Discussion of Foreknown/Foreknew

[FutureAndAHope]

Predestination I believe is the plan God has for those who will believe, not the plan to “make” people believe. I take two of the passages regarding Predestination (our destiny in Christ), and give it meaning.

Eph 1:3-12 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us [both Jew and Gentile, mankind in general (1John 2:2, 1 Timothy 4:10, 1Timothy 2:3-6), those who will believe] in Him before the foundation of the world [His plan was laid out before creation], that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined [created a plan for] us [both Jew and Gentile, mankind in general] to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself [God purposed the cross before creation], that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things [Jew and Gentile, those who will believe] in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined [having a plan laid out for us] according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.



Rom 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew [would trust in Christ (John 14:15-26)], He also predestined [planned] to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined [those He planned salvation for], these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

The Early Church made it clear that Foreknowledge is not fore-choosing. Using the terms foreknew, and foretell. Making statements like:

Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165]

... Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be... (Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho, Ch 140)



Foreknowledge is not seen as fore-choosing. But rather knowing some people will be a certain way.

I said briefly by anticipation, that God, wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may know by whom they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be judged by Him, if they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully, unless we repent beforehand. But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’... (Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho, Ch 141)


The word of God knows some will be evil, but God did not make them that way. They are able to repent. Justin also states, as do many, that free will is not overridden by foreknowledge, and that salvation is not fatalistic.


But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made (Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 43)

 

[Josheb]

Predestination I believe is the plan God has for those who will believe, not the plan to “make” people believe.

Who makes sinful Christ-denying people believe?

 

[Clare73]

God's foreknowledge (prognosis) in Scripture is of his own works, not of man's works:

GOD'S FOREKNOWLEDGE: (as distinct from man's)
Ac 2:23: "This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men (Gentiles), put him to death by nailing him to the cross."
Ac 4:28: "They did what your power and will foreordained (beforehand) should happen."

**In the two above verses, who determined the events God foreknew would happen to Jesus, was it man or God?

Is 48:3 - "I foretold the former things long ago, my mouth announced them, I made them known; then suddenly I acted; and they came to pass."
Is 37:26 - "Have you not heard? Long ago I ordained it. In days of old I planned it; now I have brought it to pass."

**In the above two verses, who caused the events that God foreknew and foretold would happen, was it man or God?

Ac 15:18 - "Known to the Lord from all eternity are his works."

God's foreknowledge concerns events that God causes to happen.
And the elect "according to the foreknowledge of God" are elect because God causes (chooses) them to be so for his own purposes, just as he chose Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

God knows in advance what is going to happen because God has willed that it shall happen.
So in the Bible, God's foreknowledge is about what God is going to do, not about what man is going to do.

So "those whom God foreknew" in the Bible means those whom God had chosen to infinitely love and to determine their saving destiny in advance.
So that God's foreknowledge of the redeemed is an infinitely loving foreknowledge of them which saves.

In love - God chose to love us, not because of anything in us, not because we were lovable or worthy, but simply because he chose us (Dt 7:7).
God's infinite love for the redeemed is grounded in his goodness, not their goodness.
He loves them because he is good, not because they are good.
God's plan, before he ever created anything, was from the corrupted fallen, hopelessly lost human race headed for eternal destruction, of which you were a part, he would save you . .(some, but not all).
So God chose us from all eternity before time ever began.

"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you," (John 15:16).

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Who makes sinful Christ-denying people believe?

God opens man's ears to instruction, but they still have a choice to make.

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

Whether we keep the command delivered to us determines our outcome.

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

God's foreknowledge (prognosis) in Scripture is of his own works, not of man's works:

GOD'S FOREKNOWLEDGE: (as distinct from man's)
Ac 2:23: "This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men (Gentiles), put him to death by nailing him to the cross."
Ac 4:28: "They did what your power and will foreordained (beforehand) should happen."

**In the two above verses, who determined the events God foreknew would happen to Jesus, was it man or God?

Is 48:3 - "I foretold the former things long ago, my mouth announced them, I made them known; then suddenly I acted; and they came to pass."
Is 37:26 - "Have you not heard? Long ago I ordained it. In days of old I planned it; now I have brought it to pass."

