be tangibly proven to be false)
 
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2PhiloVoid

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This is a wake up call...


Comment appreciated.


When they---whether in Canada, the U.S. or the U.K.---begin to censure someone like Malcolm A. Jeeves, THEN I'll be more concerned.

Until that time comes about, I'm in the middle ground on the topic of the censorship and/or deplatforming where professional, academic work is the locus.
 
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timothyu

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there were doctors still wanting to push ivermectin and vitamin D supplementation as a prophylactic after it'd become established that those things didn't show any benefit.
In other words those wishing to control the narrative at the time and using mockery, censorship (of comments like this) and abuse of power to do so, all as it turns out for financial gain.
 
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BCP1928

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What you mentioned here dovetails into what I was talking about before.

"not a professional thing for psychologist/licensed medical professional to do"...that statement is artificially elevating the practice/profession to something it's not. A psychiatrist would be medical professional, a psychologist is not.

Per the Cleveland Clinic: Despite the word “clinical,” a clinical psychologist isn't a medical doctor. They usually can't order medical tests, like blood or imaging tests, and they generally can't prescribe medication.

It's similar to how it comes across when people speak about chiropractors as if they're real doctors or medical professionals.

This piece by the LA Times summed it up pretty well

The dismissive attitude scientists have toward psychologists isn’t rooted in snobbery; it’s rooted in intellectual frustration. It’s rooted in the failure of psychologists to acknowledge that they don’t have the same claim on secular truth that the hard sciences do. It’s rooted in the tired exasperation that scientists feel when non-scientists try to pretend they are scientists.

That’s right. Psychology isn’t science.

Why can we definitively say that? Because psychology often does not meet the five basic requirements for a field to be considered scientifically rigorous: clearly defined terminology, quantifiability, highly controlled experimental conditions, reproducibility and, finally, predictability and testability.



So, in more accurate terms, it's "one self-righteous bloviating person gets license threatened by panel of other self-righteous bloviating people for reasons of political correctness"

Now, as I noted before, it's not a government thing, the government isn't censoring his speech, so any claims to the contrary by him or others are false. A industry-specific licensing entity is free to enforce whichever standards they'd like.

But that should be kept in its proper context, and the decision of such a panel shouldn't be elevated or attempted to used as some sort of "lofty high-level proof" of how right or wrong Peterson is in any of his statements.


If a panel that licenses Naturopaths decided to yank the license from another Naturopath for making a controversial statement, nobody would say "see, this proves that person was wrong, even this panel agrees" as to imply that it should carry the same weight as that of real doctors or scientists.
OK, I was careless in my use of terms. Jordan is a licenced mental health professional. But it doesn't matter, you are merely trying to create a distraction. He is certainly entitled to his opinions about trans in that capacity and to express them as well. But if he expresses them in public in a coarse and belligerent manner he should not be surprised to hear from his licensing board. He also has no grounds to complain about "free speech" when requested to accept training in how to express his opinions in a less coarse and belligerent manner by that board. This is not a free speech issue.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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OK, I was careless in my use of terms. Jordan is a licenced mental health professional. But it doesn't matter, you are merely trying to create a distraction. He is certainly entitled to his opinions about trans in that capacity and to express them as well. But if he expresses them in public in a coarse and belligerent manner he should not be surprised to hear from his licensing board. He also has no grounds to complain about "free speech" when requested to accept training in how to express his opinions in a less coarse and belligerent manner by that board. This is not a free speech issue.
To be clear, my objections have nothing to do with the terms you chose...it's the level to which stock is being put into the profession itself that I have qualms with.

The objection is with the concept that a psychology panel imposing the requirement on him is somehow a de facto validation of the people who opposed what he said or how he said it, or being used as a validation for viewpoint on certain issues that are opposite of his.

In other discourse, I've seen people citing this decision by that panel as a way to defend the progressive positions on certain trans issues by portraying it as if "see, the experts are with us, and the science is on our side... Jordan said XYZ, and it was so off base, the senior psychologists almost yanked his license for it"


To put it more succinctly...
A psychology review board threatening Jordan's license isn't the same "slam dunk against", or discrediting of, his positions as it would be when a MD has their license threatened by an actual medical review board on a medical matter.

