Question to protestants about Faith Alone

[The Liturgist]

I am not writing about decrees or canons, but about the Confession of Patriarch Dositheus. I have given you the decrees of the Jerusalem Council additionally for the sake of interest. But the symbolic book of Orthodoxy is precisely the Confession of Patriarch Dositheus.

I read and memorized the contents of the Synod of Dositheus in 2014 in my first year in Orthodoxy.

But my question remains - why is it that you initially identified as a Roman Catholic on CF.com and posted polemics in favor of Roman Catholicism, before suddenly and inexplicably embracing Eastern Orthodoxy?

And why don’t I see you participating in The Ancient Way subforum with myself and other Eastern Orthodox members as opposed to primarily posting on the main forum?

The issue here is that you seem to be advocating a view of sin which is primarily Roman Catholic and then attacking me and accusing me falsely of modernism, ecumenism and other bad things, and even going so far as to state that you know more about Orthodoxy because you are from Russia, which is a sentiment that it could be argued constitutes ethnophyletism, and you have also baselessly accused Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky of being a modernist, but are unable to say why.

a) One – about half of the twentieth century (1640) in Kiev, to protect the purity of Orthodoxy both from the opinions of Lutherans and Calvinists, and even more from the opinions of Roman Catholics and former Uniates. This is the “Orthodox Confession of the Catholic and Apostolic Church of the East.” At first it was considered at the Council of Kiev, and soon (in 1643) at the Council of Iasi; then it was considered and approved by all four Eastern Patriarchs, and unanimously accepted by the entire Greek Church. Finally, it was approved and approved for the entire Russian Church by Patriarchs Joachim (in 1685) and Adrian (in 1696), who even called this book “inspired by God” (of course, not in the strict sense), and by the Most Holy Governing All-Russian Synod...

b) Another – in the last half of the same century (in 1672), at the Council of Jerusalem, to protect the purity of Orthodoxy from Calvinist errors, under the title: “Exposition of the Orthodox Faith of the Eastern Church.” The truth and purity of this Exposition were again attested by all the Most Holy Patriarchs and other Archpastors of the Eastern Church when they sent it from themselves (1723) in response to the British Christians, as a true exposition and wisdom of the Orthodox faith, and at the same time they informed our Saint for the same purpose. To the Synod; received and witnessed and St. The Synod of All-Russia, which published this confession in Russian in 1838, under the title: “The Message of the Patriarchs of the Orthodox Catholic Church on the Orthodox Faith”, for the guidance of all Orthodox [3].

The rejection of Protestant errors at the Councils of Kiev and Jerusalem was excellent work on the part of those councils. At no point have I challenged that. Indeed, I have not even mentioned the Council of Kiev. I was specifically speaking about certain quotes you made from the Council of Jerusalem which were not primarily related to the rejection of Protestantism, but which indeed embraced a Western forensic hamartiology which disagrees with that of Holy Orthodoxy.

 

[ViaCrucis]

But my question remains - why is it that you initially identified as a Roman Catholic on CF.com and posted polemics in favor of Roman Catholicism, before suddenly and inexplicably embracing Eastern Orthodoxy?

Well that's certainly fascinating.

Time for me to make some popcorn.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[The Liturgist]

Well that's certainly fascinating.

Time for me to make some popcorn.

-CryptoLutheran

I would say its more unpleasant, but I feel like I am arguing against Roman Catholic forensic hamartiology. We have several pious Russian members in The Ancient Way subforum, and most of them do not venture out of it much, as well as a US Army Chaplain in the OCA, which is one of several jurisdictions in the US that were part of the Russian Orthodox Church before the rise of the Soviet Union caused massive fragmentation, but the OCA is noteworthy in that it was granted autocephaly by Moscow in 1970, and operates the massive Russian Orthodox church in Alaska, not to mention a great many of the ethnically Carpatho Rusyn churches in the area around Wilkes Barre, where the other direct descendants of the Russian Orthodox Church, namely ROCOR, the Antiochian Orthodox Church in North America, and the very small number of Patriarchal Parishes, can be found, and the area has the much deserved nickname of “Fourth Rome.”