**In the above two verses, who caused the events that God foreknew and foretold would happen, was it man or God?

Ac 15:18 - "Known to the Lord from all eternity are his works."

God's foreknowledge concerns events that God causes to happen.
And the elect "according to the foreknowledge of God" are elect because God causes (chooses) them to be so for his own purposes, just as he chose Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

God knows in advance what is going to happen because God has willed that it shall happen.
So in the Bible, God's foreknowledge is about what God is going to do, not about what man is going to do.

So "those whom God foreknew" in the Bible means those whom God had chosen to infinitely love and to determine their saving destiny in advance.
So that God's foreknowledge of the redeemed is an infinitely loving foreknowledge of them which saves.

In love - God chose to love us, not because of anything in us, not because we were lovable or worthy, but simply because he chose us (Dt 7:7).
God's infinite love for the redeemed is grounded in his goodness, not their goodness.
He loves them because he is good, not because they are good.
God's plan, before he ever created anything, was from the corrupted fallen, hopelessly lost human race headed for eternal destruction, of which you were a part, he would save you . .(some, but not all).
So God chose us from all eternity before time ever began.

"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you," (John 15:16).

God certainly has an eternal plan, but it does not negate man's free choices. To foreknow something, just means in a past time God knew a particular fact.

As for a flexible plan, take King David as an example:

Psa 139:15-18 My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them. How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God! How great is the sum of them! If I should count them, they would be more in number than the sand; When I awake, I am still with You.

Yet we know God did not plan his adultery. Because that would make God responsible for David's sin.

Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

When David sinned God changed His plan for David.

Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! Thus says the LORD God of Israel: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. I gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your keeping, and gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if that had been too little, I also would have given you much more! Why have you despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in His sight? You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword; you have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the people of Ammon. Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me, and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.’ Thus says the LORD: ‘Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, before the sun.’ (2 Samuel 12:7-12)

We often think of God's planning in a linear fashion, but God is powerful enough to have a flexible plan. See The Way and Free Will for my thoughts on God and planning.


As for the verse:

"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you," (John 15:16).

We don't go choosing God, God has to reveal His purposes to us. It does not mean we don't have a decision to make.

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

 

[Clare73]

To foreknow something, just means in a past time God knew a particular fact.

No. . .
The meaning of the word prognosis (fore-knowledge, used only of divine foreknowledge) is, "God's knowledge of what he is going to do."
That which "is according to the fore-knowledge of God" is that which is according to what God is going to do, not what man is going to do.

Ac 15:18 - "Known to the Lord from all eternity are his works."

Is 48:3 - "I foretold the former things long ago, my mouth announced them, I made them known; then suddenly I acted; and they came to pass."

Is 37:26 - "Have you not heard? Long ago I ordained it. In days of old I planned it; now I have brought it to pass."

 

[FutureAndAHope]

No. . .
The meaning of the word prognosis (fore-knowledge, used only of divine foreknowledge) is, "God's knowledge of what he is going to do."
That which "is according to the fore-knowledge of God" is that which is according to what God is going to do, not what man is going to do.

Ac 15:18 - "Known to the Lord from all eternity are his works."

Is 48:3 - "I foretold the former things long ago, my mouth announced them, I made them known; then suddenly I acted; and they came to pass."

Is 37:26 - "Have you not heard? Long ago I ordained it. In days of old I planned it; now I have brought it to pass."

I have no problem with God planning out things long ago. As for your definition of foreknowledge meaning "God's knowledge of what He is going to do"

Do other Greek writers agree with that? No.

... Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be... (Rev. Dods 1867, Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho, Ch 140)

The second quote shows us he believed even those foreknown to be evil could repent if they so wished it.

I said briefly by anticipation, that God, wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may know by whom they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be judged by Him, if they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully, unless we repent beforehand. But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’... (Rev. Dods 1867, Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho, Ch 141)

In both of the examples above where foreknowledge is mentioned as "foreknown to be unrighteous", "foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked]", in both examples it IS NOT referring to God making them so. Foreknowledge is a knowledge of something, not a "knowledge of what God is going to do".

 

[bling]

Who makes sinful Christ-denying people believe?