This is, as I mentioned before, caused by society putting the profession on a higher pedestal than it deserves to be on.
 
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rjs330

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the Tweets in question were:

  • Referring to Catherine McKenney, an Ottawa city councillor, who prefers to use they/them pronouns, as an "appalling self-righteous moralizing thing."
  • A tweet in which he used the dead name of actor Elliot Page
  • A tweet in which he referred to Gerald Butts, the former principal secretary of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, as a "prik".
  • His tweet in response to a Sports Illustrated swimsuit cover of a plus-sized model, in which he said: "Sorry. Not Beautiful. And no amount of authoritarian tolerance is going to change that."


Also Per CBC:
James Turk, director of the Centre for Free Expression at Toronto Metropolitan University, said while he opposes many of Peterson's views, he's "deeply troubled" by the actions of the college.

"There's no reason whatsoever for the College of Psychologists to try to stop him from expressing those views."

"It's really worrisome … in a democratic society when a professional body feels it has a right to censor political speech of all of the members over whom it has regulatory authority."
So this appears to be exactly what I thought. No malpractice involved. They just didn't like some of his opinions. Free speech issues.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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So this appears to be exactly what I thought. No malpractice involved. They just didn't like some of his opinions. Free speech issues.
Correct, it doesn't sound like it involved any sort of interaction with a client (I'm assuming he probably doesn't do much of that anymore anyway)

Technically speaking, a licensing board doesn't have to abide by free-speech within the context of who they'll give licenses to.

But the flip side of that, is that a licensing board for such a subjective profession shouldn't be given the weight in public discourse that they're given... By that I mean, we shouldn't be caring as much about what they think as we would for what an actual Medical review board thinks.


Case in point, for those who are unaware... you can actually be a counselor or therapist without a license in some places.

And in other places, you can still do it, you just have to call yourself something else (like the ever so vague - "Life Coach")
 
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rjs330

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What's next? Restaurants being subject to health authorities? Lawyers being subject to the Bar? Why can't psychology be like unlicensed home contractors? Everything's fine as long as no more than 3 people stand on my deck.
What's next a restaurant being subject to health authorities who thought the restaurant should serve chicken? Maybe the bar who thinks that lawyers shouldn't defend Republicans?

That's tantamount to the same thing here.
 
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essentialsaltes

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What's next a restaurant being subject to health authorities who thought the restaurant should serve chicken? Maybe the bar who thinks that lawyers shouldn't defend Republicans?

That's tantamount to the same thing here.
Nonsense.

The restaurant/Jordan Peterson have demonstrated a lack of professionalism in their handling of raw chicken/social media. Consequently, they are required to take a refresher on professionalism in the proper handling of raw chicken/social media.
 
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rjs330

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Are the term's Hateful and Cruel not subjective interpretations?

Does it not need more than someone crying foul to mount legal challenge?

Have we not empowered the passive aggressive who have an agenda?

What is the end game? Folks being afraid to speak their mind so they are easier to control?
That's exactly the endgame. The goal is to shut you up so only their agenda is the one that's acceptable.
 
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rjs330

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I guess the end game is a society where some folks are marginalised by their behaviour. Which sucks for the people being marginalised but that's how society has always worked. Used to be you could go to jail for being gay, now you get sanctioned by your professional body if you say hurtful things.

Society is a rich tapestry.
Smart people would say both are wrong.
 
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timothyu

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And what the discipline was for.
No one says the motives of the discipliners is correct. It merely shows they defend the current and controlling narrative, right or wrong. That is where free speech comes in to not give them free reign. They wouldn't have disciplined anyone had this been pre-cancel culture era.
 
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rjs330

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It seems to me that he has lost sight of the impact his public statements might have, on people who come to see him as clients. Of course, if he's not seeing any clients any more (as someone claimed up thread) then his loss of licence to practice hardly seems to matter.
That would be up to the clients. No one is required to see him. Go somewhere else of you don't like his opinions.

Well apparently his loss of.license seems to matter to him. He didn't harm any of his clients. He didn't tell any if his clients to go harm themselves etc.
 
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