 

[BNR32FAN]

While your statement is largely correct, my understanding is that the Roman Catholic conception of purgatory emerged a few centuries earlier, during the initial formative period of Scholastic theology that accompanied their schism with the Orthodox.

Yes I’ve seen evidence that it did begin to emerge long before it was officially established.

 

[jesholand]

Protestantism teaches that God forgives sin without punishing it with temporary punishment. Orthodox and Catholics, reading the Bible, see that this is not the case. We have many examples from the Holy Scriptures about temporary punishment. David is forgiven the sin of adultery and murder, but his child dies as punishment; David is forgiven his other sin, but as punishment in his country the plague spreads for 3 days; Moses and Aaron are forgiven the sin of unbelief, but as punishment they cannot enter the promised land; Every Christian is forgiven original sin in baptism, but death and the hardships of life remain as a temporary punishment.

I respectfully disagree. While Protestants don’t call it penance, they acknowledge the consequences of sin, sometimes leading to death (1 Cor 5:5) as a final act of mercy towards the sinning believer. This is to spare their soul eternal separation with God lest their habitual sinning lead to disbelief in God, thus damning themselves to hell. Leading up to this final outcome we see God employing discipline as a means of sanctification (Heb 12:1).

Penance carries with it the necessity that a believer must inflict punishment on themselves or be punished by an external force as a sign of being forgiven. Protestants would call this living in a broken and imperfect world still cursed by God due to the fall. This is why bad and good things happen to saved and unsaved people alike. Notice how I did not say happens to bad and good people since we believe no one is good (Romans 3:12).

The only real danger I see from penance theology is misapplying it thinking your hardships will atone for your sins. This brings to nothing the precious blood of Jesus Christ and basically means he died for nothing since it has no saving power. That is a lie from the pit of Hell and comes from pride, the original sin of Lucifer when he wanted to be like God. Pride tells us we have no need for Jesus’ atoning sacrifice or the free gift of God through faith in Him (the Son). We have then become like the guest in the parable of the banquet without wedding clothes who was thrown into outer darkness by the master. (Matt 22:11)

Many are called but few are chosen.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I respectfully disagree. While Protestants don’t call it penance, they acknowledge the consequences of sin, sometimes leading to death (1 Cor 5:5) as a final act of mercy towards the sinning believer. This is to spare their soul eternal separation with God lest their habitual sinning lead to disbelief in God, thus damning themselves to hell. Leading up to this final outcome we see God employing discipline as a means of sanctification (Heb 12:1).

Penance carries with it the necessity that a believer must inflict punishment on themselves or be punished by an external force as a sign of being forgiven. Protestants would call this living in a broken and imperfect world still cursed by God due to the fall. This is why bad and good things happen to saved and unsaved people alike. Notice how I did not say happens to bad and good people since we believe no one is good (Romans 3:12).

The only real danger I see from penance theology is misapplying it thinking your hardships will atone for your sins. This brings to nothing the precious blood of Jesus Christ and basically means he died for nothing since it has no saving power. That is a lie from the pit of Hell and comes from pride, the original sin of Lucifer when he wanted to be like God. Pride tells us we have no need for Jesus’ atoning sacrifice or the free gift of God through faith in Him (the Son). We have then become like the guest in the parable of the banquet without wedding clothes who was thrown into outer darkness by the master. (Matt 22:11)

Many are called but few are chosen.

Agreed. That is why we see many "righteous" people (in their own minds) among the goats at the final judgement.

 

[Mercy Shown]

So i was watching a random video on youtube featuring a guy named Jeff Durbin, who I eventually researched and found out he is a sidekick to James White's (i think he is at least). Anyway, i found him to be the typical arrogant protestant who just dictates, accuses, and insists what Catholics believe him no matter what is being told to him. I was listening closely as to what he thinks about the whole faith by works, and how he eventually tries to brag and praise himself about how he is the one truly saved because being a christian. So he speaks about the 7 sacraments, purgatory, and just how faith alone is just biblically true and tries to bully random catholics about it.

Here is the video for your reference:

So my question is this. If protestants believe that strongly about faith alone, then why do they care so much to the point that they feel the need to throw out condemnation, judgment, and demonizing at us for how we practice and worship God? Us doing the wrong thing like the sacraments, praying to saints, and whatever wouldn't mean much anyway since it's all about faith alone, right?