All sinful Christ denying people can believe (put their trust) in something made of wood, stone, flesh or spiritual. Directing this God given "faith" toward the Creator of the Universe is the only way to receive His help and until our sinner becomes harden he has the burden of sin and needs God's help.

 

[BBAS 64]

Good day, FAH

Are you talking about the noun or the verb "foreknow" seems you jump to predestination not sure why you jumped.

In Him,

Bill

 

[Josheb]

God opens man's ears to instruction, but they still have a choice to make.

They choose to believe what God has made them believe?

God opens man's ears to instruction, but they still have a choice to make.

Prove it.

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

Whether we keep the command delivered to us determines our outcome.

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

Not a single verse just quoted states anything about the dead-in-sin sinner's choice. Why do you continue to read choice into God's word where God's word never mentions it?

Do you realize both texts in Post #4 are written about a people already living in a monergistically-initiated covenant relationship with God? Do you realized all the scriputres quoted in the opening post are words written by an already regenerate and saved person to already regenerate and saved readers about already regenerate and saved people? You've not only injected "choice" into God's word where it is not stated, you've also failed to correctly identify the audience contexts of the scriptures and mistakenly created a false equivalence by applying those never-mentioning-choice scriptures to the unregenerate unsaved, still-dead-in-sin sinner.

So, I will ask you again, Who makes sinful Christ-denying people believe?


.

 

[Josheb]

All sinful Christ denying people can believe (put their trust) in something made of wood, stone, flesh or spiritual.

That is not belief. Idolatry is the antithesis of belief, a perversion of God-given faith. The failure to understand that has always existed at the foundation of soteriological synergism. Faith is anthropomorphized and secularized. The all-domain-encompassing truth of "not of yourselves" is denied.

Directing this God given "faith" toward the Creator of the Universe is the only way to receive His help and until our sinner becomes harden he has the burden of sin and needs God's help.

And it would be the position of this op's author that it is the unregenerate sinner who directs his/her faith as his still dead-in-sin, sin-enslaved sinful flesh chooses. When asked to make the case for that position he quotes scripture that is ALWAYS about a covenant people, usually those who are already saved, and constantly adds "choice" to the scriptures he quotes where the word never appears. At best that is sloppy exegesis. At worst it is wretched false teaching asserted to deny the sovereign work of God and lead others astray. Neither is acceptable, and every Christian regardless of soteriological orientation should agree: sound doctrine is not made by adding to God's word things it nowhere states.

I've been discussing his views with @FutureAndAHope for years in multiple forums and his method is always lacking. He makes stuff up. He either cannot or will not prove his own claims (he often bows out of our conversations). If he follows in prior footsteps, he will not address the simple fact none of the verses he's used here in this thread mention "choice." The point will be ignored, and he'll continue with an inferential reading of scripture that denies what is explicitly stated. Watch and see.


And if I read the same, or otherwise faulty, misguided methodology with anyone else, I'll make the same observations. If synergism is going to be asserted, defended, and proven then it will have to be done better than this op does.

 

[Clare73]

I have no problem with God planning out things long ago.
As for your definition of foreknowledge meaning "God's knowledge of what He is going to do"

Do other Greek writers agree with that? No.

Other Greek writers (Peter, Paul, Luke) are also using the word proginosko, which refers to both human (Ac 26:5, 2 Pe 3:17) and divine (Ro 8:29 11:2, 1 Pe 1:20) foreknowledge,
as distinct from the word prognosis, which refers only to God's foreknowledge (Ac 2:23, 1 Pe 1:2), and that foreknowledge being of what he will do, as distinct from what man will do.

... Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be... (Rev. Dods 1867, Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho, Ch 140)

All fallen mankind, all mankind without exception, are unrighteous and condemned (Ro 5:18, 3:10).

It is only those who are born again by sovereign choice of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5), which sovereign choice is as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:6-8), that are righteous.

The second quote shows us he believed even those foreknown to be evil could repent if they so wished it.
I said briefly by anticipation, that God, wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may know by whom they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be judged by Him, if they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully, unless we repent beforehand. But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’... (Rev. Dods 1867, Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho, Ch 141)

In both of the examples above where foreknowledge is mentioned as "foreknown to be unrighteous", "foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked]", in both examples it IS NOT referring to God making them so. Foreknowledge is a knowledge of something, not a "knowledge of what God is going to do".