Many Catholics who are seriously in love with Jesus and the Father are very closely aligned with Protestants who are also in love with God. The "faith" in "faith alone" is a living faith that produces righteousness and righteous works in a person. If one's faith does not produce fruit, it is because it is dead.

It is a matter of order. If people believe that they come to Jesus, repent, and then do work, they will achieve salvation. In short, they believe by faith that receiving Jesus plus works equals salvation. If this is the belief, whether catholic or protestant, there is no real difference between them.

The Gospel also teaches works, but the order is different. When one receives Jesus by faith, one is given salvation as a gift, enabling and producing good works in them.

 

[The Liturgist]

I respectfully disagree. While Protestants don’t call it penance, they acknowledge the consequences of sin, sometimes leading to death (1 Cor 5:5) as a final act of mercy towards the sinning believer. This is to spare their soul eternal separation with God lest their habitual sinning lead to disbelief in God, thus damning themselves to hell. Leading up to this final outcome we see God employing discipline as a means of sanctification (Heb 12:1).

Penance carries with it the necessity that a believer must inflict punishment on themselves or be punished by an external force as a sign of being forgiven. Protestants would call this living in a broken and imperfect world still cursed by God due to the fall. This is why bad and good things happen to saved and unsaved people alike. Notice how I did not say happens to bad and good people since we believe no one is good (Romans 3:12).

The only real danger I see from penance theology is misapplying it thinking your hardships will atone for your sins. This brings to nothing the precious blood of Jesus Christ and basically means he died for nothing since it has no saving power. That is a lie from the pit of Hell and comes from pride, the original sin of Lucifer when he wanted to be like God. Pride tells us we have no need for Jesus’ atoning sacrifice or the free gift of God through faith in Him (the Son). We have then become like the guest in the parable of the banquet without wedding clothes who was thrown into outer darkness by the master. (Matt 22:11)

Many are called but few are chosen.

Agreed. That is why we see many "righteous" people (in their own minds) among the goats at the final judgement.

Many Catholics who are seriously in love with Jesus and the Father are very closely aligned with Protestants who are also in love with God. The "faith" in "faith alone" is a living faith that produces righteousness and righteous works in a person. If one's faith does not produce fruit, it is because it is dead.

It is a matter of order. If people believe that they come to Jesus, repent, and then do work, they will achieve salvation. In short, they believe by faith that receiving Jesus plus works equals salvation. If this is the belief, whether catholic or protestant, there is no real difference between them.

The Gospel also teaches works, but the order is different. When one receives Jesus by faith, one is given salvation as a gift, enabling and producing good works in them.

I feel compelled to point out that the theology present in this debate regarding penances and purgatory and so on was not, in my view, compatible with Orthodoxy, and indeed the doctrine of purgatory is expressly refuted in Orthodox soteriological texts. We do not have the forensic hamartiology that the Roman Rite has; we do not differentiate between venial and moral sin, we do not have indulgences or purgatory as such, but we do pray for the dead, but the reason we pray for them is not because we are concerned they are in purgatory.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I feel compelled to point out that the theology present in this debate regarding penances and purgatory and so on was not, in my view, compatible with Orthodoxy, and indeed the doctrine of purgatory is expressly refuted in Orthodox soteriological texts. We do not have the forensic hamartiology that the Roman Rite has; we do not differentiate between venial and moral sin, we do not have indulgences or purgatory as such, but we do pray for the dead, but the reason we pray for them is not because we are concerned they are in purgatory.

Thank you for expressing these significant differences between Orthodox theology and Catholic theology. Sadly, it seems that Catholicism continues to drift farther and farther from orthodox Christianity. I count myself as orthodox, although not Orthodox.

 

[Mercy Shown]

I feel compelled to point out that the theology present in this debate regarding penances and purgatory and so on was not, in my view, compatible with Orthodoxy, and indeed the doctrine of purgatory is expressly refuted in Orthodox soteriological texts. We do not have the forensic hamartiology that the Roman Rite has; we do not differentiate between venial and moral sin, we do not have indulgences or purgatory as such, but we do pray for the dead, but the reason we pray for them is not because we are concerned they are in purgatory.