I'm sure you'll understand if the word of God written is my only authority for God's truth.

 

[bling]

That is not belief. Idolatry is the antithesis of belief, a perversion of God-given faith. The failure to understand that has always existed at the foundation of soteriological synergism. Faith is anthropomorphized and secularized. The all-domain-encompassing truth of "not of yourselves" is denied.

You are using your own personal definition of “belief”, people have lots of believes. You have made a distinction between a belief and a saving belief, and thus limit the ability to have a saving belief to just a few people God desires for some reason to provide this ability to, when all mature adults have a God given ability to believe and must choose to direct their faith toward God (it is up to the individual). Why would G od limit an individual’s ability to do such a thing?

And it would be the position of this op's author that it is the unregenerate sinner who directs his/her faith as his still dead-in-sin, sin-enslaved sinful flesh chooses. When asked to make the case for that position he quotes scripture that is ALWAYS about a covenant people, usually those who are already saved, and constantly adds "choice" to the scriptures he quotes where the word never appears. At best that is sloppy exegesis. At worst it is wretched false teaching asserted to deny the sovereign work of God and lead others astray. Neither is acceptable, and every Christian regardless of soteriological orientation should agree: sound doctrine is not made by adding to God's word things it nowhere states.

Dead: Jesus could use any words He wanted to describe the prodigal son in the foreign land but choose twice to have the father describe the son as “dead”, even though the father knew he was alive. While in the state of being “dead”, the prodigal son did stuff which caused him to “come to his senses” and turn to his father.

What all I am saying is: “From a state of being “dead”, we can still make free will choices”.

The son like all of us in a sinful state cannot make holy, righteous, honorable, worthy choices, but we can be responsible for choosing one sinful choice over another sinful choice.

The Prodigal son (like all of us) can choose to be macho and take the punishment we fully earned and deserve (starve to death in the pigsty), we can choose to not disturb our father further with undeserving requests nor feed our brother’s contempt. For purely selfish reasons (sinful reasons) we can humbly ask for just some undeserved life and be willing to humbly accept pure undeserved charity as charity.

Eph. 2: 1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Eph. 2 1-5 is addressing mature adult Ephesian (Christians who gratified the flesh, desired (lusted) and coveted), so it is not addressing babies. Christ made them alive while they were dead in transgressions (babies are not transgressing).

The “nature” in verse 3 is not referring to our sinful “nature”, but the wrath of God being the natural deserving result of disobedience.

 

[Josheb]

You are using your own personal definition of “belief”, people have lots of believes. You have made a distinction between a belief and a saving belief, and thus limit the ability to have a saving belief to just a few people God desires for some reason to provide this ability to, when all mature adults have a God given ability to believe and must choose to direct their faith toward God (it is up to the individual).

Now, I did not do that. God did.

God's word explicitly states none seek Him. None believe. From beginning to end the entirety of scripture juxtaposes multiple dichotomies and this op has ignored them all by treating covenant people and regenerate people identical to atheists.

Why would G od limit an individual’s ability to do such a thing?

That's a red herring. God did not limit anyone beyond the way He made creation (and all its creatures). Sin limits people's God-given abilities. The soteriological debate is waged over whether or not sin compromises the will to the point of making someone unable to come to God in their own might with their won sin-adulterated and limited faculties. The Augustinian monergist and Arminian subscribe to the doctrine we now call "Total Depravity," or the position sin has had a compromising effect so thorough that it prevents a sinner from coming to God unaided for salvation. The sinner can choose what color car to buy or which flavor of ice cream s/he prefers because human volition is not dead, but it cannot reach God salvifically. On the more Pelagian end of the spectrum (the Traditionalist and the Provisionist) say sin has not had a thoroughly preventive effect and the sinfully sinful sinner can still choose God with what remains of his/her volitional agency.

They believe that even though scripture never states any such thing.

It is a position that can be formed only by an inferential-only reading of scripture.

What God's word does state is no one seeks Him, No one can come to God unless the Father hauls the sinner to Jesus and gives the sinner to Jesus. God's word says the salvation that is by grace through faith is a gift from God and not of ourselves; we are created in Christ to do good works. The sinner's will is never causally attributed to the sinner's salvation.

Dead: Jesus could use any words He wanted to describe the prodigal son....

The prodigal son is a parable, not literal teaching. Never subordinate the literal to the figurative, symbolic, or allegorical.

in the foreign land but choose twice to have the father describe the son as “dead”, even though the father knew he was alive. While in the state of being “dead”, the prodigal son did stuff which caused him to “come to his senses” and turn to his father.

What all I am saying is: “From a state of being “dead”, we can still make free will choices”.

Not ot be saved from his sin. He can go back to his father, but his earthly father cannot save him and, salvifically speaking, none seek the Father. The unstated truth of that parable is that neither son possessed eternal life. Both were prodigal. Both were dead in sin and unable to rid themselves of that condition.

Eph. 2: 1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Eph. 2 1-5 is addressing mature adult Ephesian (Christians who gratified the flesh, desired (lusted) and coveted), so it is not addressing babies. Christ made them alive while they were dead in transgressions (babies are not transgressing).

You've just taken a passage written by a person who was regenerate and saved, written to people who were already regenerate and saved, and written about people who were already regenerate and saved..... and you've tried to apply it to the unregenerate, unsaved, God-denying, Jesus-denying sinful non-believer.

Every single person in Paul's audience, every single Christian reader in the original audience receiving that letter was once dead in their transgressions and sin and the gratified the cravings of thei flesh. It was God in His mercy that made them alive in Christ, not their will, not the will of the still dead-in-sin, sinfully-enslaved flesh of the non-believing sinner. Nowhere does that text attribute anything to the human will, especially not the sinner's will, but it does explcitly attribute their salvation causally to the mercy of God.

God did it = 100%
Sinner's will did it = not even a smidgen of a fraction of a percent .

And we know from Paul's exposition in Romans 9 that God has mercy on whoever He wills, and His mercy does NOT depend on who a (sinful) man wills or how s/he works. It depends on the will and purpose of God. No one can pit Ephesians 2 against Romans 9 and imagine they've formed sound doctrine. No one can take passages written about the already regenerate saved believer and apply them to atheists and think they have formed sound doctrine.

The “nature” in verse 3 is not referring to our sinful “nature”, but the wrath of God being the natural deserving result of disobedience.

.....which makes the person a sinner. The two are not mutually exclusive conditions. We are saved from sin and wrath, not just one or the other.

 

[BBAS 64]

God opens man's ears to instruction, but they still have a choice to make.

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

Whether we keep the command delivered to us determines our outcome.

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

Good day, FAH

Do you believe that before God opened their ears to hear... they had the ability to choose and did so freely?

In Him,

Bill

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Were speaking about the verses:

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

Good day, FAH

Do you believe that before God opened their ears to hear... they had the ability to choose and did so freely?

In Him,

Bill

It really does not matter whether you believe in original sin making them unable to choose, or whether there is still a measure of freedom in choosing; the fact remains that the person depicted in this verse has a choice to make. Note they can 1) obey and live, 2) disobey and die without knowledge.

Not a single verse just quoted states anything about the dead-in-sin sinner's choice. Why do you continue to read choice into God's word where God's word never mentions it?

You say the bible never mentions free choice. But here in the verse above is one clear example.

1) God gives His word
2) If the person responds to it they will live
3) If the person does not respond they will die

The doctrine of Calvinism, your doctrine, states that such a choice is never made. The Elect will always respond "Yes" yet this verse makes it clear that a person can respond in either way.

Which is similar to how salvation occurs.

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

1) God gives HIs word
2) If we keep it the Father will love us
3) If we despise His word no manifestation occurs

 

[BBAS 64]

Were speaking about the verses:

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.



It really does not matter whether you believe in original sin making them unable to choose, or whether there is still a measure of freedom in choosing; the fact remains that the person depicted in this verse has a choice to make. Note they can 1) obey and live, 2) disobey and die without knowledge.



You say the bible never mentions free choice. But here in the verse above is one clear example.