Yes, but we have practices in the same spirit as those depending upon the denomination or church. For instance, some protestant churches that denounce penance teach that once we are initially saved, we must maintain that salvation through our works. And certainly, in most protestant churches, there is an unspoken hierarchy of sins. Another big dent for us protestants is our factions upon factions. How can we claim more truth when we can't live by the New Testament's teaching of one God, baptism, and spirit?

 

[boughtwithaprice]

I respectfully disagree. While Protestants don’t call it penance, they acknowledge the consequences of sin, sometimes leading to death (1 Cor 5:5) as a final act of mercy towards the sinning believer. This is to spare their soul eternal separation with God lest their habitual sinning lead to disbelief in God, thus damning themselves to hell. Leading up to this final outcome we see God employing discipline as a means of sanctification (Heb 12:1).

Penance carries with it the necessity that a believer must inflict punishment on themselves or be punished by an external force as a sign of being forgiven. Protestants would call this living in a broken and imperfect world still cursed by God due to the fall. This is why bad and good things happen to saved and unsaved people alike. Notice how I did not say happens to bad and good people since we believe no one is good (Romans 3:12).

The only real danger I see from penance theology is misapplying it thinking your hardships will atone for your sins. This brings to nothing the precious blood of Jesus Christ and basically means he died for nothing since it has no saving power. That is a lie from the pit of Hell and comes from pride, the original sin of Lucifer when he wanted to be like God. Pride tells us we have no need for Jesus’ atoning sacrifice or the free gift of God through faith in Him (the Son). We have then become like the guest in the parable of the banquet without wedding clothes who was thrown into outer darkness by the master. (Matt 22:11)

Many are called but few are chosen.

Sorry, wrong. Jesus died for nothing if we claim belief alone saves us but does not change us
We look at the Passion of our Lord. Every drop of blood in the agony, every strike of the scourge, every word of mockery and spittle in the crown of thorns, and every blow to the nails that bound him to the cross was unjust and undeserved
He tells us to deny ourselves, take up our cross and follow Him. It is an act of love to deny our fleshly desires and follow Him in penance by loving our enemies and taking unjust punishment, as He also says vengeance is mine, I will repay. Return not evil for evil but overcome evil with good.

If we just go around saying I believe in Jesus but do not mortify our flesh, follow Him in suffering and obey His commands, can we really say that we know and love Him?
I think it’s more likely that kind of thinking risks being the ones that say Lord, Lord and He says I never knew you

There is no danger in penance, except to our flesh, which we are supposed to be dead to anyway. Detach your hearts from material things and esteem of the world and embrace the path of the cross called to you by your loving Savior

 

[Mercy Shown]

Sorry, wrong. Jesus died for nothing if we claim belief alone saves us but does not change us
We look at the Passion of our Lord. Every drop of blood in the agony, every strike of the scourge, every word of mockery and spittle in the crown of thorns, and every blow to the nails that bound him to the cross was unjust and undeserved
He tells us to deny ourselves, take up our cross and follow Him. It is an act of love to deny our fleshly desires and follow Him in penance by loving our enemies and taking unjust punishment, as He also says vengeance is mine, I will repay. Return not evil for evil but overcome evil with good.

If we just go around saying I believe in Jesus but do not mortify our flesh, follow Him in suffering and obey His commands, can we really say that we know and love Him?
I think it’s more likely that kind of thinking risks being the ones that say Lord, Lord and He says I never knew you

There is no danger in penance, except to our flesh, which we are supposed to be dead to anyway. Detach your hearts from material things and esteem of the world and embrace the path of the cross called to you by your loving Savior

Well said. We don’t obey to earn salvation. We obey because of salvation.

 

[Cis.jd]

Thank you for expressing these significant differences between Orthodox theology and Catholic theology. Sadly, it seems that Catholicism continues to drift farther and farther from orthodox Christianity. I count myself as orthodox, although not Orthodox.

We share the same beliefs just under different perspectives. The apostles had different perspectives on things so it should be expected from the churches that came from them.