1) God gives His word
2) If the person responds to it they will live
3) If the person does not respond they will die

The doctrine of Calvinism, your doctrine, states that such a choice is never made. The Elect will always respond "Yes" yet this verse makes it clear that a person can respond in either way.

Which is similar to how salvation occurs.

Joh 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

1) God gives HIs word
2) If we keep it the Father will love us
3) If we despise His word no manifestation occurs

Good day, FAH

A simple yes or no will do if you don't mind.

Do you believe that before God opened their ears to hear... they had the ability to choose and did so freely?

All Calvinist believe a choice is made... the reason some do "yes" and some do "no is the matter of dispute.

umm ....no it does not say a person can respond either way, it does says there is a choice to be made and God commands based upon His authority. Old covenant just like the New God's command is repent and believe some do and some do not they do choose fore sure every one does.

Those that hate light will always choose the darkness they love, they can do no other nor do they desire other wise.

For sure we will get there.. so my question : Do you believe that before God opened their ears to hear... they had the ability to choose and did so freely?

In Him

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

Predestination I believe is the plan God has for those who will believe, not the plan to “make” people believe. I take two of the passages regarding Predestination (our destiny in Christ), and give it meaning.

Eph 1:3-12 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us [both Jew and Gentile, mankind in general (1John 2:2, 1 Timothy 4:10, 1Timothy 2:3-6), those who will believe] in Him before the foundation of the world [His plan was laid out before creation], that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined [created a plan for] us [both Jew and Gentile, mankind in general] to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself [God purposed the cross before creation], that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things [Jew and Gentile, those who will believe] in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined [having a plan laid out for us] according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.



Rom 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew [would trust in Christ (John 14:15-26)], He also predestined [planned] to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined [those He planned salvation for], these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

The Early Church made it clear that Foreknowledge is not fore-choosing. Using the terms foreknew, and foretell. Making statements like:

Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165]

... Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be... (Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho, Ch 140)



Foreknowledge is not seen as fore-choosing. But rather knowing some people will be a certain way.

I said briefly by anticipation, that God, wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may know by whom they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be judged by Him, if they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully, unless we repent beforehand. But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’... (Justin Martyr - Dialoque with Trypho, Ch 141)


The word of God knows some will be evil, but God did not make them that way. They are able to repent. Justin also states, as do many, that free will is not overridden by foreknowledge, and that salvation is not fatalistic.


But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made (Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 43)

Good day, FAH

Are you talking about the noun or the verb "foreknow" seems you jump to predestination not sure why you jumped.

In Him,

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Good day, FAH

Are you talking about the noun or the verb "foreknow" seems you jump to predestination not sure why you jumped.

In Him,

Are you referring to Romans 8:29? I am not a scholar of the Greek. But In Romans 8:29, the word “foreknew” is a verb. It comes from the Greek term “προγινώσκω” (proginóskó), which means “to know beforehand” or “foresee.” Specifically, it refers to God’s knowledge of people or relationships before they come into existence. So, when the verse says, “For those whom He foreknew,” it emphasizes that God knew in advance those who would accept His Son and be conformed to His image.

I still see that as consistent with my rendering that God actively knew there would be people who believed in His son. In His mind He was actively aware that people would believe.

 

[CoreyD]

Are you referring to Romans 8:29? I am not a scholar of the Greek. But In Romans 8:29, the word “foreknew” is a verb. It comes from the Greek term “προγινώσκω” (proginóskó), which means “to know beforehand” or “foresee.” Specifically, it refers to God’s knowledge of people or relationships before they come into existence. So, when the verse says, “For those whom He foreknew,” it emphasizes that God knew in advance those who would accept His Son and be conformed to His image.

I still see that as consistent with my rendering that God actively knew there would be people who believed in His son. In His mind He was actively aware that people would believe.

I like your username. It is a good reminder.
I suppose you chose it for that reason.

Just wanted to ask a question.
I agree with you that God's purpose includes persons who would be heirs with Christ in the kingdom.
However, does this mean that God knows those persons who will be heirs, or does it simply mean that God foreordained those who choose to accept the calling?
In other words, those who fit into God's purpose were not foreknown individually, but collectively?

Hope you understand.
Forming the question is a bit complicated.