 

[Doveaman]

So my question is this. If protestants believe that strongly about faith alone, then why do they care so much to the point that they feel the need to throw out condemnation, judgment, and demonizing at us for how we practice and worship God?

I'm not sure why they do that, but what I do know is that we are told in Eph 2:10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works.

Faith alone saves us from death (justification) so that we may live a new life in Christ to do good works. We are not saved by the good works, but we are saved by the faith alone so that we may do the good works. The faith is followed by the saved followed by the works, and the works become the evidence that we are saved by faith.

The question then is, will we remain saved if we do not do the good works that we were saved by God to do? Will we remain an employee in the kingdom of God if we do not do the good works for which we were employed by God to do? Or will God fire us?

Us doing the wrong thing like the sacraments, praying to saints, and whatever wouldn't mean much anyway since it's all about faith alone, right?

Again we are told in Eph 2:10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

It is important to note in the scripture above that we are not saved to do our own good works which we ourselves prepared for ourselves to do, such as the sacraments, or praying to saints, or whatever. But we are saved to do the good works which God Himself prepared in advance for us to do, good works prepared by God for us to do even before we were saved.

It is, therefore, important for us as Christians to know what those good works are that God has already prepared in advance for us to do, otherwise we may end up doing unnecessary works of our own design.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Anyway, i found him to be the typical arrogant protestant who just dictates, accuses, and insists what Catholics believe him no matter what is being told to him.

I stopped reading here:

If you really want an open conversation with someone who has different beliefs or outlooks on Theology - it would be best not to start the OP with name calling and accusations.

Are there Protestants who come across the way you describe? Certainly, but there are also Catholics who do. In fact you aptly described my Catholic upbringing to a tee. I grew up in the Catholic Church in the sixties - not only were the nuns and Dominican Brothers those who dictated, accused and insisted that you believe them no matter what - they would also beat you with rulers and paddles if you stepped out of line.

So please - perhaps you can restate the OP in a less biased form.

 

[eleos1954]

Many Catholics who are seriously in love with Jesus and the Father are very closely aligned with Protestants who are also in love with God. The "faith" in "faith alone" is a living faith that produces righteousness and righteous works in a person. If one's faith does not produce fruit, it is because it is dead.

It is a matter of order. If people believe that they come to Jesus, repent, and then do work, they will achieve salvation. In short, they believe by faith that receiving Jesus plus works equals salvation. If this is the belief, whether catholic or protestant, there is no real difference between them.

The Gospel also teaches works, but the order is different. When one receives Jesus by faith, one is given salvation as a gift, enabling and producing good works in them.

It is a matter of order. If people believe that they come to Jesus, repent, and then do work, they will achieve salvation. In short, they believe by faith that receiving Jesus plus works equals salvation. If this is the belief, whether catholic or protestant, there is no real difference between them.

There is a difference ....

Roman Catholicism teaches the reality of a Treasury of Merit which is available to the faithful Roman Catholic to lessen his time in purgatory. Accessing the merit stored in this presumed treasury is transacted through an indulgence. (works of others that can be bought to lessen time in "purgatory")

So that's what you need to do if you want to come to God and be saved: Repent, have faith, and be baptized. If you do these things, you'll be in a state of grace, and as long as you remain in a state of grace, you'll go to heaven.

Baptism is required ... that is a work.

Protestants view is being baptized is a outward symbol of a change that has taken place inside.

 

[Valletta]

Baptism is required ... that is a work.

Protestants view is being baptized is a outward symbol of a change that has taken place inside.

1131 The sacraments are efficacious signs of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us. The visible rites by which the sacraments are celebrated signify and make present the graces proper to each sacrament. They bear fruit in those who receive them with the required dispositions.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - Paragraph # 1131

www.scborromeo.org

 

[Mercy Shown]

There is a difference ....

Roman Catholicism teaches the reality of a Treasury of Merit which is available to the faithful Roman Catholic to lessen his time in purgatory. Accessing the merit stored in this presumed treasury is transacted through an indulgence. (works of others that can be bought to lessen time in "purgatory")

So that's what you need to do if you want to come to God and be saved: Repent, have faith, and be baptized. If you do these things, you'll be in a state of grace, and as long as you remain in a state of grace, you'll go to heaven.

Baptism is required ... that is a work.

Protestants view is being baptized is a outward symbol of a change that has taken place inside.

I am not talking about theology. I am talking about personal beliefs. A Baptist may be taught once saved, always saved, and yet not believe it personally.

 

[Cis.jd]

I stopped reading here:

If you really want an open conversation with someone who has different beliefs or outlooks on Theology - it would be best not to start the OP with name calling and accusations.

Are there Protestants who come across the way you describe? Certainly, but there are also Catholics who do. In fact you aptly described my Catholic upbringing to a tee. I grew up in the Catholic Church in the sixties - not only were the nuns and Dominican Brothers those who dictated, accused and insisted that you believe them no matter what - they would also beat you with rulers and paddles if you stepped out of line.

So please - perhaps you can restate the OP in a less biased form.

Jeff is an arrogant protestant. those nuns of yours were also arrogant and they should be put in their place. These days, do they go around abortion protests just to gloat about knowing God more than the other christian?

 

[boughtwithaprice]

I'm not sure why they do that, but what I do know is that we are told in Eph 2:10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works.

Faith alone saves us from death (justification) so that we may live a new life in Christ to do good works. We are not saved by the good works, but we are saved by the faith alone so that we may do the good works. The faith is followed by the saved followed by the works, and the works become the evidence that we are saved by faith.

The question then is, will we remain saved if we do not do the good works that we were saved by God to do? Will we remain an employee in the kingdom of God if we do not do the good works for which we were employed by God to do? Or will God fire us?

Again we are told in Eph 2:10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

It is important to note in the scripture above that we are not saved to do our own good works which we ourselves prepared for ourselves to do, such as the sacraments, or praying to saints, or whatever. But we are saved to do the good works which God Himself prepared in advance for us to do, good works prepared by God for us to do even before we were saved.

It is, therefore, important for us as Christians to know what those good works are that God has already prepared in advance for us to do, otherwise we may end up doing unnecessary works of our own design.

This whole faith alone question is a distraction so much so that it can be a deception. People think that faith is a mere mental ascent. “I believe in Jesus and use my tongue to speak of Him, so I am saved”

Faith is not belief in Jesus, as even the demons have that, rather faith unto good works is believing Jesus when He tells us to do something . He tells us to give up our selves, deny ourselves take up our cross and follow Him. Do we do that, or do we think we know better? Personally, I do not want to get the the judgment seat of Christ and the only words I could think to say were, “oh you were serious about that?”

He tells us to love our enemies, return not evil for evil, bless and do not curse. Do we do that? Are we even able to do that? God will give us the grace, if we ask.

It is simple to receive. We ask in humility. Humility is bowing to a legitimate authority. Not my will, but thine be done. But how can we accept legitimate authority if we recognize no authority but ourselves, because all we have is sola scriptura?

I know what I did. It was humiliating, but I repented and asked for forgiveness and my mouth was stopped. It was at the moment of my surrender that I received the grace to cleanse me from my sin.

The authority comes from the Apostles. They were the ones that were given the great commission to make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

If you want to see what they say then read the Demonstration of the Apostolic Preaching by
Iraneus from the second century

James says we are not saved by faith alone, and Paul tells us if we have faith to move mountains but have not charity, we are nothing, so he doesn’t teach faith alone either.

When we surrender and are baptized we receive the gifts of Faith, Hope, and Charity, but the greatest of these is Charity.

Charity is as the two great commandments teach. Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself. We love God by studying His commandments and subjecting ourselves to them, not by just pretending to believe, wagging our tongues and doing nothing except making excuses

God gives us enemies to reveal things about ourselves. Ask yourself, who are my enemies? how do I love them? If you don’t know, then you need to repent and pray for God’s mercy.

Stop thinking of yourself and spend time in the simplest of good works which are prayer, fasting and almsgiving.

We do not tithe, because everything we have belongs to God, we are not to use it for our own lusts. Tithing is not actually giving 10% to God, rather it is keeping 90% for yourself. We don’t have to keep a sabbath, because Christ is perpetually in our hearts when we surrender all to Him. Read Iraneus and it will explain it all

we must learn to serve, not be served